2009/09/28

The Ten Biggest Mistakes Men Make with Women

Etienne Charland lists the top ten mistakes guys make with women, and Noodleboy seeks advice from experts on opening to overcome his approach anxiety.

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Articles & Content
Etienne Charland (www.shamanicseduction.com/):
The Ten Biggest Mistakes Men Make with Women

Finding a mate is one of the most fundamental aspects of life, but it is also a problem many people struggle with. Here are the ten biggest mistakes men make with women.

Mistake #1: Pursuing Women

Most guys will try all kind of things to get women, such as subtly hanging around a cute girl, walking across the bar to talk to a hot girl, trying to be funny and interesting enough to keep a girl's attention, trying to get a girl's phone number, or simply wishing to be with the girl next to them. The problem with all these approaches is that these men are pursuing women. Pursuing women mentally is as bad as pursuing them physically. No matter how you look at it, women are the ones who decide whom they let inside. They look for a man who walks his own path in life, who is centered in his own reality, and who is not thrown off-balance around her. When you pursue a woman, you are being reactive to her. You are not being yourself, and that's not attractive. Stop trying to get women, but instead let them join you in your life.

Mistake #2: Putting Women On a Pedestal

Most men will look at a hot girl and wish they would be worthy enough to be with such an incredible woman. If you say things like this, you are putting girls on a pedestal. When you do so, you are not being yourself, and that's not attractive. Some guys will even make funny negative comments to bring women down to their level. That might compensate for putting women on a pedestal, but it doesn't solve the problem itself. If you view her from a social perspective, there is no way you can compare with her looks and status unless you are a millionaire or a Hollywood star. However, all is not perfect underneath her skin, and she is too often hiding all kinds of issues and insecurities behind her façade. If you relate to her as a human being, you have your authenticity, ease for life, and carefree nature to offer. In fact, you can be at her level before you even say a word by not being thrown off at all by her presence. If you are feeling and behaving exactly the same before, during, and after meeting her, you are relating to her on an equal level, and that's very attractive. If you can do this, you will succeed. You will stand out, because it is hard for her to find a guy who is not being reactive to her.

Mistake #3: Viewing Women as Sexual Objects

With all the sexy skin shown to us everywhere by the media, we have been conditioned like dogs to view women as nothing more than sex objects. Women have also been conditioned to adapt to that image. When a woman walks around showing off her physical assets and wearing a lot of makeup, she has succumbed to the media's portrayal of women, and also views herself as a sex object. When she thinks of herself that way, it's hard for men not to view her that way too. Most men simply want to have their way with this type of girl, and afterward won't give her much of a second thought, much less want to see her again. The problem is, all this leads to fantasizing about women sexually and therefore creates a bigger disconnection between men and women. All this is social conditioning: it is not natural and does not lead to sex. Viewing women as purely sexual objects gets in the way of connecting with women because you then have an agenda and an attachment to the outcome. You are then trying to get something from her, and that is not attractive to her. Sex is the by-product of connecting with women. You connect with women by shining with your authenticity, integrity, and carefree nature, and by creating a safe space where she is free to like you or not. Once you are really connected to a woman and it feels like the two of you are alone in the world, a sexual relationship will develop on its own, and you won't have to force it.

Mistake #4: Pushing Interaction

Most guys fail with women because they try too hard to get them. Even trying a little bit is too much. It would be like saying your girlfriend is just a little bit pregnant. Either you are pursuing her, trying to get her, and pushing the interaction, or you aren't. When you push a conversation verbally or physically, women perceive the neediness behind it, and it repels them. When you are centered in your reality and you communicate with women without expectations or attachments, it leaves space for the connection to happen, and you don't have to push anything. If you try it and it doesn't work, it's usually because you still have subconscious attachments to the outcome.

Mistake #5: Using Pick-Up Techniques

To compensate for a lack of success, many men learn and use pick-up techniques. The biggest problem with these techniques is that they work once in a while, which makes men try even harder to get lucky again. Using tricks to work around your unattractiveness doesn't really solve your unattractiveness. Even when you get lucky, it rarely leads to a real connection or lasting relationship, because you show a façade that is not really yourself. It's just a matter of time before she realizes who you really are and she decides whether or not she likes you. What really happens is that if you interact with a woman and you act naturally and are not thrown off by her, then she will decide that she kind of likes you. If you play games, she will most likely see through it and will take one of the following actions: reject you; play games too and make you jump through hoops; or, rarely, decide she still likes you and go along. If you can differentiate what helps you from what hinders your success, you can keep your confidence and openness and let go of everything that comes from a state of mind of scarcity, such as pick-up techniques. Even if you get lucky once in a while with these techniques, it is way too much work, and you can't spend your whole life pursuing things.

Mistake #6: Valuing Outward Appearances and Independent Women

Many men consider women with perfect skin and toned, voluptuous bodies to be the best women to pursue for a sexual relationship because that's what we see all the time in magazines. Many men also consider independent career women to be the best-suited mates for long-term relationships. If that's the case for you, it makes you live with the fantasy of sex instead of really experimenting with it. Women have also been conditioned to adapt to those images by the media. That screws everything up, causing all sorts of problems ranging from breast cancer, to a divorce rate in excess of fifty percent, to the presence of more singles than ever in history. The truth is, women who focus too much on their perfect appearance do it to compensate for a lack of self-esteem, and they are disconnected from their authenticity and spontaneity. For that reason, it is hard to feel an emotional connection with them, and sex with them is usually average and mechanical. After engaging in intimate relations with these women, men usually dump them the next day, which lowers their self-esteem even more. As for independent career women, their sexuality is locked down because they are too logical and masculine. Relationships with them are often a power struggle and too often end up in divorce. For physical intimacy to be satisfying and for relationships to be healthy, you need polarity: a very feminine and confident woman who helps you develop as a man. You want authenticity, integrity, a carefree nature, lightness, and spontaneity in a woman to feel one with her. Just shifting the focus of what you value makes a big difference in what you attract into your life: fantasy or reality.

