SPECIAL EDITION: DOC INTERVIEW
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The old websites will refer you now to this site. Those addresses include www.geocities.com/cliff604/CliffsList.html
CLIFF'S LIST TECHNICALITIES:
Here is the list of the last 5 emails that were sent out:
1) Rather soft and using the teeth and ending with a suction like kiss
2) I said (without thinking) NO!
3) Like a wild and woolly semiautomatic truck bomb!
4) Nice girls will buy you the kind of burrito you like and bring it over, even when you didn’t ask for it.
5) BUT DOES LOGIC mean anything to women who are in this state?...
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- This email originates in Montreal, Quebec, Canada - see the Lair section to read about activities in this and other cities.
New Dating/Seduction Seminars & Workshop in Montreal by DOC!
Doc, who many of you know from his all too rare but outstanding posts on this list, on Mystery's Lounge, and the Montreal Lair, is bringing his seminars and speed dating events to Montreal. Previously they were mainly held in Toronto as part of the Learning Annex, Doc is now setting it up here and plans to hold events on a monthly basis.
The website is www.set nalife.com. The first seminars should be held shortly in Montreal. Registrations available on the website. The events are Dating Secrets for Women, a 3 Hour seminar (cost $50) and Dating Secrets for Guys; a Guide to The Art of Dating (also 3 hours and $50). There will also be a speed dating event in the evening for $50. You can contact Doc by email at seduction.school@sympatico.ca
Full-weekend Dating Makeover workshops will be offered about 2 weeks afterwards (including a half day with a personal stylist, video tape analysis of body language, and live practice sessions with dating coaches – beautiful women who will give the guys on the spot feedback on how they come across and what to improve). Other Montreal dates for June, July and August will be coming up soon. As well, there are some Toronto and New York dates for this summer that will soon be posted. If there is a group of 10 or more guys interested in a seminar (or 5 guys for a workshop, he would consider making a special trip to their city).
This is a great opportunity to learn from a real master.
This is the special feature I have been telling you about. Enjoy and learn!!
Doc Interview:
Cliff: We are really pleased to be presenting an in-depth interview with Doc (many of you need to read this very, very closely, print it out, and put it where you can see it every day). Doc is a practicing psychologist, is known for his great interview with David DeAngelo as part of the Interviews with Dating Gurus series, he is a member of Mystery's Lounge, he has given seduction seminars to both men and women as part of the Learning Annex in Toronto, and is embarking on a new venture of dating and seduction seminars & workshops across North America for both men and women, including full dating 'makeovers' (with video analysis) and organizes singles events. The fall calendar has 2 full weekends of seminars and makeovers in Montreal on August 20-22 and August 27-29, and in Toronto on October 22-24. He also has 3 new books coming out this fall under the SETNA Dating Manual Series.
Volume I (to be released this week) deals with the psychology of attraction, first impressions, and working on your inner game, Volume II (coming in September) deals with tactics and strategies to go from meeting her to dating her, and Volume III will deal with Managing Relationships. For more info on these seminars, events, and books, see www.setnalife.com. However, he is probably most famous as the Montreal Lair member with numerous simultaneous girlfriends that he maintains for extended periods.
Doc, give us a little history of your development with the opposite sex, from where you were when you first started "dating."
Doc: I guess my background is a little different from most PUA
s. I was with the same woman for 12 years (from age 18 to age 30) - that's pretty much my whole adult life spent with the same woman. At around the same age most guys are out there sowing their wild oats and learning about dating, I was learning about how relationships work and creating deeply intimate bonds with women. Strangely enough, even though we are no longer together, my ex and I are still great friends and see each other regularly. In fact, I am still very close to just about every woman I've dated and have very very few women whom I've dated who no longer want to see me at all anymore.
At the same time, my profession as a psychologist really gives me some insight into the psychology of women and how they see their world because I get to hear the unedited truth from my female patients. It's really quite a privilege to hear what their truest feelings are about men. In fact, my start into the whole world of seduction and dating came out of my psychology practice while I was helping some male and female patients get back into the dating game and overcoming some issues they were having in their relationships (or lack thereof).
So, I got into the seduction world with a different background and a lot of experience understanding women and how to make relationships last longer and be more meaningful. Even as a PUA, relationships are still my specialty – it’s just that I don't necessarily have exclusive relationships with just one woman anymore. I try to have meaningful relationships with several women at a time. I do this in part because I don't necessarily believe that one person can fulfill all of my needs and interests.
Since I started getting involved in the seduction community several years ago, I have been with or dated literally hundreds of women – so I've sort of made up for lost time. Usually, I see several women at a time – sometimes, as many as 9 or 10 at a time in a sort of rotation, sometimes, that works out to more than 2 in a day, and once in a while, as many as 5 in a single weekend. Recently, I had a little party at my home where I invited ALL of the women I am currently seeing (and a few past girlfriends too) – boy was that fun, and Cliff, since you were there, you can attest to the quality of women who were present.
I have to say that ever since I was a teenager, I've always been a popular guy and I strongly believe in the importance of expanding your social network. I believe that for most guys, the easiest way to start improving their dating life is to start increasing their social network, which means, whenever you go out, try to meet as many people (guys & girls) that you connect well with and add them to your social network. It’s not rare for me to go out and get as many numbers from guys as I do girls – and NO, it's not because I'm going to date these guys. But, they'll invite me to their parties, and introduce me to their female friends, and I'll do the same for them. This is how I've met the vast majority of women I've dated in the past few years, hundreds in fact. When I separated from my ex, I pretty much lost my whole social circle because we had been together for so long, we shared just about all the same friends. So I had to start rebuilding my social circle from scratch and recreate a social life, and it re
ally didn't take long for me to be able to throw some parties where 150-200 people would show up. I believe that for EXTREMELY shy guys, this is probably a great way for you to start improving your skills – go out and sarge guys and expand your social network of friends.
Cliff: While that is certainly good advice, one significant advantage you have is that you have a place and the ability to throw parties - I have known others have found it difficult to expand their social circles without having the ability to reciprocate with new people by being able to invite them to parties. In other words, if you don't have a party to invite them to, they usually won't invite you to theirs. Any suggestions for guys in those situations?
Doc: Yeah, I've heard this before. While it's true that I have a cool pad that can hold almost 200 people during a party, I don't really think that has anything to do with it. I mean, I've sarged women at my own parties who didn't know that I lived there until later. You just have to get into this habit of calling up NEW friends every time you go out even if it's just to grab a bite to eat. And you have to get into a social habit: I mean how hard is it to pick up the phone on a Friday night after work and call a couple of people to join you for drinks or a bite to eat? It sure beats eating alone.
Last Friday was exactly like this: No plans, made 2 phone calls after work, and spent the evening at a table with about 20 people (2 old connections whom I had called, and 18 new ones - mostly attractive women) all very spontaneously because I had a plan to propose. And it is soooo easy to number close someone who has just become part of your social network, especially if you are stamped 'approved' by their friends, and you've spent the whole evening with them around a table full of new friends. All night, people kept calling their friends who were at our table, asking what they were up to, and since we had a fun plan, they would eventually join us. Every time somebody's phone would ring, the person on the other end would invariably come join us. And this all started with me only calling 2 people and having a plan. Eventually, people get into the habit of calling you up and asking if you know of anything cool going on. Even if it's not YOUR party, always have a plan. People are very attracted to leaders.
You know, people’s lives are generally pretty boring. They're CRAVING some excitement. So you could be their local excitement pusher, and you don't HAVE to throw parties in order to do it. You just become like a social center of gravity where cool and exciting things are always going on around you. And trust me, you could do all this within about 2 weeks to 1 month of deciding to do this and become a social center of gravity and make new friends. It's just a habit to get into. So you see, you can reciprocate party invitations in other ways: by knowing what’s going on, organizing outings yourself, bringing cool guys and girls to the parties you ARE invited to, and hooking people up in your social network with girls that you are not interested in (or introducing the girls in your network to cool guys). They are ALWAYS appreciative and will often reciprocate by trying to hook you up. But one thing is VERY IMPORTANT: You do not want to come across as a social leech. You HAVE to reciprocate a social favor: Either
by hooking them up, or inviting them to a party (even if it's not yours).
