First impressions can be deceiving

Montreal readers of this, please contact me by email to be put on the separate Montreal list, which will advise you of various local events of interest. I know there are several of you on this list that are not on the Montreal list, but I don't have the addresses separated in a form where I can add you unless I hear from you.

Lew Payne (a real oldtimer who has just joined the list): I'm actually not "active" in Speed Seduction anymore, in the usual sense of the word... that is, I don't go out and try to pick up women anymore. In my profession, they come to me. I've been running various adult sites for several years now, and unlike most sites, we produce our own content rather than purchase it. As a result, I work with nude models on a regular basis. Yes, I still apply the principals of NLP and SS to get the girls to do what I want (such as fill their holes with a nice fat cucumber), but I don't have to "hit the streets." This will give you an idea of the girls I work with --

(local amateur girls) Speed Seduction does have its benefits, especially when you need to convince a girl to blow you on-camera and let you take a huge dump all over her face. At times like that, it still comes in handy.

D.S. I live in LA, have for coming up on five months. Women in LA are definitely into looking good. The standard is so high that even women that would probably normally be plain do stuff with makeup and surgery and clothes so they look good.

I think most of the 9's and 10's, model types are pretty fucked-up in the head. Really, really messed the hell up. Your best chance is probably in a non-pick-up environment. On the street, in a store, etc., but then again I think it's generally harder to get numbers in NPE's (non-pick-up environments).

There's a huge hierarchy to the bar and club scene. Unlike probably most big cities. Because the super hot, the really super hot, won't be at a bar or club with the great unwashed. Places like Skybar, the Sunset Room, the Viper Room, and surely more that I don't know about -- that's where a lot of these super-hot, semi-famous, TV actors or some models of some sort go.

Places like Saddle Ranch, Dublins, Myagis ( sp ?), Red Rock, etc. -- these are places where the great unwashed go.

So if you want to encounter a super, super hot brawd, you probably will have to manage to get into an exclusive bar or club.

So you want a Cindy Margolis? Good luck. I don't mean that to be limiting. Really, I don't. I think it's possible that an average guy could win over a super desired brawd. I used to be kind of skeptical about SS , but as I've been dating a lot lately, and getting laid too, I've realized that chicks don't give a shit about anything except how they feel. They don't even care about making YOU HAPPY, unless it will give them good feelings. To wit, the brawd I'm dating now, who's really into me, scarily sometimes, was telling me how before I picked her up she was reading about fellatio so she could better please me. Well, she's interested in doing so, pleasing me, I think, just for the feelings it will give her. And if you know how to talk to a brawd to induce these feelings (which thing I'm now learning to do), you'll be way better off than 999 out of 1,000 dudes.

But still. Realism is good at times, too, no? To get Cindy Margolis, or Heidi Klum -- that's some work for an average Joe Sixpack. Personally, I'm happy with one or two grades below the Heidi Klum (in five years I'm getting the Heidi Klum though!).

Take that Giselle brawd from Brazil or wherever the fuck. She's boning Leonardo DiCaprio. Say what you will about that man-boy, but he's famous as fuck, and he's supposedly knows how to have a pretty swell time, too. (Some stars are real homos, like Matt Damon, who lets his mom buy his fucking underwear!) And take Cindy Margolis. She's married to the president of Jerry's Famous Deli, which is this big restaurant chain kind of thing in LA -- and so this guy, I would guess, might be mafia (restaurants are laundries, you know?) -- so he's super fucking powerful, you know?

Anyways, I think to do well with your average hot-ass brawd in LA, you'll have to either be able to talk her pants off, or have the LOOKS so she will take them off willingly. Personally, I was born with good looks and I've cultivated them by a lot of time-consuming grooming (tanning, expensive haircuts, hair colorings, hair products, tweezing, skin medication) and stylish clothes (denim jackets, CK T-shirts, a wide variety of shoes) and lifting weights religiously, and running, and eating well -- so that I've now got a printwork and commercial agent, and my looks help me get my foot in the door. So I'm fortunate for this. But I also recognize that you have to be able to TALK WELL to brawds or they will leave you faster than a girl leaves Tom Green.

TGB404
> => I could have stayed if I knew the strategy to follow from where I left
> off, or from the time where she responded to my neg . Ideas?

Hey artist folks, do you really employ approaches the "people only try to pick you up" way? I don't think that can be progressed easily. Similar statements only block me from being direct and seem to induce good girl pretender behavior. I couldn't have followed on on that myself. But I wouldn't have gone away at that point because it validates what you told her: you tried picking her up, failed and went away, right? But maybe she wouldn't have come back. It was the worst possible moment: "I'm back. You told me about people who pick me up""Yeah, right..." fucked up IMHO.
> => My strategy is to deal two cards, a neg one and a positive one, and see
> which card she draws.