Mistake #7: Trying To Be Someone Else

When you view a man who is very successful with women, you may be tempted to imitate him in order to achieve his success. However, he is not successful because of what he's doing, but because of who he is and the way he lives his life. You and he have different strengths, weaknesses, and life paths, so your styles will be different. You can't try to be yourself and try to be someone else at the same time. When you are acting like someone else, you repress a part of yourself and something feels wrong. You don't want to be your weak self who fails either. There is a powerful and successful self deep inside you, but it is hidden behind fears, excuses, and social conditioning. That's the self you want to get in touch with. Charisma with women is not a skill to learn; rather, it's a natural ability you can uncover by unlearning what hides it.

Mistake #8: Viewing Sexually Explicit Videos, Magazines, or Other Material

Another thing too many men do is watch porn instead of having sex. Porn conditions you to live with sex as a fantasy instead of sex as a reality. It also conditions you to view women as sexual objects and to view sex as a “big bang” act. Sex is the by-product of connecting with a woman, and it is a mind-body-soul experience in which you can experience full-body orgasms that sometimes last more than thirty seconds. The sex shown in porn movies is nothing compared to what sex can be. Watching porn also conditions you to the wrong types of women and the wrong kind of so-called physical “intimacy” instead of valuing their authentic feminine nature. When you are not having sex, you are much better keeping your sexual energy and using it to move you forward in other areas of your life. The best thing you can do to bring sex closer to your reality is to stop watching porn.

Mistake #9: Feeling Bad About Failures

Another common mistake is to feel bad when you don't attract women, when you are single, or when women reject you. You feel bad because you are attached to the outcome, which is the result of having neediness inside you. That neediness is not attractive and does nothing at all to help you. To succeed, you have to let the neediness go. When you walk through the world and you don't care at all how women respond, that projects a totally different (and very attractive) vibe. When you come back alone from a bar, do you beat yourself up for failing, or are you smiling because you had such a great time ? Feeling grateful for what you have and feeling good about what you don't have yet will shift your reality.

Mistake #10: Saying “This Girl is Special”

Women want you to be the same before, during, and after meeting them. Sometimes you may meet a very attractive and nice woman, think “this girl is special,” and start behaving differently around her without realizing it. You then give her too much attention and change your plans too easily for her. You become responsive to her as the stimulus, and that's not what she wants. She wants a man who remains the same around her and who doesn't get too emotionally attached. Even when I could sleep with several women per week, I met a few “special” girls, and although I slept with them, things didn't work out afterwards with any of them. You are the rare catch; don't start behaving differently around the best women.


Noodleboy:
Approach Anxiety: I Can't Figure This Shit Out !

Ok, so I've been trying to figure out my AA. I'm hoping you guys can give me your thoughts and shatter some of my limiting beliefs. I can't figure this shit out !

I grew up very shy and reserved. I remember doing a class play and being scared shitless ... I was actually looking at the back wall while saying my lines instead of facing the other actors. I remember a public speaking class where I was always very nervous and my body felt like it was buzzing while I was in front of everyone.

I never got positive responses from women, even though I didn't really ever try. The only time I did try in high school, I was rejected badly. She was in my social circle, and after I told her “I like you,” she ran away and then totally ignored my existence. Even if I was right next to her and I asked her a benign question with 10 other people hearing me, she pretended no sound had come out of my mouth. This went on for months, until I told her I didn't like her anymore. But we're good friends now, and I never resented her for it ... it was just her fucked up way of coping with the situation.

Being a hermit playing video games for years didn't help my social skills (wink.)

I've gotten better, but I'm not sure if any of that created some limiting beliefs or negative anchors in my mind ...

I look back on the times I have cold opened (fewer than 10) and every time I was able to do it because:

It felt “normal.”
I felt like I had a “good reason” to open (asking directions that I actually needed.)
I felt like I had a “permission” to open (when I hosted a party.)
I didn't feel like I was being desperate, trying to get something from her / them.
There was something in our surroundings I was able to comment on, but with no premeditation.
It was totally spontaneous, I didn't think about it at all. It was like I was following the 0-second rule. It just came out of my mouth on its own.

Crossing the room to go chat up girls just feels weird and desperate to me. Imagine a girl going from group to group in a place chatting up guys. To me, she'd look desperate and low value. Same with a guy if he gets blown out a couple times. It's like a beggar came into the place and is asking everyone for change.

I cannot open with fake stuff. I once opened with “Where's X bar ? We're from out of town,” and I felt like crap the whole time because I knew it was bullshit. I can't bring myself to be dishonest like that ... I'm not a good enough actor (smile.)

Many girls have told me “You're shy, aren't you ?” even when I didn't feel shy and the convoLook up this term was flowing great (after an hour !) I guess I've got some body language ticks I'm not aware of. If I feel like my opener is fake or lame or if I don't give myself “permission” to be there, it will definitely show on my face that I don't believe in what I'm saying. And I hate that feeling.

The only way I can open with fake shit is if it's obviously a joke. I once was on Main Street and asked a girl "Hey, I'm lost, do you know where Main Street is ?" lol

What feels "normal" to me:

Talking to the girl in line behind me about something in our surroundings.
Talking to the girl at the bar next to me trying to get a drink.
Overhearing their convoLook up this term at a table next to us and jumping in.
Extended social circle (e.g. house party.)

I can talk to stranger girls no problem if someone else does the opening. I can jump in 2 seconds after he opens and I'm off to the races. One time I bumped into a friend at a quiet cafe and he was with a group of 7-8 girls, and I just took over and managed all of them, directed the convoLook up this term for a good hour or more, had one of them asking me to drive her home (out loud in front of everyone ... too bad she wasn't my type. I told her she lived too far out of my way.) I Facebooked a few of them (in front of all of the others) and Day 2ed one of them.