I rarely turn down an invitation. Last Saturday, I didn't have any plans, but ended up going to 3 different parties because of last minute phone calls I made or received. You have to get into a habit of saying ‘YES’ and making an effort to at least make an appearance to each event. If you start saying "no", or not showing up, you eventually fall off of people’s radar screen and people just stop calling you. If you are home alone on a Saturday night with no plans, ask yourself why this happened: Have you ever turned down invitations, been a flake, or become a social parasite and not returned social favors? If so, people are probably just fed up of calling you.
Sometimes it’s all very spontaneous and you could wind up having a great night out even though nothing was planned. And a great night out for me sometimes means just planting seeds. I won't close anyone, but I have a bunch of new prospects to follow up that week (either for closing or just social networking – with both guys and girls) and I'll schedule them in for drinks or a bite to eat on successive nights during the following week:
Monday though Friday. Don't get me wrong here: These are not ‘dates’ and I won't pay for their meals. This is just a chance to make and consolidate new friendships, even if it's just with new guys I've met.
I also think it’s important to have a lot of female friends hanging around that I really have no interest in closing. First of all, it creates a real mystique and makes your stock skyrocket in value in the eyes of women you ARE interested in (not to mention how you are seen by guys). My parties tend to have a disproportionate number of women, something like 3 girls for every guy and it often provokes the question from other women: "Doc, how many of these women have you dated/slept with? They all seem to know where everything goes in your kitchen." LOL. Second, all of these women also have friends. And if women think you are cool, they are dying to set you up with their friends. Third, and maybe most importantly, always being busy with social engagements means that you’re BUSY and POPULAR and that your time is very valuable. That’s very attractive. Women aren't going to be attracted to some loser or loner who is desperate for just anyone to take him out of his pathetic boring life out of his parents' basement.
Women want to latch on to someone with an exciting and fulfilling lifestyle. Remember, most people's (and women's) lives are boring and unfulfilled. And for women, the social world is probably their most important world. A man who is socially successful is more attractive than someone who is financially successful. Someone once asked me "how do you give the impression of being popular and busy?" Well, you give that impression by actually being popular and busy, and constantly having to make choices about which options you are going to entertain. That also communicates a lot of power. That is the value of social networking. When a girl tries to flake on me, I let her know very clearly that I am going to exercise other options for that night – sometimes I even tell her that she is now being downgraded to B-List, which means that she no longer gets priority for my social life anymore (parties, outings, etc).
So you see, there really is a use for all those women who once told you they "just want to be friends". Take them up on it. Turn them into friends and use them to expand your social network.
The other important thing is to have a really interesting life. One thing I practice religiously is: "BE INTERESTED AND YOU'LL BE INTERESTING". This means that the more things you are interested in in life, the more interesting you will be to talk to. I don't really run routines or scripts when I talk to people (guys or girls), and maybe I should. I'm interested and fascinated in just about anything: I've gone skydiving, scuba diving, white water rafting, rock climbing, trapezing (when I dated a circus acrobat), hot air ballooning; I'll go to poetry readings, classical music concerts, punk music concerts, cooking classes, art classes, photo classes, salsa classes, yoga classes ...... and these are all activities I will do in an average month! I have no end of things I am interested in. So I can carry a conversation on just about any topic. But more importantly, I'm open to trying ANY new experience and often playfully challenge women to make me experience something new. It is critical to have hobbies and inte
rests in life. Be mindful to pick ones that are social hobbies, not ones that you practice alone in your basement. That alone can help you build your network of friends enormously. Most often, my parties tend to be an opportunity where I bring together many different circles of friends from these different interests and activities.
Cliff: That's really exceptionally great advice, and I am sure the guys reading this who aren't doing this will be kicking themselves about how easy and obvious it really is. So now that you've clearly demonstrated how to completely turn around someone's social life, I want to turn to other things. One of the most important areas of being successful with women has to do with what is called "inner game." I remember from your DYD interview about your experience with the good looking client of your psychology practice who kept making "just friends" with women and not getting to have intimate relationships with them. Did the work you did with him change your own thinking and approach to dating, what was it before you treated this client (since you appear to have been involved in a very traditional one-on-one situation for such a long time with your ex-wife), and how did it evolve in your head? Basically I would like to know more about how your thinking changed from where you were in a very monoga
mous situation to breaking free of the politically correct thinking patterns.
Doc: Wow, that is a pretty heavy question because it touches on some very core issues. You’re right about my client: he was a very successful man in his early 30s, he was well educated, very athletic, good looking – had ALL the external things that guys would figure are important. But none of it counted for much with women. For me, this really drove the point home that WHAT you do is way LESS important than HOW or WHY you do it. This particular patient, although he was quite a catch now, had been a fat, pimply faced, nerdy kid with thick glasses in high school. No matter what everybody else saw in him and how successful he was, when he looked in the mirror he saw and felt like the same reject he had been in High School. Now imagine how this affected him with women. He was so sure that he would be rejected, that he never had the confidence to make a bold move or to try to move things to the next level. As a result, he kept falling into "just friends" Hell. He came off as needy, desperate, and
insecure and he would give women all of the power in a relationship. What if he could have actually seen himself as everyone else saw him? He probably would have been much more confident, played much harder to get, and made much bolder moves with women, in essence assuming from the start that if they were spending time with him, they were attracted to him.
Anyways, to help this client, I had to do A LOT of research on attraction and romantic relationships. Being a psychologist, I went to the scientific literature on the subject first. I can say that working with this client probably taught me more than it taught him, and I learned an enormous amount about the reality of attraction and how women ACTUALLY choose their mates. Forget about what women SHOULD be attracted to or say they are attracted to – it's all irrelevant. They don't know why they are attracted to certain men. Similarly, we are attracted to women that we know aren't necessarily good for us on an emotional or long-term level. That’s because women are attracted to 3 things: perceived qualities that are usually interpreted within the first seconds they meet you in their first impression, (and if you have these qualities, they are willing to overlook A LOT of defects), specific feelings that you elicit in them, and lifestyle. Notice that I did not say they are attracted to the person: As it turns out,
unless you are dating a yoga guru, most women are not really attracted to you as a person. They are attracted to qualities, feelings, and the lifestyle that they experience with you.
You could imagine what a shocker this was for me to learn. It went against my own personal paradigm – I'm a psychologist after all so I'm all about people and being Warm and Fuzzy. It really shook me up to believe that attraction could be so superficial and fickle. That attraction could be triggered in a few seconds based on first impressions. Worse yet, the qualities that women are universally attracted to (in every culture) are:
Dominance & Status Financial Success & Lifestyle Confidence Humor Authenticity
Nowhere on this list is: warm, fuzzy, caring and attentive – all qualities that might have made me a good person and a very good psychologist, but they certainly didn't make me attractive to women, not even my wife. When I took my own personal inventory according to these new qualities, it didn't take long for me to understand why my wife (whom I'd been with for 12 years) was no longer sexually attracted to me. I had been a great husband, emotionally supportive, caring, attentive, whatever – just not a very desirable man. One of my friends recently saw me interacting with my ex and commented that he thought that I validated her too much and maybe had too much rapport with her – so she ended up taking me for granted, no more challenge. Weird, huh? I bet my mom is still trying to figure out why that marriage didn't work out because it's not logical and I had done all the caring and 'nice' things that my mom taught me to do.
After working with this client, learning all of this research, I decided to teach this to other guys because it was just too important to be kept under wraps. I also realized through my discussions with my female patients how much they also need this kind of knowledge and so I started teaching dating seminars for women too.
I also started to implement all this knowledge in my own life. Wow! What a difference in my social life all of this made. I am at a point in my life where I am no longer happy living in La-La Land – a fantasy world that we all construct for ourselves based on how we would LIKE the world to be or how we believe it SHOULD be – which leaves us all frustrated and disappointed. I'm all about living in reality now. And for my social life, it means doing what it takes to get the results I want in the real world. So understanding the REAL psychology of dating gives me the tools necessary to survive in the REAL world, but it fundamentally took a paradigm shift in my own thinking.