Max, the way she responded to your neg (great method) reveals she's a person moving away-from. You can scare her into doing things and she requires approval of herself. You could have liked her hairdo and lightly touched (support) her right away. Fluff.

As always when I am giving helpful advice, I have a request too. Like Ross, I have gotten women to go places with me only to find out it's not getting laid.. and so on right into my bed and I find I need to close before I am tired. It is degrading for me to start caressing a female in bed. That's too sexual too suddenly. I need closes. Lots of them. You contributors to this list mostly write about close or fail using magickal patterns. But how exactly do you close? I don't mean you to type out the link of the ASF Archive but to include how you close in your occurring field reports. I promise to write some soon myself but currently I don't want to bore you with my loser stories. How did you kiss-close this week?

Michael: In response to both Flyer's posting on the LA chick scene.
>Again, those who specialize in the LA scene please post.

I want to specialize. Anyone post who wants to head out to meet the best HB 's LA has running around and waiting for us.

I think asking if these women (in particular) are fucked up is irrelevant, many women are .. consider the 1's and 2's as opposed to the 9's and 10's. If you build in the right states, activate something new inside ANY woman she'll feel excited about you and sex with you like it was a life changing experience. Make it that.

On clubs: Alot of these chicks (9's and 10's) hang out at clubs, I don't care what their expectations were about their evening out prior to meeting me. The club scene is challenging everywhere, it's not a function of an HB . I watch tons of guys with more outright balls than me meet lots of chicks and leave without a number or an impression. Chicks like to play. A fun thing, is I like to use the AFC 's as my fodder and watch a failed PUA , congratulate the woman on having good taste and make a joke out of it. It's so obvious how some people are never going to connect in a meaningful way .. now, there's *other* people, you, me, lots of them, I think you know the difference when we feel that.

Food for thought: I don't put sleeping with a woman as the indicator of MY success in seduction (as opposed to getting lucky). Mine is when a woman tells me that she's never met anyone like me, that she feels like she's not in control but she doesn't care, or my favorite is that I surprised her/she can't believe it, etc. (of course, these are likely to occur after sex!!!)

Kitty: "She: Oh, you don't like my ear rings? => She drew the neg card. => I could have stayed if I knew the strategy to follow from where I left off, or from the time where she responded to my neg . Ideas?"

Let me start by saying I'm a newbie to the list, so if I sound a little naive, just remember first impressions can be deceiving : )

Why is it that women always (well, most often, anyway) tend to pick up negative comments? Same goes for this woman who was distressed about her nose because one guy insulted her about it. Sure, it was rude of this guy to do that, but come on, where is her self-esteem at, if she can take one little comment like that to heart? Her problems are deeper than her nose.

But back to Max and the bartender's earrings... Where to have gone from there? If it were me, I'd have wanted the guy asking me to follow up the negative with a positive, which you did (also tactfully changing the subject).

"Me: Yes, I don't . (true, I didn't like them and I thought they were too big) She: Those are the biggest I've got. It is the first time I wear them. Me: I see that a smaller set would allow more exposure to your face. By the way, let me ask you this; a lot of people seem to talk with you around here, how do you differentiate between those who are trying to pick you up (Pointing far to the right) and those who really want to get to know you ( SP )?"

Her comment "I guess I don't care" sounds like a brush-off to me...

In response to Sisonpyh: "All of the most extreme sounding things that I've written, when presented in a cocky and funny way are like a woman's ultimate dream live. Go and make them beg... it's damn fun."

And damn fun from a woman's point of view too... is it hot in here?

Seems to have been an earlier thread about being famous and what it does for women(?)... people have told my man he looks like Russell Crowe and/or Kurt Russell, which seems to work for him, too, empowers him, puts him up on their level (just watch out for that ego). Me, it's some psychological thing, coz I start thinking, "Hey, he looks like Kurt Russell, and he's mine... all mine... I can't be half bad then either..." and when women *feel* sexy, amazing things can happen...

Mind you, you can't just say "I've been told I look like Brad Pitt" ...obviously... I had one guy trying to pick me up, and, okay, he had a faint Scottish accent, but he says, "I kind of sound like Sean Connery, don't you think.." then he lowers his voice, "Mish Moneypenny...?" then he winked, and it was all I could do not to wet myself laughing...