So it's not like I'm afraid of women, or afraid of talking to women. But I'm definitely afraid of opening women.

Why ?

Am I afraid to put myself on the line ?

Do I fear being judged as a weirdo ?

A beggar ?

Creepy ?

Yes.

... I think ?

The opener is the guy taking the risk of being judged. When I jump in after him, I don't bear the brunt of the judgment.

Again, I think that's where this fear comes from ... ? I can't figure this shit out !

It's funny because I consider myself very secure. Other people's opinions of me are no big deal to me. I laugh at insults. I've been rejected tons in my life and it doesn't affect me. I love criticism. Love it. It improves me. The times I opened and was rejected, I felt a huge burst of positive energy in me afterwards ... like an adrenaline rush. It was awesome. I've been through rejection and I was more than fine after ... so why do I still fear being judged ? I can't figure this shit out !

I'm not even sure it's women, because ... I can't even open guys ! Yes, I can talk to guys in line or at the bar or next to me ... but to actually walk up to a group of guys and talk to them is too scary for me. So it's definitely a shyness / being judged thing ... I think ? I can't figure this shit out !

So my questions to you guys that are fearless openers:

How do you get past the fear of being judged as creepy ?
How do you get past the initial non-verbal blowout (when they give you that “What a fucking creepy weirdo !” look ?)
What's you mindset when you go in ? Do you have 100% belief that your opener will succeed ? Do you even care ?
Any ideas on what the fuck is wrong with me ?

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65 comments

Edu's picture
Mon, 09/28/2009 - 07:51

Approach Anxiety: I Can't Figure This Shit Out !

Hey man,
While I was reading a few things came into my mind. Hope my opinion and advices lead you to new perspectives and help you solving your situation.

First of all, seemed to me that you live a lot in your past when it comes to dealing with women. I think we all have bad beliefs and bad conditioning in various areas of life, but the best way to deal with them is instead of living your past over and over, try to understand why these “bad” memories are coming to your mind, understand it’s nature and the message it’s trying to tell you. They are the key opportunities to solving all your problems.

So, don’t let your past run your present and future, start understanding and evolving what you learned in your past so you can start building your future right now.

One thing I can assure you… Understanding, evolving and letting go of the past is the best way to solving any hard time you are having in this area of life.
How to do it? Well, you can find a psychologist and start some therapy or you can search and buy some inner game materials.

While you’re working your inner game, another way of giving some massive improvement to yourself is PRACTICING. Now you have to catch back all the time you wasted playing the video game and learn how to be social. Talk to everyone in your life, from that crazy Chinese woman that works at your local market to the most amazing girls you feel attracted to. Just be social, you don’t need to hit on them but do it every day. Want to know something? When you start doing that you’ll see that the phone numbers etc etc will come naturally to you.

Doing what I told you (understanding your past and being social) takes a period of time, it’s not that quick fix that everybody nowadays are looking for, but it’ll help you a lot, you’ll get to meet loads of people and strengthen your friendship circle, and you won't need canned openners anymore because you’ll know how to socialize and just be yourself as the most evolved you can be.

Best regards,
Edu

Noodleboy's picture
Tue, 09/29/2009 - 20:29

>seemed to me that you live a

>seemed to me that you live a lot in your past when it comes to dealing with women

Yup. I hate repeating past mistakes so I always refer to my past experiences to avoid failure. It works for most areas of life except for the areas that require courage! And I when I read your line above I realized I also live in the future. I'm always trying to envision permutations of the future. And since I've been a hermit my visions of the future have no basis in reality. I think RSDLook up this term calls these "referential experience" or something.

>Talk to everyone in your life, from that crazy Chinese woman that works at your local market

See, just thinking about that makes me uneasy! I need to suck this shit up and just socialize. Fuck it's annoying having these weird irrational fears pop up. I feel like one of those people with a weird obscure fear that just rules their life. Grrr.

So yeah, I'll just practice. Enough trying to figure it out logically -- which I've been doing for a couple years! Logical introspection has always worked for me in the past, but this time I'm conceding defeat. :)

Thanks for the help!

Etienne's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 06:46

Inner work and action

There are a few good ways and many bad ways to heal yourself from the inside, so if what you did so far didn't work, you weren't on it. The most effective techniques are usually the simplest ones.

That said, there are people who do endless introspection and meditation as an excuse not to take any action in life. If that's the case, you need to go out there, take action and get out of your comfort zone.

There are other people who will puts lots of efforts into forcing things to happen, as an excuse not to deal with their inner issues. If that's the case for you, you should step back and take some time to look at it.

It can be good to go from one side to the other like a zigzag, extending your comfort zone and taking more action, then working on your inside and detaching yourself from outcomes, then extending your comfort zone even more, etc.

It seems like in your case, you need to stop thinking and take action.

I have a cousin who was doing eternal introspection and meditation as an excuse not to take any action in life. He was very intelligent, had lots of potential, but he wasn't working and not doing anything at all for YEARS. All my family tried to get him into action without success. One time we were talking and really got on a sensitive aspect of the problem, so I kept digging until I got to the root of his problem, which was beliefs he was subconsciously holding onto that didn't make any sense. I broke his mental pattern but nobody understood what I did. The next week, my parents called me to tell me he just subscribed to the University... nobody could believe it.

subnero's picture
Mon, 09/28/2009 - 09:07

Problems opening

Great points Edu.

I think an easy way to get around that is just to make a comment (maybe a remark bout the bartender or how you can't understand why one of the people there are wearing what they're wearing), with no intent of continuing conversation, and just move on your way. If you know it's not going to go anyway it will make it easier on you. Once you get into the habit of opening at all you'll be fine.
It also sounds like you're putting way too much concern into what people think of you. When you take into account that there are over 6 billion people in this world why put so much focus into that one person? Enjoy the fact that you're taking the opportunity to meet new people and if you don't connect with them you can move right on to the next person.
The last thing I can read from what you've sent is that it sounds like you're just out there trying to get laid instead of meeting people. It may not be your main intention when you're doing it, but it's still in the back of your mind and it's proving to be frustrating. When it all comes down to it this is about bettering yourself and applying these concepts to every aspect of your life. Just enjoy the ride and stick with what feels natural. You have to be true to yourself.