Cliff: One of the things that I would like to you to explain more completely is your thinking and your actual procedures in keeping several girlfriends simultaneously. You have managed to keep women around for extended periods who are aware that you are dating other women at the same time. I am curious how you set these relationships up and how you deal with their inevitable objections to this. From what I have seen, some of these women fall deeply for you - how do you deal with this both in terms of your own feelings and theirs?
Doc: Another great question. The truth is that most of the time I am not
aware of what I'm doing on a conscious level – I guess that in that respect, I'm like most people. The difference is that my default setting is to create deep emotional bonds with people, including women that I'm dating. In fact, I've had to work at peppering that with some extra alphaness so as not to come across sappy. So the frame that gets established is one of a deep emotional bond in a casual relationship. I can tell you that most women have never experienced this kind of emotional bond with a man and it fulfills them in ways that they have craved their whole lives. In order to get that deep emotional fulfillment, they are willing to put up with a lot of crap and they never find it again with other men. How do I know this? Because, most women that I've dated (those that I'm no longer with) are still in love with me – and they will often call me out of the blue YEARS later, craving some more of that emotional bond. Just after the Christmas Holidays this year, something weird happened. I started to get ph
one calls from women I had dated a couple of years earlier. I had had NO contact with them for years, and a few of them went to some extraordinary lengths to find me again (one even called ALL of the Docs in the phone book till she found my parents - my number isn't listed - and this girl isn't exactly the type to need to chase men). With some of them, the romance had lasted 2 dates, or one weekend, but all of them would say the same things: that they had never felt that connected to someone before or since. The interesting thing is that they would crave it and run away from it simultaneously because it was too intense and too new a feeling. Younger women in their early 20s can't really connect well this way cause they have ADD and intimacy is difficult for them.
Most women have a lot of experience with two kinds of relationships: casual superficial relationships, and serious superficial relationships. Most men shy away from emotional intimacy and intensity of any kind, even in a long term committed relationship. Take my patient again, for example. He couldn't deal with the emotionally intense moments that lead to a first kiss, so he would shy away from that kind of intimacy and a door would instantly close inside the woman – the door to intimacy – so she would classify him as only FRIEND material. It was ok for him to want to f*** a woman, but he wasn't able to make love to her or become emotionally connected. Women crave emotional intimacy and will often use physical intimacy (i.e. sex) in order to get it. Most men crave physical intimacy and sex, so they will feign emotional intimacy to get it. Interesting conundrum.
If you really want to build relationships with the women you are dating, rather than just ONS, the key is building intimacy. This can also work in a context of multiple girlfriends. The word intimacy comes from the Latin 'Non Timo' which means without defense. So building intimacy in your relationships with women means allowing them the security to be without defense with you, or to drop their defenses. Usually, at some point, this will require you to drop your defenses as well and be really authentic - a kind of no-game game. Sometimes you can get someone to drop their defenses by recognizing their defense, naming it, and letting them know it is ok for them to drop their defenses with you. For example, If I am with a very strong alpha-woman, I will gaze into her eyes as I hold her and make her feel safe and say to her something like, "Its ok you know, you don't have to be the strong one with me." "I know that out there you need to be the strong one. But I also know that as much as you always TRY to be in con
trol, you don't really WANT to be in control and you are craving to be with someone strong enough to just let go with. I know that most people you've tried to lean on in the past have let you down. You are safe here. You can let go. You don't have to be the strong one." They are so moved by this that many will cry because the feeling is so good but so scary at the same time. If she actually allows herself to get attached to you, there is a huge emotional risk here.
Now when I say that I give women emotional intimacy that they crave, it doesn't mean that I am a blubbering emotional sap or a wuss bag. Here’s an example of letting someone drop their defenses: Rhett Butler and I had been on a double date with some twins (one of which I am still dating). They’re musicians and were going to be on a TV special. So they came over with Rhett to watch the TV special and were really upset by the way the TV show turned out. I could tell they were upset even though they kept insisting they were "Fine". So I just took one of them into my arms and just held her, comforted her and let her know it was ok, in a very strong and manly but caring way. How many guys, knowing that a woman is emotionally upset, would know what to do in a situation like that to fulfill her emotional needs? Sometimes, words don't work and a woman just needs to be hugged. Don't ever try to reason with emotions. Feelings first, facts second.
I have to insert a caveat or a warning here: This is actually a very dangerous form of seduction. It creates deep bonds between people and it is dangerous for the seducer & the seducee. It's more emotionally risky for both the man and the woman, but ultimately, more fulfilling too. This emotional bond is the reason why I can have actual relationships with these women and not just have ONS. But there is a downside that I should mention. A friend once compared what I do to sport fishing but failing to throw the fish back in the water soon enough. Rough analogy, but he had a point to make because he doesn't like what I do. In a way, he is right. Women can handle a ONS where the guy doesn't call the next day. They know what it is and although they may be pissed off, they can manage their feelings and their expectations about it and there is a relatively low impact because they have emotionally protected themselves against this possibility by keeping their defenses up throughout. It's just sex after all. When you
ask or encourage someone to lower their defenses, they are in a sense, making themselves very vulnerable with you and putting their trust in your hands. I take that trust seriously and find that vulnerability quite touching. When someone is this vulnerable with you and in a deeply intimate relationship, the potential for them to get hurt is enormous because they are without defense and haven't protected themselves. You need to manage that intimacy with some heart and compassion, especially since most women have never had this kind of intimacy with a man before; it is totally new ground for them to tread on and they are really far from their comfort zone. The potential for you to get very hurt is also high.
Because of this, I had even asked for some advice at one point on how to be a little more superficial because I tend to be a little too deep (without being sappy, mind you) and integrated a lot more humor and fun into my persona. Because of my job and my personality, I can handle quite a level of depth and emotional intimacy and closeness. Sometimes though, it’s like going too deep into rapport and a lot of people shy away from it, especially early on in a relationship. Early on, I would say that a little bit of distance is actually comforting, because too close, too fast usually weirds people out because you end up violating their personal boundaries. So here I am….. the package. A successful, classy, fun, humorous, adventurous, socially popular man who is capable of deep emotional bonds and is not a wuss bag. I am going to push these women’s boundaries, sexually, emotionally and with new life experiences, because I am totally non-judgemental, totally non-possessive, and totally accepting of them and their s
exuality and sensuality (learn the difference) as well as comfortable with my own. This is not me being conceited or bragging: This is actually a list of qualities that I semi-consciously set out to project all the time in a thousand little ways: body language, style, clothes, fashion accessories, posture, voice tone, vocabulary, facial expressions, interests, places I hang, things I do, etc., etc. This is the first impression that I want people to have of me so I have worked at projecting that – not in an artificial or affected way. But I have consciously sculpted my identity picking qualities that I want to be, based on what I know about the psychology of attraction. This is actually a great exercise. In the first column, write down a list of all the qualities you want to project, especially those you want to project in a first impression. In the second column, beside each quality, write down all of the things (no matter how small a detail) that you do or can do to project those qualities all the time. In t
he 3rd column, take a personal inventory of all of the little things you do that either project an opposite quality, or detract from that quality. Refer to this list often until all of these qualities become ingrained in you and you project these qualities effortlessly, almost unconsciously, and have eradicated all the things that detract from those qualities.