Halbmike:
> The problem obviously lies with the chick, and not with the asshole.
> Sometimes neghits are necessary to get the female's attention. Jeez, this
> chick is 31 years old, and she takes what one guy says so seriously? She
> needs to grow up. Think about all the verbal abuse us men have taken in our
> PU attempts. You have to just dismiss it and move on. Are women that much
> different than men? If she is so messed up in her head that she can't
> dismiss that insult for what it was, then she deserves all the pain that she
> gets. It may seem cruel, but that's the way things are.

Dude, you are totally missing it. First, neghits are not necessary. Second, thinking that they are is a form of desperation that undermines you in several ways, including: 1) it really puts the power in the other person 2) undermines confidence/google 3) neghits aren't the best for rapport 4) they make you a bully 5) they are a form of supplication 6) they decrease your flexibility and learning because you miss out on better methods. 7) Often people doing neghits appear incongruent when they do it If you're going to use methods of influence then you need to be responsible for your communication. At many (perhaps all) of RJ's seminars he tells people that if someone is under your influence then they should also be under your protection. Neghits just make you an insecure bully. BEING THE MAN means taking responsibility for your communication. This creates a congruency, sense of confidence, and aura of personal power that draws woman like a magnet. As for this woman, I think most woman who receive a comment like that would probably be self-conscious to some extent, and it would affect them for a long time. I think the only question is how much it affects them. This woman is a very bright well-adjusted woman who has dealt very well with a horrible handicap. Unfortunately, because of her tragic past his comment was probably especially hurtful to her. However, when people first meet you don't always know if you're dealing with the fragile eggshell. I urge and implore you to reconsider your use of neghits, especially if they haven't yet gotten you what you are seeking, but even if you thought neghits could get you what you want you can find better ways. Just because I can physically force a woman to have sex with me doesn't mean that it is an acceptable approach, or that my self-esteem will be enhanced by raping someone. Sometimes psychological abuse is worse.
> I partially agree with you, but the problem with your approach is that it
> doesn't work with super HB 's or extremely confident women. The reason is
> that they already have all the power, because they are used to it. The other
> men always give them this power. You can't empower them because in their
> mind, they have more power than you. The neg is useful in cases like that.
> With a neg , you get her to fall down from her pedestal and realize that you
> are different and have more power than other men and her.

First, I only go for super HB 's who are extremely confident women. Nobody has anymore power over you than the power that you give them. It is all in your mind. The way to convey more power and show that you're different from other men is to act with more power. Also, most of the time you don't have to show that you have more power than either her or other men. You merely have to gain her respect. Remember this isn't about a power contest, this is about seduction. However, holding power is useful. Henry Kissinger said "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac." However, I don't think it got him laid a whole lot, but it probably helped. Some people are so focused on neghitting that they are forgetting about much more important concepts. Most importantly, I think seduction is about leading yourself and woman to wonderful, blissful, ecstatic states. When you become the link to her pleasure she will gladly spread her legs for you. Those of you who read Bishop's seductions will notice that this is one of the core elements of almost all of his masterful seductions. This is a primary function of his "Warmth Builder" and many of his other patterns. Another very important factor in seductions is being able to structure challenges and offer inviting opportunities. Structuring challenges will often do many of the things you guys are trying to do with the neghits, and accomplish those purposes in a much more elegant and effective manner. Challenges can be an effective tool for shifting the balance of power.
> Negging any part of someone's physique is BAD and WRONG, it may
> cause long term damage. I won't also neg on something expensive that a woman
> might have (i.e. Car, Furniture, ....) . I have no second opinion about that
> issue. What I do usually is negging on little items, like an ear ring,
> color of
> pants, color of manicure..... something that can be changed with no or
> minimal
> cost. I do have a good respect for your opinion and thoughts.

If you're going to neghit (which I don't recommend) I think these are great rules to follow

What hobbies do you have? I'm curious as to how many of you mention seduction. It seems that is a major hobby for many of you. Just reading Cliff's list, or some of these other newsgroups can take time. I find that mentioning this can be very useful. It can get a laugh, build trust, set the frame for your being a challenge, set the frame for your seducing other woman, set a frame for her to flirt with you or be sexually adventurous. It can open the doorway for her to help you with your hobby as a wingwoman or teacher. It can also open the doorway to lots of patterning. After all, she will usually smile and inquire about how you go about your seduction. This is gives you the opportunity to massively pattern her. I like to do takeaways here. While I pattern her with stuff I will challenge her by letting her know that much of what I say and do is only reserved for people who earn it. For example, you can do something like Bishy's Warmth Builder and then tell her in quotes that if you two were to be more involved you'd insert pleasure building language .....Take her to the brink of orgasm. Then, tell her and I'd do so much more but I'm not going to share it because for me seduction isn't about just giving pleasure. It is about giving and receiving pleasure while sharing something much deeper and more meaningful, and it is a privilege that people have to earn.