Etienne's picture
Tue, 09/29/2009 - 08:29

Unlearn emotional patterns

About Approach Anxiety, you may be trying to approach with more confidence, but I really think the problem isn't really about what you're doing. The problem is purely in how you are feeling. If you stop focussing on your actions and really have the intention of changing the way you feel about situations and your emotional patterns, then you will for sure get to understand how your emotions work and be able to let them go.

It's not about learning more. It's about unlearning something new everyday. Unlearning emotional patterns that hold you back.

JHewitt's picture
Tue, 09/29/2009 - 02:17

Offended.

"As for independent career women, their sexuality is locked down because they are too logical and masculine."

Two things worry me:
1) What's wrong with a woman having a career? What do you tell the little girl who dreams of someday growing up and being a doctor? "Sweetie, give up your dream or you'll die alone"?

2) 'Too logical and masculine'... Does logic have to be a masculine quality? There are logical females (think doctors, surgeons, teachers...). Everyone should strive to be logical in their lives, including women.

Etienne's picture
Tue, 09/29/2009 - 08:21

Here are some clarifications

Here are some clarifications on the topic of women.

1) I'm not talking about having a career, I'm talking about women who are more masculine and independent. However, some careers require more masculine skills and make women more masculine, for example lawyers and accountants. Still, I've seen women who can have those masculine skills during the day and leave all that behind to really be themselves outside of work, but that's hard to do.

2) I did an interview with Gina Cloud recently, who talks about the nature of women. One of the things she said is that the simplest and hardest path in life is to go from your head to your heart, and I couldn't agree more with her. I travelled the world for many years just to go from my head to my heart.

If you are interested in looking at it from a woman's perspective, there is no better woman than Gina Cloud to talk about it. Her definition of W.O.M.A.N. is Wild Open Magical Authentically-empowered Nectar. I did a terrific interview with her, which I may release publicly in the future.
www.redefiningwoman.com/

M's picture
Tue, 09/29/2009 - 09:54

Standing 'O'

As a newcomer here who was at first put off by what appeared -- to me -- to be a sort of 'get laid at all costs' sort of underlying attitude, I stand and applaud your top-ten list, Etienne. Simply outstanding.

I'm an old codger compared to most guys here, I'm sure, and find it more than a little bit disconcerting to be single again at this point in my life, but I do have this going for me: I have some substantial wisdom from 50+ years of being on the planet. Everyone that sticks around this long does, so that doesn't make me special. But it does make me VERY comfortable in calling B.S. when I see it, or at least being very direct when I disagree on a point of discussion.

And in my opinion there's nothing in that list that isn't pure wisdom...so again, nicely done, Etienne.

On the point of #6 ("As for independent career women, their sexuality is locked down because they are too logical and masculine."), I'm here to tell you from my own direct life experience that this is 100% on the mark. In my case, it was even my own fault to some degree: met my wife while she was studying to be a professional, and made it a point to get her back on track education-wise to achieve that -- even after we'd fallen in love, gotten married, and she'd let go of it. At the time, it seemed to me that she wouldn't be happy unless she'd achieved it.

Huge. 'Effing. Mistake. I made _plenty_ of coin myself over time, and our family life suffered powerfully for the fact that her career as an independent, self-employed professional forced her to be very linear and masculine in too many ways. It also simply undercut our ability to have children in terms of fundamental things like time & energy. We had just one child, who will now be at risk of being far too 'alone' in life after we're eventually both gone. And the wife is now an ex.

So, having paid some huge dues for poor life choices, I'm a huge fan of what Etienne has said in the top-ten list.

Thanks to all for this forum. It's a substantial support net for guys like me.

- M

subnero's picture
Tue, 09/29/2009 - 12:56

Gender roles are dead

I can see the rationale in where this is coming from, but I think you need to find a way to compliment the personality. There are men out there who are genuinely happy taking the back seat. As long as we are being ourselves and looking for what works it'll all pull together in the end. I think we need to support those we're involved with, especially in a marriage with children, and sometimes as a compromise we need to take a back seat to our "logical and masculine" sides.

No offense, but what it sounds to me is that you were so consumed with being the provider for the family that you weren't willing to let her become the "man of the household". It kinda sounds like you're blaming her for it falling apart as opposed to you two working at a solution that fits. There's no reason for a child to ever suffer that way in a divorce if even one parent supports that child. Sounds like you both let go.

It's a hard thing to change over to, but we live in a different era now. Women should be empowered and professional. Bring on the sugar mommas. I just think people have to do what makes them happy and be honest with themselves from the start. Never let go of your beliefs and if you're sacrificing instead of compromising then you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

Just my thoughts for whatever it's worth.

Etienne's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 06:13

Brad Pitt tried to make it work

Brad Pitt tried to make it work with Angelina Jolie and he failed, they are on the verge of divorce. If Brad Pitt can't make this kind of relationship work on the long-term, what makes you think you could? What makes you wiser than Brad Pitt?
tinyurl.com/c2ctt3

Nicolas Cage has been much wiser in choosing a very natural wife
www.people.com/people/article/0,,1113176,00.html

subnero's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 07:02

I'm glad you can use media

I'm glad you can use media hyped hollywood personalities as a reference. Don't they have a 98 percent divorce rate?