Having all of these qualities sounds great but it has sometimes been a problem for me. Because I connect with women on so many levels and offer them something that I think they have always deeply craved, I sometimes trigger the Mating and Nesting instinct – meaning that they want to marry me and have my children rather than wanting to get freaky and having wild monkey sex with me. Interestingly, we men probably classify women into categories too - wife, mistress, girlfriend, virgin forever, etc .... Psychologists call this the Madonna / Whore complex where it's difficult for us to imagine a woman can be both, so we label them as one or the other. So there may be an important downside to this, that women will classify us according to a certain template or label the same way we do to them. And with these qualities and the intimacy that I offer up, I tend to trigger the Husband or soul mate label and women try to slow things down sometimes because they are too emotionally invested in me. A woman knows that if th
ere is no possibility of a connection with a man, there is no real possibility of being hurt. They can have casual sex or a one night stand and there are no consequences. But if a woman feels that there is the potential for an emotional bond because you connect on many levels and she actually feels emotionally intimate, this is kind of scary for her because then the potential that she will get REALLY hurt is much higher. So, that is why they crave this kind of relationship with a man, but run away from it at the same time. It's not rare for women to want to slow things down with me BECAUSE they are too attracted. What I used to interpret as not enough attraction was actually too much attraction. It doesn't make sense to me either, but I have confirmed this over and over and over. But despite this downfall, most men could benefit from integrating a little more depth and warmth to their overall alphaness - IF they want to build relationships (even multiple relationships). In this community, we are so obsessed w
ith being alpha, that we sometimes forget how to be human and we neglect some basic social skills or "savoir faire".
Anyways, so I trigger this desire in a lot of women to marry me – even women who have never wanted a serious relationship before – but I won't give them the committed exclusive relationship they want, even though when we are together, I act (and allow myself to feel) like we are totally in love and in a serious committed relationship. One woman described the feeling of being with me as "a celebration of life" because everything feels very intense when you operate in this mode and it's very fulfilling. For the first little while, it’s not a problem because I am open about dating others. But as the emotional bond gets deeper, the women get more possessive and it does become a problem and they will threaten to leave – and some do. But they almost ALWAYS come back. The truth is that I care deeply about most of these women that I date, and they know that. I wouldn't date them if I didn't. In fact, I will sometimes tell them, "I care deeply about you and I want you to be happy. If this relationship is not making yo
u happy, then we shouldn't be together … for your own good. We should just be friends." And then I check up on them a while later to show that I was sincere when I said that I cared about them and wanted them to be happy, with or without me. I actually wasn't aware I was doing this until Rhett pointed it out to me. He was baffled by the fact that women would tell me they would NEVER be in this kind of relationship, but would invariably come back and he (and I) couldn't figure out how this happened. If I tell them we should just be friends because I don't like their jealousy or I don't think this relationship is good for them, I will actually carry through on my word and start treating them like great friends, going out with no expectations for sex, and inviting them to outings and parties, even setting them up with AFC friends that I tell them would be better for them than me because they are totally faithful and want a serious traditional girlfriend. This communicates that I still care about them as people a
nd so it keeps the relationship alive and keeps that door open for them to come back - and they often do.
If they still want to be with me exclusively, I have other scripts I can use depending on the frame and depending on the woman. It might be worthwhile to go into some of my scripts below.
I have gotten the whole dating thing down to a science: If I can get a woman to come on a date with me, I have gotten to the point in my game where I know I will close almost 100% of the time and she will be a repeat customer that I can add to the harem. However, the trick is to get her to sit down with me so that I can put all of these qualities on display and run her through my dating ritual. My weakness is still in the initial cold approach because there is little opportunity for me to display all of this in a loud club or if the woman is distracted.
Here is a little excerpt from a previous post that explains my procedure and some scripts for managing multiple relationships. Admittedly, it says nothing about how to get women to this point in a relationship.
I like to keep a harem of MLTRs because I am not big on ONS. They usually leave me feeling empty (sounds like chick talk). I enjoy the intimacy of getting to know and connect with one person deeply. But I can't be satisfied either sexually or intellectually, so I like to have multiple deep relationships.
Logistics I usually schedule dates on successive nights during the week, keeping most weekends free to meet new people. The first night we set for a date usually ends up being her night for a couple of months and she becomes part of a regular rotation. If she starts to get too possessive, I cut down on the frequency. For a period of about 7 months last year, I had a total of 9 regulars. The most I've been with is about 5 different women during a single weekend. Some stuck around as long as 1 ½ years and by that time, I will usually end it because they get really emotionally attached and start talking about kids and moving in together. I once had 5 toothbrushes on my bathroom sink - all from different women I was dating. It takes a few months (maybe 6 or more) before I let a woman leave her toothbrush at my house, and for them, this is VERY symbolic. I once had my brother in stitches during a party because he thought one of my girlfriends was a complete nut: She was going on about how tonight was the night she
was allowed to bring her toothbrush over. She was, in fact, a very successful VP of her company, and sane in every other area of her life.
Principles of multiple Relationships
Principle 1: Girls are territorial - they know, but want to pretend like
they don't know: Girls will leave stuff at my place (presumably they forgot but more likely they were marking out their turf) and when other girls would find the stuff (rings, necklace, panties... etc...) they flip out. Also, watch out for hair that is intentionally left in compromising places like on your bed. Women have confessed to me that they do this intentionally.
Principle 2: Important holidays are hard to manage: It's almost impossible to maintain a harem through important holidays (Xmas, New Years, Valentine's Day, etc.) They all wanted to spend Christmas and New Year's with me, but I couldn't be with all of them, so I will lose some there because they wanted to feel they could have someone to share those intimate times with.
Principle 3: There is a built in time-limit to how long someone will stay in a harem: Some have like a 1 year or 6 month expiry date, others had made a New Year's resolution to themselves that if we weren't exclusive by the New Year, they would move on and find someone they could "build a future with". Some come back after trying to be in unfulfilling other relationships.
Principle 4: There has to be the POTENTIAL of an exclusive LTR: They want to foster the intimacy and closeness that comes from dreaming about future plans together. If they don't have this possibility they don't stick around in a relationship because most women are notoriously not in the here and now – they are either stuck in the past (and giving you shit for stuff you did 2 years ago) or stuck in the future, dreaming about and building some kind of fantasy for themselves that includes future plans. Not all women want the potential of an exclusive LTR: but they are fuck buddies. We are talking here about multiple RELATIONSHIPS. They all want to think they can convince you to change your mind, change your playboy ways, tame you, and that they are THE ONE for you. Interestingly, this makes the women work very hard to please you to show you they could be THE ONE.
Principle 5: Have a pecking order and communicate it subtly: They all know that I see other women, and I've even had parties where I've invited several women that I was currently dating. At these parties, I will spend the beginning of the evening with my preferred girl – maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour of exclusive time – then I'll wade through and see the others and spend some time with each.
Although they are NOT cool with it, they all stick around! Why???? Because each of them is hoping that they'll be THE ONE I choose and because they would rather have a little of me than none of me. They can't really find what I'm offering with anyone else.
Setting the Frame:
*** NEVER be the first one to bring up the terms of the relationship - I have known A LOT of guys who have lost great sarging opportunities because they've insisted on having a long, drawn out, intellectual debate on monogamy and polyamory BEFORE closing. You are asking the woman to make a serious investment decision based on very little information and I guarantee you that you will lose out. These kinds of discussions reek of guilt and insecurity – as if you are doing something wrong and you want to get her permission and validation before you do it. Don't get sucked in to long and painful conversations about the topic. You have to learn to read between the lines when women talk to you and speak directly to their fears – feelings first, facts second. Be open but unapologetic. Be matter of fact but not cold. Understand that this will come up incessantly during your relationship and learn to deal with it without getting defensive, angry, or dismissive. Speak to her emotional fears that she is communicating: do
you really want to be with her? Do you really like her or care about her? Is she really different to you from all the others? Will you get bored of her? Simultaneously reassure and feed these fears in your words and gestures once in a while just to keep things spicy. WHEN they bring it up, here is how I handle it:
I tell them up front that I'm very busy and don't have time for a girlfriend. This is partly true and they understand this part. I also let them know that I travel a lot and see other women when I do. So far, mixed results. I tell them that I have a very active social life and go out a lot - sometimes with other women. They understand this part but are not always cool with it. I tell them that I'm very selective about who I'm with so it takes me a long time to know if I want to be with this person more seriously or not because the person has to qualify herself to me. While I'm figuring out if I want to be with her, I won't be exclusive. They understand this part because they understand being in a paradigm of choice because that is the paradigm they live in. It's just that this time, the tables are switched around and they are the ones being qualified. It's very scary for them to be with a man who has more choice than they do. There is a time limit to how long this stays valid though (about 1 – 6 months). I t
ell them that "I really am looking for THE ONE (this is partly true but it also serves as a dangled carrot in front of their noses), but I won't find her sitting around at home - you have to dig through a lot of dirt to find a diamond. " **This sets the possibility of LTR while simultaneously opening the door for multiple relationships. They get this part. This is key, and I learned this from one of my girlfriends: "What would you do in my situation?.....I am looking for THE ONE, but I've been sooooooo disappointed in the past with the quality of women out there, that I am starting to believe that I'll never find her, so since I won't lower my standards on what THE ONE has to be,... " I ask her what she would do in my situation... They always give the right answer: Have multiple relationships with different women that can each fulfill a part of me. They REALLY seem to get this.
I set this frame up slowly over time, introducing concepts and principles as they come up and as the relationship evolves, and only as much as needed. Ever heard the expression, "Methinks he doth protest too much"? Remember that. Sometimes less is better. Don't get defensive about it.
Cliff: I have had women read me the riot act over "monogamy", being in great part focused on the question of possible STD transmission. This hasn't been mentioned in your comments above yet has been a major issue in my experience - how do you handle this?
Doc: Of course, there are 2 aspects here: 1. They are expressing a sincere worry about getting something, but 2. They are also trying engage you in a debate over the merits of monogamy. If you try to engage them in this kind of rational debate, you are missing the real point of their question. They are using the rational fear of STDs to try to communicate to you a less rational emotional fear – being used, abandoned, unimportant, etc. So, talk to the rational fear by turning it around and asking THEM: "Are you healthy, should I be worried about your past partners, have you ever had an STD?" because it shows them that this is something I think about and care about and I'm even willing to disqualify her according to this standard. And then I'm very matter of fact about it: "I have personal rules about health and safe sex – it's very important to me" and then you could say something like Riker’s Rules or Style's adaptation (which is probably better in my opinion) because you then talk to both th
e rational and irrational fears that are communicated.
The fact is that 80% of women have had sex with more than 1 guy within a couple days of each other – doesn't sound like monogamy to me and it makes THEM more likely to have an STD than you (also the vagina is a great host to an STD whereas the penis really isn't). Most men will only ever sleep with less than 10 women in a lifetime. (Not us, of course, cause we go through that in a week!!) So most women are more sexually adventurous than men and because they live in a world of sexual abundance, they bore quickly of it. But what is really rare in their world a real man who can provide them with emotional intimacy.
Cliff: Can you elaborate on "However, the trick is to get her to sit down with me so that I can put all of these qualities on display and run her through my dating ritual." I would also like you to elaborate on how you begin and proceed to develop intimacy on your dates, and what you think you do that creates the depth of closeness that exceeds what they get from other guys they may have dated previously. And, while you are at it, describe the specifics of what you will do with new women on these dates - i.e. you meet them at a certain time, you go for drinks/coffee/dinner, etc. and what you do and/or look for to advance the relationship to the physical.
Doc: Well, I guess the frame for intimacy is something that gets developed very early on in the relationship – it starts with me opening up and telling her some things about me, dropping my defenses. It starts off quite innocently "Ooooh, I love Fruit Loops. They were my favourite cereal when I was a kid", and gradually builds up to more significant things about me, "I used to dream about this kind of thing when I was a kid". Self-disclosure isn't something most people do – certainly not alpha guys. During a sarge, we are sometimes so busy rifling through our routines or else we turn it into an interrogation. There has to be a balance between talking and listening. Talking means self-disclosure, and I'm not talking about bragging about stuff. Listening is also an important skill, because the more a woman feels heard, the more she drops her defenses. Recently, following one of my seminars, we were discussing this with some women and they confirmed this. If you are a good listener, you will hea
r the magic words. "Ooh, I'm talking too much aren't I?" When she says this, she is actually asking you permission to drop her inhibitions and let go. So allow her to. There is a big difference between being strong & dominant (which is very sexy) and being domineering and pushy (which is a sign of insecurity).
Remember there are 3 levels to every communication:
What is said,
What is meant,
The emotional need being expressed.
More important than all of this, is what gets communicated at the sub-text level. Mystery and No9 were at my place one day talking about this, and their conversation went something like this: "Yeah, the great thing about Doc is the way he comes off so sincere and genuine." … "Yeah, you’re right! Now if we could just figure out a way to fake that…". That was hilarious. The idea of faking authenticity is hilarious, but I guess there are ways to do it. Using your body language for example: lean forward slightly, talk softly and warmly with good intonation (no monotone shit here), listen to the 3 levels of communication and speak to her emotions, soft eye-contact (don't turn it into a staring contest and remember to blink, seriously), tilt your head slightly when you’re listening, laugh, smile, non-sexual touching (ex. hand on her cheek or soft caresses of her hair - this is a killer for intimacy), allow some silence in the conversation where you just sit there and gaze into her eyes and sigh with a small smile a
nd give her an indirect compliment (ex. "you have a great energy", "I feel really good with you right now" "This is a great moment," etc.). And this is key: as you say this stuff, allow yourself to actually FEEL it. Allow yourself to actually feel very positive feelings for her – as if you love her. Women pick up on this somehow, and it’s not a visual thing, it's just felt. I've held a lot of women in my arms, but when I allow myself to feel a lot of affection for them when I do this, they will often remark "Wow, that was pretty intense". Objectively nothing was different, but the energy was very different and they felt it. Allow yourself to feel in love too when you kiss her – it’s a much deeper, more sensual kiss and also builds a lot of intimacy.
Dose this stuff out judiciously so as not to come across creepy. Done too early or too much, and you just come across creepy, needy, or wussy. I wouldn't necessarily do these things so much on a first meeting cause that’s all guaranteed to be a turn off. But, once you are ALONE with her on a real first date, it really builds comfort and trust. It's like the no-game game. BUT, I think you can only do this soft stuff once you've demonstrated a lot of dominance, humor, and alphaness, and hard-to-getness. Otherwise, you just come across as a pussy. Peppered with alpha qualities, however, the contrast and depth of character is a killer combination.
Notice how a lot of the top PUAs actually come across very soft in the field. Of course, they spice up their approach with charisma and wit, but it's still rather soft. We’re sometimes obsessed with being tough alpha males, but the soft approach seems to work better than the hard, brash approach because it triggers less defenses, therefore, fewer defenses to undo later. I have become convinced that for seduction, THE SLOW WAY IS THE FAST WAY, and any defenses that you encounter (LMR, bitchiness, coldness, etc.) are usually caused by you.
Doc’s Dating Ritual
- In a nutshell, here is my Dating Ritual. It is like a well oiled machine these days and recently I realized that I have had the exact same 5 CD's in my player for the past year or so, so I have run countless women through this ritual. Anyways, I can tell you by CD 3, track 2, where I'll be in my dating ritual. (Just for info, its mostly sensual and exotic lounge music: Buddha Bar, Café del Mar, Verve Remixed, Tosca, and a couple of other compilations some friends made for me.)
- Make plans to get together at around 7 or 8 PM on a school night. The time makes it ambiguous as to whether we will be eating or not. I work late most days, so I just tell them to come by and pick me up from home as I will just be getting home from work. This makes it clear that I haven't eaten yet, but I haven't invited them out to dinner either, just to "get together for an hour or so". I live in a great neighbourhood, and I just assume that they will be ok with this. If they are not, or hesitate to come pick me up, it's usually a bad sign that I haven't done my homework well enough beforehand. In this case, I may just cancel and do some more work through phone and e-mail before we meet up again. If we met through social networking, this is rarely a problem. But if it’s a number I got from a cold-approach, I might propose a neutral meeting place like a coffee shop just around the corner from my house. There is this great coffee shop/lounge down the street from where I live where I have taken dozens of wom
en on dates. They serve killer martinis. The staff has seen me come and go with soooooo many women that it’s like a joke – the waitresses help rate my dates for me and either give me the thumbs up or thumbs down.