Edu's picture
Tue, 09/29/2009 - 14:26

Hi everyone, In my opinion

Hi everyone,

In my opinion it's not about the polarity itself but the knowledge of our purpose as living beings in all facets of life. It seems too "new age" but the message is huge if you put effort to understand it.
We all have masculine polarity and feminine polarity . In males, the dominant is steadiness (centered, directed, focused...) and in females, the dominant is flow (emotions, inspiration, energy, movement). The bottom line and most important of it is to really understand our purpose so we could apply more or less of these polarities.
In my perspective, people should stop thinking that we humans live in only one polarity or the other and start seeing the interactions between them when we do something (i.e. while building our careers or in a man-woman relationship). They all interact differently and in different proportions to complete each other.
Edu

Etienne's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 05:49

Going with the flow

I like the way you put it.

The main reason dating has become so complicated in our civilized society is that we learnt how to control everything and forgot how to go with the flow.

M's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 09:33

Micro vs. Macro

Nah, subnero...you're not tuning in to my situation, which may or may not be a voice of caution regarding 'gender roles' as you put it in a PC sort of way.

My wife was _consumed_ with her business start-up challenges, and yet at the same time didn't really want to even be doing it. School alone just about killed her, as she was absolutely struggling with doing that versus being a full-time mom. In the end (of the relationship) she was overwhelmingly unhappy that she'd decided to go the professional route rather than just be a loving mom.

There are plenty of other details, but this gives the gist of it.

IMHO, the selling of the 'supermom' meme ("she's a professional _and_ she has a husband and three happy kids!") is one of the greatest failures of so-called feminism. And don't ask me to validate or invalidate this...ask the women.

Final point: I've lived this first-hand, and one cannot argue with someone else's experiences. If you've actually _seen_ this work out differently, congratulations and good luck to you...but if your talking points are all some vague hypothetical, or how you think things 'should' be, I'd encourage you to get out of your head and talk to some adults who've actually been there and done that. This will require listening. ;-)

M's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 10:43

On supporting a bad idea

@subnero:

ON the point of listening -- go re-read what I wrote, and then respond if you choose to:

"...it was even my own fault to some degree: met my wife while she was studying to be a professional, and made it a point to get her back on track education-wise to achieve that -- even after we'd fallen in love, gotten married, and she'd let go of it. At the time, it seemed to me that she wouldn't be happy unless she'd achieved it."

That says very plainly that _I_ encouraged _her_ to go become a professional...so don't get your hands on your hips and be lecturing me that I wasn't supportive of her becoming a professional. I not only encouraged her to get an advanced degree (doctor of XYZ), I ultimately financially paid for 95% of it out of pocket. I hired a consultant ($20K) to help stand up her business. At her insistence, I actually worked as the director at her practice for a while to help get it back on track after she'd hired a doctor-from-hell (that I'd flat out told her not to hire in the first place). I also, after getting deeply in the chips, stayed home for _years_ raising our child.

So my support for her -- what I would call "socialized" (via modern feminism) -- 'need' to become a professional was more than just a tad bit...but in the net-net final analysis it was still just a very bad idea.

Quoth the Gump: "It happens." And I have no doubt that my tale doesn't have many, many similar flavors by others experiences.

subnero's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 10:38

Wtihdrawn

No reason to continue this. I have withdrawn what I wrote, not because I don't stand by what I think, but because it's just not worth having an argument on a public board.

M's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 10:27

Raising my child for years doesn't count?

Whaaat? You need to slow down and read -- and actually process the input -- before you write, subnero.

M

eightfold's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 11:38

A real man isn't threatened

First of all, anyone who has to preclude women on the basis that they are career minded or "logical" has a limited conception of what "feminine" means. If your own masculinity is incompatible with the competitive, ambitious, and logical qualities of your partner (and we ALL have them, men and women), I humbly suggest that it is you, not she, who is inadequate. A real man simply pursues his own life and allows the women he wants to be with to pursue theirs, and if it works, those paths are harmonious...whatever paths they may be. It's not the woman's job to "help you develop as a man" by being "feminine." If you're not ALREADY a man who is rock-solid in his own masculinity, you have no business being with a woman, career minded or otherwise. Period.

Personally, I am a very ambitious, driven individual. And I have a "career woman." And we have two kids. And you know what? It works out just fine. Because the things both of us want in life are very compatible, and I'm man enough not to be threatened by the fact that she has her own ambitions, her own competitive streak, and her own ability to be logical.

Etienne, with all due respect, your examples of Brad Pitt and Nicholas Cage are poorly chosen. You don't know either of these men or their partners, and even if you've met them once or twice, the rest of us haven't. These examples rely on assumptions about these relationships based on the perceptions of them the media has afforded us. Am I wiser than Brad Pitt? How should I know? I've never met him. Someone of your clear emotional intelligence ought to be able to pull real-life examples to illustrate his point rather than media-contructed hall-of-mirrors distortions of people none of us actually know or care about.

M, I'm sorry to hear that you had such a difficult time with your ex, but reading over your story, I can see you made a number of poor decisions that were your fault, not hers. Going down the list, you foot the bill, first for 95% of her education, then for this consultant she wanted...why? Hasn't she heard of student loans? Business grants? Why did you have to pay for everything? More to the point...why did you agree to? If my woman wants to back school, I'll be 100% behind that decision. And she'll be the one paying for it.

But what's more telling is that, in your own words, SHE didn't even really want to be doing this. And you went ahead and supported it anyway until you were up to your neck in it. Her problem wasn't being "career minded;" her problem was indecision, which YOU financed. All you had to do was say no. Frankly, an genuinely independent woman makes up her own mind about what she wants to do and is fiercely proud about being able to pay for it herself and not needing to rely on a man to do it for her.