- When she comes over to pick me up, I tell her to come in as I'm just finishing getting ready. Just before she comes in, I start the cd player. My home is full of interesting stuff, and it’s a very warm and inviting place that’s very well decorated. The lighting is low, but not creepy low. It’s just that I have no direct lighting and EVERY single light switch has a dimmer. They are dying to have a tour. So I tell them to take off their shoes and coat, and that I'd be happy to give them a tour, but I am exhausted from work and just need to relax for a few minutes before we head out. Then I mix a couple of martinis in my martini shaker and pour them into martini glasses (girls LOVE martinis – especially Cosmopolitan, Lychee, chocolate. or apple… learn these!). Drinks in hand, I give them a tour and they get to ask questions about stuff I've collected traveling (exotic Indian or African stuff), photos that I've taken that are up on my walls (some underwater photos, photos of me with a dolphin, in uniform back i
n my Navy days, artsy photos, etc.), or some art I have. I have an interesting story for everything. The tour can take up to half an hour or more. By this time, I am starving and I propose to cook something. I've taken quite a few cooking classes, so I can cook-up a gourmet meal in about a half hour. So we cook a little together as we sip martinis. End of CD1.
- Sit down to eat, I get her to set the table and light some candles and we enjoy a great meal with a nice bottle of wine that she’s picked out from my wine collection. End of CD 2.
- After the meal, I say, "You know what, I'm really enjoying this, and I want to share something special with you" – then I take them over to the couch and light up the Shisha (the middle eastern water pipe that I brought back from a trip to Egypt – it has only tobacco in it btw) and we share the hose back and forth for a while. When I feel she is getting more relaxed, I take a puff, hold it in, and motion for her to come closer, and then I blow the smoke into her mouth very slowly and sensually. I don't touch her lips other than with my breath. Then I get her to do the same with me "mmmmmm, that’s nice". We will do this back and forth for as long as it takes. The more uptight she is, the more we just keep doing this, getting closer and closer without ever touching lips – just inhaling each other’s smoke. I can keep this up for 1 hour or so until SHE kisses ME. Then I pull back a bit, and in a soft sexy voice, with a sly smile, I say "mmmm, that was kind of unexpected, I don't know if I know you well enough,
you naughty girl". We will make out and smoke the shisha for as long as it takes: sometimes taking breaks once in a while to just stare off into space and smoke, and sometimes making out like crazy, and sometimes just gazing into her eyes. End of CD3.
- When I start to escalate things to get more physical, if I start to feel some resistance, I will actually stop and say (in a soft, sexy voice with a sly smile), "I've had a great time, maybe we should just call it a night, especially since it’s a school night tonight." I will even go so far as to start to dress her back up, button up her shirt, zip up her pants, and only kiss her on the cheek. I've also discovered a great spot that I'll call the ‘million dollar point’ on a woman. If she doesn't want me to go down her pants, I won't because I can stimulate her (sometimes to orgasm) with her clothes fully on without massaging her clit. I will stimulate a spot half-way between her belly-button and her pubic bone by pushing down quite hard and massaging in a circular fashion. Their eyes just kind of pop wide open because many of them have never experienced the intensity of being touched like this with their clothes on. They've also told me that it makes their pussies ache to be filled when I touch them like thi
s. I think that you are massaging the anterior fornix but from outside rather than inside the vagina. If I am getting A LOT of resistance, I will tell them that we should just be friends and actually mean it. This is really powerful and I use it almost systematically on VERY hot women. Anyways, these three techniques above almost always take away any remaining resistance. End of CD4.
- CD 5 is for cuddling after sex. That’s about it. I have almost a 100% success rate with this ritual. If this ever got out, I'd be dead!
Cliff: And can you expand your logistics to explain your telephone management - I know you usually only give out your cell phone number but with several women calling you how do you juggle your calls especially if they call late at night or early in the morning (when you might be with someone else)? And after being intimate with women for a certain number of weeks or months, how do you continually manage to avoid seeing them on weekends (it seems to me that if you can do this all year long, XMas and New Years has to be easy to get out of)?
Doc: If I am on a date with a woman, I usually give her my undivided attention and it is very rare that I'll pick up the phone if someone else calls. I rarely sit across from a woman on a date. I much prefer to sit side by side or perpendicular because you can be much closer without her feeling like you are invading her personal space and she gets quite comfortable being physically close to you. If the date is going so-so and I want to increase my value, then I will ignore her a bit and answer a phone call. But not if things are going well. As for weekend dates, I don't have any hard and fast rules about this. In fact, I don't have any hard and fast rules about anything. If a woman insists on a Saturday night, why not? After all, at least I'm sure I'll be getting laid that night. Seriously though, just be flexible, listen to their emotional needs and make sure that every time you see each other, your date is what one girlfriend once called "a celebration of life".
Cliff: Tell us more about your telephone game: you get a girl's number somewhere, then what do you do? When or how long after you got it do you call, what do you typically say on the first call, etc.? I don't know if previously you had periods where making arrangements may or may not have resulted in actual dates, but if you have adopted some phone strategies which have been consistently successful, please expand on them. I know you mentioned to me that, after you have been intimate the first time, you will usually not make plans with a woman the next time you call and this a) keeps her off balance and b) prevents you from falling into the boyfriend frame. This also keeps you from getting tied in to nights you don't want to be tied in to (eg. having a woman expect to see you on the continuously on the weekend once you may have given her a Saturday night). I know that you also mentioned to me that you often double or triple book. So how about a few words on what you do on the phone which might
be noteworthy?
Doc: When I get a girl’s phone number, I will often call her on the Monday after we met. I always mean to call earlier (like the next day) but I get too busy. The first call is light, fun, something like this: "Hi it's Doc, how are you? I'm great, I just got home from work and now I'm about to have this delicious piece of cheese cake with some fresh strawberries on it…". Share some fun stories of shit going on in my life and hers. We laugh a lot, I make fun of her a lot, and I always bring up something sexual like "I was talking to some friends yesterday about whether or not a MAN can fake an orgasm". It’s sexual but funny so it is non-threatening but clearly shows that I am a sexual being who is very comfortable with sexuality. As the high of the call starts to fade out, I tell her that I have to go but it was nice talking to her. Then I leave a slight pause as if I'm about to hang up. Women are so incessantly being hit on that it's kind of weird for a guy to call her and not ask her out. So
I say good bye without asking her out. She will often say bye, and then just before I hang up, she will say, "we should get together sometime." I answer "well, let me see, I'm pretty crazy busy this week working at McDonalds - (or some such crap), so I can't this night and that night, but maybe Thursday night we could go out and play. I know that a girl like you usually just ends up staying home and reading your Harlequin romance in your crochet slippers that your aunt Mimi knit for you, but my Boy Scout troupe says I have to do some charitable act this week, so you will be my charity case this week and my project will be to de-nerdify you."
If I feel that she is a little flaky, I will double or even triple book on that same night and invite other women that I've connected with to the same place (my local lounge, usually) at the same time. It's really funny when a woman who is used to being chased after shows up for a "date" and you kind of ignore her because you’re entertaining 2 or 3 other women. She will respond by trying to make you jealous and hitting on other guys in the bar, but it's really just a show for you. I will always end the date first and tell her to "come walk me home." I might invite her in to see my new (fill in the blank ... painting, photo, blue socks, whatever) but I won't try to close her that night because I just want her to be comfortable in my home so I can invite her another night and run her through the "ritual". Or we might just kiss good night outside my place and she will be surprised that I don't invite her in. If we kiss, but I feel that she is still holding back, I might say something like, "I'm not sure about yo
u yet…." with a sly smile, and just leave it there as I pull away and go home. Again, it's weird for her to be with a guy who doesn't always try to get something more out of her and it telegraphs that I am totally NON-NEEDY. This is NOT the AFC thing of not having the balls to escalate things to the next level. It’s the alpha-guy playing hard to get who is coming from a frame of total abundance of women in his life and who really doesn't give this one date or one woman too much stock and couldn't care less if he gets laid tonight cause he got laid last night and is going on a hot date tomorrow night too.
After I've been intimate with a woman, I will always contact her the next day. It’s always turned out VERY bad when I haven't. Just a quick call or e-mail to say something like "Tired but smiling today – had a great night last night". After a few days, I will call her but this time, I won't ask her out for a date. Just to keep it friendly and keep the mystery up. I can almost hear what she says to her girlfriends after as she is trying to figure this out "I don't know if he wants to see me or not… he just called but didn't offer to hook up. Do you think I did something wrong? Do you think he still likes me?" It's kind of interesting low level drama in their lives I guess cause it really amps up the attraction. But you can’t do this all the time cause then the physicality of your relationship dies out. Maybe half the time I'll call just to touch base, reignite the attraction, and NOT make plans to see her. At first, we'll talk once a week but see each other once every two weeks. That is about the level where t
here is a tacit agreement that this is just casual and that we expect each other to continue seeing other people. Closer than that, and you will become her boyfriend and she will expect exclusivity. Once they get into the once a week getting together, then it becomes a relationship and you need to get into some relationship management strategies that I've outlined above.
Cliff: Doc, I want to thank you for the tremendous effort you put in to go over all of the above. I think you've shared some really terrific information which will help a lot of guys in many ways.
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Los Angeles Bootcamp - $1500 - October 1-3, 2004
Los Angeles Bootcamp - $1500 - October 8-10, 2004
Go to www.realsocialdynamics.com/ to signup for these events on their schedule.
Mystery Method Workshops:
What method are YOU using?
If you are opening groups (or sets: 2-sets, 3-sets, mixed sets, etc) of people with the 3 second rule by stacking indirect openers (including false opinion openers), false time constraining (discovered by Style), demonstrating a higher value to your romantic interest’s peer group with high octane DHVs while she obliquely observes (locking her into her own set with a prop), and simultaneously performing false disqualifiers (which include negs) on her with the intension of disarming her peergroup and then isolating her to rebuild her self-esteem once you have enough IOIs (indicators of interest) so you may share in a comfort and trust building effort and then build in a jealousy subplot to solidify her attraction for you, you are using The Mystery Method.
If instead you are only approaching women who are alone, you are greatly limiting your options and quite likely alienating your target's friends. Do you want a lonely woman (why is she lonely?) or a woman who already has a healthy social lfe? Truth is, healthy women have healthy relationships ... sometimes good friendships with guys. Like it or not, you will have to meet these women with men in her group.
Women of beauty are rarely found alone. Don't miss the opportunity to meet and attract them WITH social proof from her very own peergroup. Group Approach Theory (GAT - created by me) improves your options and increases the chances for attraction DRAMATICALLY over Single Approach Theory (SAT).
The guys who are GREAT in this game KNOW that they can improve their game ten-fold through seminars and personal coaching in-field workshops. Think about this: Why did so many of the greats who use my GAT (Style, Tyler D., MTL_PUA, and others) take my seminars and workshops? What started them off to greatness in this game? Can you see the co-relation may in fact be a causation?
If you have NEVER taken a seminar or workshop before, it's time to finally reconsider. They are life-transforming. I have conducted dozens of them. I am currently conducting a bootcamp and will accept only 5 people. Workshops and seminars were for many of the greats THE difference between great success and failure. If you are ready, give me a call and sign up. If you have any questions, give me a shout at 323-219-8696 (Mystery) because email sucks, or visit www.Mysterymethod.com and email me your #. We need to talk. Man to man.
Swinggcat has published a new ebook which you can check out at his website at www.realworldseduction.com. Those of you who remember his outstanding posts here will be anxious to get this as soon as possible. Highly recommended.
Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction Seminars (www.speedseduction.net/)
Advanced Speed Seduction® Seminars
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
London, England September 3, 4, 5
Speed Life Seminars
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
Cancun, Mexico November 7 thru 13
Your Mind in Business
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
Dallas, TX June 21-25
Major Mark (www.trucor.com) has announced his schedule for 2004:
*Introduction To Hypnosis -- The New Curriculum -- Las Vegas September 20-24
This year we were asked by a national hypnosis group to develop a New Curriculum for the training of hypnotists -- one which would reflect the absolute best of what has always worked while incorporating our own cutting-edge discoveries. We wanted a curriculum that was so comprehensive in explication and exercise that the graduates could walk into an internship anywhere in the world, secure that they were the best-trained hypnotists in the place. The result is being rolled out over five days in Las Vegas. This is your chance to immerse yourself in the most comprehensive approach to powerful, positive, permanent change ever presented!
Send mail to Cassi@trucor.com with questions or comments about these seminars.
Call to register: 419 882-8543 or go to www.trucor.com
Double Your Dating LIVE! NEW Seminar! We will be reviewing all of the new DYD products here soon, including the monthly interview series in which David DeAngelo interviews "Dating Gurus" such as (), David X, and many others.
2004 Tentative Seminar Schedule:
New York September.
Las Vegas beginning of December.
You can order all your DYD products and register for seminars through this link: www.doubleyourdating.com/cl
Riker's Seduction Log - Live Seminar
If you always wanted to hear more field reports, with full details, and even some recordings, then this seminar is for you. Dave Riker (Ross's co-trainer for those of you who don't know him) spends about 3 hours each evening going through his personal Logs and notes and provides full reports on sarges, many from start to close (finish). And that's a full "close" by the way, not just an email address or phone number!
The seminar is held in conjunction with Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction Seminars. Ross's seminar is during the day (and Riker presents at that too) and then Riker does his seminar in the evening. And even if you do not attend Ross's seminar you can still attend Riker's.
For full details see the web page at: http://www.daveriker.com/logseminar/track/cl.htm (site is either inactive or no longer relevant)
Be sure to check out his "Reviews" page on his site. Many guys that have been in the game for a while, and attended a LOT of seminars, were just blown away by Riker's Log seminar.
Introducing 1 on 1 Badboy workshops:
Badboy is a Croatian PUA from Zagreb who has spent almost 4 years in the game. He is also a respected poster in Mystery's lounge.
To see some of his stuff, search for posts by "croBadboy" on mASF or read one of the recent issues of Cliff's list.
Workshops are 1 on 1 for 3 days.
Each day consists of a 4-hour seminar and 5 hours of active in-field work. Each night you will make 20-30 approaches with your teacher to get field experience. 1 on 1 training makes it possible to answer any questions you might have and cover the most important aspects of the game in detail. Teachings are tailored to your level in the game.
The basic structure of the workshop is:
Day 1:
Social intelligence/emotional intelligence
How to dress, peacocking vs. dressing style
Alpha-male bodylanguage secrets
Attitude (inner-game) and getting a good seductive voice
Difference between emotional and party type girls
Social dynamics in clubs (2sets/3sets/lonewolves), know your city
Openers (sets with males vs. only-girl sets)
Day 2:
Difference between PUing alone and with a wing
Different tools for getting attraction
Power of contrast (bad boy & nice guy in one)
Stealing their frames
Passing shit tests
Push-pull
Isolation tactics (2steps)
Day 3:
AMOG tactics (the AMOG handshake, group set AMOG destroyers)
Boyfriend destroyers
Passing LMR
Secrets of good sex
How to manage a good relationship
More body language secrets
How to turn Coffee dates into fuck-fest in just 1 hour
How to turn a 0$ date into a time she will never forget
Difference between PUing in different places (small towns, big cities, colleges and the difference between certain clubs and the girls who go there)
Badboy says he can write a pages of what he does with guys because it's not just PU. He opens their EYES to LIFE, to understand how to live successfully.
For more info, email Badboy at badboy@playboylifestyle.net. See Badboy's new website: www.playboylifestyle.net
NEW BADBOY WORKSHOPS IN RIO DE JANEIRO:
The dates are:
August 5-6-7
August 12-13-14
August 19-20-21
There are seats available now.