You allowed yourself to be pressured into most of the difficulties her career created for you. The first thing you learn on this list, or anywhere in the PUALook up this term world, is that women will always try to control you and test you to see if you're man enough to say no...it doesn't matter if they're "career women" or not. Your problem wasn't that your wife was too "masculine;" your problem was that--respectfully--you weren't masculine enough. You should have said no, and you didn't.

subnero, it's not about "being the driver" vs. "taking the back seat." You are ALWAYS the driver of your own life, and if you're not, your masculinity is the issue, not hers. And unless you're looking for a cheerleader or a daughter, your woman should be the driver of HER own life. The criterion should not be whether she's "too logical" or "has a career;" it should be whether the path she's following is harmonious with yours. You don't have to be "PC" to understand that. You just have to be man enough to stay your course, and if she happens to be going in the same direction, great.

M's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 13:37

On Being the Man

No offense taken, eightfold...and I can tell that none was offered. I actually appreciate the honest feedback, and it certainly doesn't threaten my manhood to say that I made bad choices, even if the allegation is a lack of masculine decision making.

I paid for my wife's education and consultant only after I'd come about making a great deal of money on my own, and she was strapped with both large student loans and the need to have a domain expert help out. Money comes and goes, of course, but at that time her student loans were less than 1% of the money I'd made, and I took the path that I did out of love and the wish to de-stress my wife and mother of my child. Anyone else -- manly and otherwise -- would have done the same thing.

Having said that, the core problem I had -- and it's not a common one, so the lesson is mainly personal -- was that I'd made so much money that it was discombobulating. It totally changed the lay of the marriage land, certainly in terms of career issues...but it was honestly difficult to process that in the moment.

The consultant thing came up after all this had happened, and were I to replay that decision again, the choice I would make would be one of encouraging my wife to put the go-start-own-practice thing aside and to instead stay home and raise our daughter...and just work enough to keep her license and skills active. I'd even go so far as to say that this particular decision was the worst of my life, and would even admit to being too uncompassionate and 'too manly' in more or less over-encouraging my wife to stick with the path she'd chosen years prior in a far less emotional moment.

Getting back to Etienne's premise in the top-ten list, none of this would have happened if I'd simply made the decision from the get-go at the beginning of our 20-year marriage to just let her professional education thing go. In that moment, it seemed like what she needed and wanted to be happy, but in hindsight -- for both of us -- that path was too counter to male/female energy, and certainly too counter to a fulfilling family life.

'Harmonious' choices are sometimes only all-too-apparent in hindsight...and that's the fact of it.

Etienne's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 13:38

Divorce rate

Subnero:
> I'm glad you can use media hyped hollywood personalities as a reference. Don't they have a 98 percent divorce rate?

Something like that, while the divorce rate of America is somewhere between 50% and 80%, so it's not so different. I don't believe this to be normal, but this is our reality. I talked about the case of Brad Pitt because my friend Rion predicted years ago they would divorce, and he proved to be right. M lived the same thing, so did millions of men in America. Relationship with women who have masculine behaviors have proven to be very challenging on the long-term.

Eightfold:
> If your own masculinity is incompatible with the competitive, ambitious, and logical qualities of your partner

I'd rather have a cooperative, supportive, ambitious and inspiring woman. I believe in abundance so I don't see the point of competition anyway.

If you are very competitive, ambitious, logical and hard-worker, what's the point of it all? Do you work to live or do you live to work?

eightfold's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 14:18

>I'd simply made the decision

>I'd simply made the decision from the get-go at the beginning of our 20-year marriage to just let her professional education thing go.

I can see much of what you're saying, but that statement where I disagree with you. It's not your decision to "let it go"; your decision was whether or not to pay for it. The problem didn't come from her wanting to have a career. The problem came from 1) her inability/unwillingness to see that plan through herself, on her own resources, and 2) your willingness to finance it.

The woman you're describing isn't actually an "independent, logical, masculine career woman." You're right, perhaps, in your assessment that this is what she felt she "should" do for one reason or another, and maybe her personal path *should* have been to stay home with your kids. But to go from that to saying that "this is what all women naturally need/want, and the desire for a career is always socially programmed" or alternatively that "this is how all men who are with career women end up" is absolutely wrong.

>If you are very competitive, ambitious, logical and hard-worker, what's the point of it all? Do you work to live or do you live to work?

That is a false dilemma, as well as a cliche. I did not list among those qualities "being a workaholic," which I'm not, nor does having those qualities imply being one. Nor does competition necessarily arise from a scarcity mentality. Nor are women who are logical or independent necessarily incapable of being cooperative, supportive, ambitious (?) or inspiring.

Anyone, male or female, who cannot disidentify with their career in their private life has a problem. But both men and women should be independent, in and out of the office. I am completely uninterested in any woman who:

1) Expects me to support her financially
2) Expects me to solve her emotional problems for her
3) Makes me feel like she will wither and die if I'm not there
4) Is looking for a replacement "daddy"

An independent woman, to my mind, is one who has none of those faults.

Some women have a chip on their shoulder. Some women are bitter toward men. Some women feel they have something to prove. Women with issues like this, I think, are the type of women you're actually warning men about. But you're painting with an enormous brush by assuming that women with a career or who are logical or independent necessarily have these issues.

Etienne's picture
Wed, 09/30/2009 - 14:29

I agree

Eightfold wrote:
1) Expects me to support her financially
2) Expects me to solve her emotional problems for her
3) Makes me feel like she will wither and die if I'm not there
4) Is looking for a replacement "daddy"

Just so you know, I totally agree with those.

If we look at it from an inner emotional balance perspective, I need a woman who is really in touch with her feminine polarity. But she also needs to be able to get masculine energy from within herself otherwise she is needy and draining my energy.

Loveur's picture
Thu, 10/01/2009 - 13:30

Carlos

This is by far one of the best and most mature discussions I've ever read in the seduction community.

Carlos Xuma responded to Noodleboy in the latest letter:

www.cliffslist.com/letter/carlos-xuma-to-the-rescue

I'm curious to see what you guys think ! Agree ? Disagree ?

scaramouche's picture
Thu, 11/12/2009 - 04:27

btw

what's wrong with treating women as sexual objects? B-)

Etienne's picture
Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:42

It doesn't allow trust

Treating women as sexual objects doesn't allow the same authenticity, intimacy, trust and connection.