Price : $850
You can make a deposit ($100) for a workshop on Paypal and send money to: nightlife@playboylifestyle.net
Thundercat's Seduction Lair
Get the latest News, Rumors, Tips, Tricks, & Analysis on the Pick-Up and Seduction community! The site is updated daily with lots of free and exclusive content.
Also a good way to keep up with things without having to navigate mASF. Drop By TSL today! www.thundercatseductionlair.com
The Art of Approaching: Learn to meet ANY woman, ANY time, ANY where. The most difficult hurdle for most men to overcome is that of the initial Approach. This comprehensive eBook gives you over 35 unique Openers, as well as a step-by-step roadmap to help overcome your fear of approaching forever!
www.thundercatseductionlair.com/ebook.htm
Impact Interaction (www.impactinteraction.com) @ London
Angel Caido, RyobI and Lockstock have been running Workshops and Seminars in London since the beginning of the year. The workshops are small in size (trainer : student ratio of 2:1 as max), so students get personal attention on sticking points.
The workshops include:
- Basejump: For approach newbies who need to get internal game and basic attraction skills in gear
- Field Interaction: To perfect your bar/ club and street performance
- Solid Game: Everything good except lots of flakes? Few end results? End to end game sticking points covered…
For more information go to www.impactinteraction.com or contact them @ contact@impactinteraction.com.
Have you ever asked yourself...
* What does it take to make a woman feel totally comfortable making out with me - even if she barely knows me?
* How do I get women to WANT to sleep with me? After all, what good are all those "bedroom techniques" I learned if I don't even know how to get her back to my bedroom in the first place?
* Why do women melt around some guys, but they are totally unresponsive to me? What do they have that I don't?
Wouldn't it be nice if you knew a guaranteed way to "get physical" with any woman you go out with? Have you ever been on a date with a woman, and wondered *how* you can start "making out" with her? (by making out, I mean kissing, hugging, holding hands, etc.)
Jason King has just released a not new report that will teach you everything you need to know about getting *close* to a woman on a date.
Jason is an absolute master at making out with a woman on the first date. Whenever he goes out with a woman, he seems to put them under some kind of "love spell", and they want to make out with him more and more as the date progresses. By the end of the date, the women usually invent all kinds of excuses to invite him back to their place.
There is NO other person out there who is teaching these skills. If you've ever wanted to learn how to make out with a woman on the FIRST date... not weeks or months later... you MUST check out his site.
"Seduction Tips-Seduce the woman for you today"
www.pmmarketing.org/seductiontips.htm
Maximillian Hell:
I have a PU journal up on livejournal. Right now it's mostly just a record of my sarges--but comments are welcome.
www.livejournal.com/users/maximillianhell
Visit these sites (and give me your comments on their products):
http://www.sexualrapportmodeling.com/jump.php?a=2350 (site is either inactive or no longer relevant)
Gunwitch has also entered the commercial game. Go to: www.dynamicsexlife.com/
Daniel:
If you are looking for a wing and you are a guy from Romania, you can check on our forums at www.seductierapida.ro/forum and you might find one.
Carlos Xuma:
Time is running short for all of us, no matter how young or old you are. Don't waste precious years learning by trial and error (and most likely not at all). Get the information on how to improve your dating life TODAY. Make the changes you need to make to get the love, sex, and relationships that you want and DESERVE to have. Download THE DATING BLACK BOOK right now at: www.datingdynamics.com/ebookstore.htm
A few sites to check out:
Mike PilinskI is the author of "Without Embarrassment: The Social Coward's Totally Fearless Seduction System"... a unique method of meeting girls that will have you making up for wasted time spent living in shy-guy hell from the very first moment you test it out. Check it Out Here => www.highstatusmale.com/.
David Wygant (www.whatsyourexcuse.com & www.mydatingagent.com).
Check out Payton Kane www.seduceandconquer.com. VERY interesting. There will be a review of his product here shortly.
Erick Kand has a new website that showcases Hypnosis Stage Shows for fun and entertainment: www.HypnosisEvents.com
The Foundations of Seduction
Hi, you know something? When it comes to seductionhey, when it comes to ANYTHING--how you feel has a huge impact on the results you get. But the way you feel doesn’t have to be determined by your surroundings, your expectations, others’ behavior, or the tides and stars. You can guide your own feelings. By doing so, you can adjust and enhance your results. You can replace frustration with the satisfaction of tangy, blood-red, salty-sweet resolve. When you can change the way you feel, you can change what you experience… and what you encounter… and then the world stands revealed as something you yourself partially create. Sometimes, to begin claiming the victories you deserve, all you need is a simple little tool: a way of channeling your own emotions. A way of tapping your inner fire. A way of taking that inner fire, and letting it melt your external obstacles. A way of changing all that you feel, about all that you experience. Of course, you may not need or want such a tool. For some, the ability to guide and
drive one’s own emotional experience is pretty basic stuff. Some people shrug off rejection, feel wonderful almost all the time, and easily attain their goals. If that’s true for you, and you don’t think you can add to your abilitywell, you may be right. In that case, my new CD may not be for you. On the other hand, should you want a tool meant to ease the transition to seductive success… to productive success… to any kind of success, maybe this new CD can be of use to you. It’s called "Foundations of Seduction". You can get it for $29.97 plus $5 Priority Mail s/h, by going here: www.sexualkey.com/ Just enter "$34.97" into the FlexPay box and then email me at info@sexualkey.com with your shipping address and a note that you’ve ordered "Foundations of Seduction". If you’re outside the U.S., please add an additional $5 for shipping. Have fun! JD www.sexualkey.com/
LOUIS AND COPELAND'S "FREEDOM WITH WOMEN" SEMINAR DATES
To find out more about "Freedom with Women", contact
davidc@howtosucceedwithwomen.com
HOW TO SUCCEED WITH WOMEN Ron Louis and David Copeland have their Mastery Program Tape series available. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes. howtosucceedwithwomen.com/
Advanced Macking:
In case you want a step by step guide on how to get into one-night stands, check out Anthony Berger's Advanced Macking manual. What makes it unique is that it is engineered towards making it happen the same night you meet them. To learn how to persuade women back to your pad, check out his site: www.advancedmacking.com/Discount.htm
Michael:
If you want to improve both your pick up game and your understanding of women on a deeper level,you've got to come out to my Dating Wizard Live Seminar in Toronto, August 14th and 15th. It will be two FULL days of non-stop IMMERSION - including a live pick-up component - giving you a whopping,eye-opening insight into how to be successful with women on a whole new level.
There are also going to be awesome guest speakers at the seminar:
Smooth, the President of the Toronto Lair, will lend his rich experience and expertise in several areas, including real seductions of hotties online. There will also be another awesome dude at the seminar - he goes by the name of Scorpeus, his story and transformation into a PUA is inspiring in itself, and he will share his insights as well.
To learn more about this special seminar, go to:
And follow the "Seminars" link.
And if you haven't downloaded my eBook, "The Dating Wizard: Secrets to Success with Women", then that's the place to get started.
Inside, I explain step-by-step how to approach women, how to get instant dates, how to get physical, and how to sustain her interest if you desire a relationship. Best of all, you won't have to be a jerk to OUTDO the jerks!
Download it now at:
www.thedatingwizard.com/ And follow the link to "About The Dating Wizard"
FREE HYPNOSIS MINI-TUTORIAL
The UltimateSeduction Yahoo group, at groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/ is sponsoring a free one-month mini-tutorial on Conversational Hypnosis. This tutorial, presented by the hypnotist Archangel, is sectioned off into five parts:
Trance Words
Rapport
Persuasion Anchoring
Pacing, &
Leading
Although less than halfway through, members are reporting some highly entertaining, and some startling, success stories. The UltimateSeduction group has the advantage of having more than a few women on-list, enabling members to get some very pointed straight talk on their techniques. There is nothing to memorize - only a handful of very simple, and very effective, techniques. The group is gaining about 200 new members a week and is lightly moderated.
Anyone may join the tutorial at: groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/
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