One woman I met yesterday who knows many pick-up gurus described it as "it works, BUT..."

scaramouche's picture
Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:04

well...

I think it allows the "thrust", what you meant is probably "trust". :P

Ok, fair enough, I was just kidding around.

I know you're right, but you probably tend to take things too seriously. ;)

littlemissilluminated's picture
Thu, 12/17/2009 - 15:52

Reality Check

Alright guys, first off although i agree with the majority of the points in this report, i really think there is a reality check needed... girls are not computers, there is no generic way to defrag every girl you meet. These "mistakes" are totally dependent upon you, the girl you are attempting to get with, and the situation.

For example, showing interest in a girl is definately a good thing. There are girls out there that are wayy to shy to ever walk up to you and say something, sometimes its not cause she hates you, it could be because she thinks your a God. With this said, trying too hard is a turn off. Where you draw the line between the two, well now thats completely up to you.

I personally, love guys that flirt. There is nothing sexier than a guy thats ballzy enough to walk up to me and tell me hes interested. Pick up lines, hell, if you have good ones, all the way.

A Second Thought
LittleMiss

scaramouche's picture
Thu, 12/17/2009 - 15:56

i like your profile picture...

...girls rule headless men :)) good point ;) that's about the only type of guy you're ever gonna rule

littlemissilluminated's picture
Thu, 12/17/2009 - 17:37

Oo really?

I'd say your flirting but then again, flirting through a blog is so cliche. Anywayys, haha you are clueless. Girls do rule. Seriously, we do, and you know it, and you kinda like it too:)

Besos
littlemiss

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Thu, 12/17/2009 - 16:59

^Respect and your own reality check ^

Alright look here just as my friend littlemisskickass has her opinion i have mine. just like her i agree with the majority of these statements made in this report, although sometimes pick up lines are cheezy and weird, sometimes if you come up with one that can get a girls attention then go for it, but the do's and donts with that are the fact that guys think that the only pick up lines there are, are the cheezy and sexual one, get a girls attention in a good way not bad. some pick up lines are cute and make a girl laugh and smile. be funny and stay on her good side never talk about her body like shes a sex toy or a manikin in a store window notice her for the good things and show her ur interested in her not her body. so dont use pick up lines unless you no that the girl wont take it in the wrong way.

with that said,you guys try way to hard to impress a girl. take a natural but bold approach with the ladies lol

PS: SCARAMOUCHE, dont talk like that about littlemisskickass because this blog is for comments on this report and comments on peoples opinion so respect people especially girls if you read what you read you might see why you need help getting girls .

With good intention..
Little.Ms.GiglEs

littlemissilluminated's picture
Thu, 12/17/2009 - 17:39

Smiles All Around

Hahaha. I agree, but calm down SCARAMOUCHE was joking. He knows girls rule, there is no discussion there.

Natural but bold, I like.

Besos
littlemiss

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Thu, 12/17/2009 - 17:51

no hard feelings

i no he was kidding im just saying because still thats kinda mean and uncalled for so w.e lol

PEACE LOVE...
Little.Ms.GiglEs

Etienne's picture
Thu, 12/17/2009 - 21:46

Ruling?

Sure, you can rule in your world, but you won't ever rule me in my reality. It's about synergy, not about compromise, domination, power struggles and games. At least not for me!

Here is a very inspiring video I produced recently that portrays what I mean by synergy
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYYpP2q6_bY

Peace and cake ;-)

P.S. It's always great to have women involved in discussions

The Last Word's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 12:05

Uh...wow

Wow. Is the so-called "seduction community" really THIS sad? A girl posts a comment with an avatar that says "Girls Rule" and rather than responding to what she's written, two seperate guys make a point of saying "U ain't gun' rool me." I mean, good thing you pointed that out, fellas. Otherwise she won't think your ALPHA, and before long, she'll be walking all over you, using you to buy expensive gifts for her while she sleeps with your best friend.

lol...srsly

littlemissilluminated's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 12:38

srsly

Haha. I can't really figure out if your criticizing the fact that they recognized the avatar, or their response to it. I'm glad you feel that way though, its an acurate dramatization.

Funny funny
littlemiss

scaramouche's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 13:57

btw

shut up, bitch! B-)

littlemissilluminated's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 16:16

Bee Tee Dubs

One word, swallow.

Your attraction is obvious,
littlemiss

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 15:28

BTW

dude really look we all need to respect each other on this site ok look (The Last Word) your awsome ok and SCARAMOUCHE ur being really mean ok this is no way to speak to a girl especially on you dont Know. its something called RESPECT ok so maybe you need to really check what u wrote in your past comments and ull probably see why u need help getting girls cuz apperantly your the only one who has no clue what there doing with your life...

Crude and unusual....
Little.Ms.GiglEs

PS: Littlemisskickass i no he wasent joking about that last remark he made of u but yeh lol ....

littlemissilluminated's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 16:17

Bee Tee Dubs

Love, you can't take this dude seriously. Stop sweating him.

Love love love
littlemiss

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 16:42

BEE TEE DUBBS #2

lol i no i just mean like dam some guys arent mature in this site lol like its funny .......

XOXO...
LITTLE>MS>GIGLES

scaramouche's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 16:55

ms. lol

where did you learn to spell? :))

because i'm really spellbound... B-)

littlemissilluminated's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 19:01

Your Mom

Your soo slick i can see the trail of slime. Maybe if i kiss you, you won't be a frog anymore:)

Spellbound
littlemiss

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 19:26

WHO CARES

at least i know how to talk to people unlike some people ok. at least you understood what i said , o wait i guess not because your still acting like an ass hole and a sexist idiot, i don't mean to ragg on you but you need to chill out and seriously be thankful for the fact girls are actually wasting their time talking to u, well im guessing we are the only girls to talk to you in fact. lol so yeh i will personally pay for a character upgrade for you ok.

Annoyed and agitated
Little.Ms.GiglEs

PS: you still think hes kidding right i highly doubt it lol ........ <3 ya

scaramouche's picture
Fri, 12/18/2009 - 20:00

:))

you just can't live without me, can you? B-)

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 00:20

:D

hey i dont no you i dont mean to be rude but u really need to learn to be kinder to people especially people you dont no ok . theres ur reality check. i wonder y u dont Post how old u are because u are probably young and naive. but that isent the point.

just all i advise a guy like you is to be more curtious and less of an ASS!!!...

living without u? i dont even no u
Little.Ms.GiglEs

scaramouche's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 07:24

replay/reply

@webmaster

shouldn't we have some rules about who can join the club and who can't? like, "illiterates are not welcome", or something in that style B-)

@ms.lol

i don't know what makes you think i might be even slightly interested in your opinion, on life, death or women, for that matter; the fisherman doesn't go asking the fish how to catch it; he asks other fishermen, if he really needs advice or a second opinion; moreover, i don't accept any advice i didn't ask for; take a hike ;)

littlemissilluminated's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 10:10

AHHH! Both of You Shut Up

Seriosuly, first off, besides the fact that i am feeling attention deprived, who is this guy talking to? me or gigles?

Secondly, gigles stop getting your panties in a bunch, he is definately kidding, and if he isn't than he isn't worth the time of day.

Gawd dammit you two act like your five.

Dizzy,
littlemiss

scaramouche's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 10:21

:))

why you act so wound up, are you jealous? B-)

well anyway, you're welcome to join us ;)

we'll have a threesome :D

littlemissilluminated's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 21:46

Haha, No.

I don't do threesomes. I hate to share.

Thanks, But no Thanks
littlemiss

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 14:29

eww

you are either insecure of your self or your just naturally an ass hole Mr.lol hope you look better then you are SMART because your definitely STUPID as hell

GEEZZZ....
Little.Ms.GiglEs

PS: littlemiss im straight its just amusing how much he try's to be right when everyone on this site would agree that he is definitely the most obnoxious person ever... LMAO ;)

scaramouche's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 14:34

holy cow

why do you have to get angry like this, are you having your monthly period or smth? :P

get some medication, it'll put you to sleep right up ;)

and btw: of course i'm right B-)

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 14:38

wow

im not angry at you at all i'm just pointing out the obvious lol i'm a happy bubbly person 24/7

you just need a pill to cure you of your attitude towards girls.

and BTW: your def.. not B-)

XOXO (sarcasm) LOL :))
>-) Little.Ms.GiglEs

scaramouche's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 14:41

well...

...if it's so bloody obvious, why do you feel the need to point it out?

feeling insecure? B-) don't tell me, don't tell me... :))

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 14:47

eww

i feel like i need to point it out because its something your need to understand and learn ok .

being wrong sometimes isent a bad thing in fact, your wrong right now and you wont admit it.

being self consious much== this little argument of yours is totally showing it sorry.

FEELS SORRY
Little.Ms.GiglEs

scaramouche's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 14:52

ok then

why do you feel the need to justify yourself before me? B-)

you're eating out of my hand as we speak ;)

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 14:55

when your right, message me k NOT!!!!

shows how much you know, imaturaty like yourself is really bad so im not ganna even like bother you really are a lost case lol

FINAL WORD
little.Ms.GiglEs

scaramouche's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 15:01

yes! :))

an old shark wins, a little mermaid loses - fair trade ;)

men rule B-)

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Sat, 12/19/2009 - 15:09

finally

the magic never dies yet the old fart never dies of his stench.....

HUMAN RULE no sex is better then the other
goodbye

tigershark's picture
Tue, 12/22/2009 - 01:11

Please Stop

you two are completely misusing the website. Just post an opinion or idea with regard to the article, not your opinion toward another user. I would really appreciate it if you would stop.

thankyou,
TigerShark

littlemissilluminated's picture
Tue, 12/22/2009 - 17:03

tigershark

its my fault, i corrupted this website by allowing her to use it*:( lmao this is pathetic.

besos
littlemiss

scaramouche's picture
Tue, 12/22/2009 - 17:08

i'm getting vertigo

dude, she's a strange breed... i think she suffers from multiple personality disorder or smth B-)

she's bad news, damaged goods... stay away from her :))

Cliff's picture
Tue, 12/22/2009 - 17:16

Comments

Guys and gals,

These comments really don't need to be read by everyone, do they? If you want to insult each other that's up to you but please send these messages privately. We'd like to see comments on the site that everyone can benefit from. If we can focus on just posting good, useful and constructive comments, that will be great and make this a spectacular place for everyone to enjoy and learn from.

Thanks.

Clifford

little.Ms.GiGglEs's picture
Wed, 12/23/2009 - 01:45

wow

way to talk behind me its nice lol no worrys

Jeremiah's picture
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 22:39

This is some of the worst

This is some of the worst advice I've seen in a top ten list. Worst top ten ever! Why would you not pursue women? Whats wrong with walking up to someone atractive and trying to get their contact info? Horrible advice.

Etienne's picture
Tue, 05/04/2010 - 09:10

Great comment

I just got one of the most meaningful comments about pursuing vs not pursuing women.

"I can tell you what it is that happens when you’re focusing too much on what you want (this is called attachment) you are actually focusing on avoiding what you don’t want, when you’re attached to an outcome you may think you are focusing on what you want, but as a matter of fact you are focusing on what you don’t want with the intention of avoiding it. I have found that if I am attached to an outcome I start feeling bad, feeling bad happens only when you focus on what you don’t want! It’s that simple, yet being detached from the outcome needs to be trained and it happens when you’re moving your body instead of wanting to think out everything. I can laugh about this one cause I would know about it." -David