BAM my whole world was knocked up, around, and down

Ross: This is a reprint from a post I just made on the SS list about handling flakes: More On (Moron) Flakes: Reasons they flake: 1. They were powerfully moved and that triggers some fear in them. 2. They weren't sufficiently moved or motivated so they figure it isn't worth their time or I didn't make it scarce/urgent enough so it became a "maybe one day" instead of "yeah, I want to/got to meet/hangout/hook up with this guy!" They didn't feel sufficient fascination OR that "connection" or those "attraction butterflies". 3. They live a life of turmoil and chaos: family problems, drugs, depression, emotional turmoil/mood swings, crime, problem on the job, some serious ruin. These are girls you either fuck that night you meet them or you never fuck them at all. Once you DO fuck them, you probably NEVER hear from them again (if you are lucky!) 4. They are arrogant, narcissistic, shit-headed fuck-brains who think just the CHANCE of being with them is sufficient f
or little people like you. Emotionally 16 years old, but run around in 23, 29, even 40 year old bodies and every range between. 5. They met someone they'd rather fuck and are busy fucking them. Hotties get LOTS thrown their way you know. 6. Something bad happened beyond their control: accident, death, etc. 7. Something YOU did scared the crap out of them and you didn't pick up on it. This will happen if you leave a bizarre or heavy message on the phone machine. Don't leave messages that use their trance words before that first real sit-down meeting. It will scare the pants off them. TRUST ME. 8. They weren't interested, they TOLD you so or TRIED to tell you, but you weren't listening. 9. Lack of sufficient rapport 10. Burned so badly by men they are turned off to ALL men. 11. So young they live totally in the moment. Under 23 you get this alot. They flake on EVERYONE, even their own female friends. Their female friends do it back to them. Incapable of planning and seldom do, beyond the next 2-3 hours. (Also,
girls with serious Attention Deficit Disorder will have this issue.) Bad planning skills, poor memories, in one ear, out the other. Trust me, I've been there; these drive you most crazy because they REALLY mean it when they agree to meet you! 12. Girlfriends talked them out of it. (What? You're going out with a guy who PICKED YOU UP ON THE STREET? (or substitute: "A Jewish guy...a black guy..a guy THAT old? ...a guy NOT in the frat! etc., etc., etc.")

Solutions: I've found I've been able to mitigate ALOT, but not all of the flaking by handling the overwhelm/safety issues, building sufficient rapport, creating value/interest (especially after getting a number after a very brief meeting; I find it will take about a 10-15 minute phone conversation that doesn't get TOO heavy to get a meeting with them, face to face, that they keep), making sure I give them SOME taste of a great body feeling so they can get that "attraction" recognition signal for themselves. If I have enough time I also will inoculate against the "friends" issue by pointing out I only spend time with people who can demonstrate they have their own minds/can think for themselves.

Categories 3,4,8,10 and 11 are pretty much impossible to prevent, other than attempting to stay alert, aware and recognize them and just not count on anything that doesn't happen right then, right there, or simply shit-canning them and running like hell. I can't yet see a way (away! ha ha ha) other than getting away to deal with these poor chicas.

Since some of you deal with young women alot and hit entire veins of flakes, I'd like to hear your responses to this. Anyone else, please feel free to chime in....

Jake ( www.SeduceAnyGirl.com ): Does anyone know when some of the masters will be coming to Australia to teach?

GameMaster: Hey Clifford, it occurred to me after a couple of recent postings that I probably should lend some clarification to how I use some of these rather lengthy patterns. I've experimented with just about every combination of ammo in the arsenal and have learned, as most of the guys have, when it comes right down to seduction the rule is "the simpler the better". Duh! Where I have failed with this stuff was when I was so dazzled by my own bullshit I would ramble on and on throwing the kitchen sink at these women in an attempt to overwhelm them into submission. And you know what, they were all totally fucking overwhelmed and I never saw them again! Anyway, my style is more of a hit and run, playful buildup to the main event. I keep copious notes on what was used, their values, trance words, etc. The last thing you want to hear from some chick you're trying to bang is "Yeah, I've heard this one before." I sort of subscribe to the Timothy Leary foundation of "set and setting" now and wait for the non-verba
l clues to go in for the kill. All these other patterns are designed to translate my own personal experience into something exciting and intriguing to my target , and they all come into play eventually...but never in sequence anymore. Although I do sometimes get repeat requests for that Don Juan thing, and I'm finding fewer and fewer people have seen or remember the movie. And you don't have to be Johnny Depp to pull that off, hell that guy's from fucking Kentucky!

NightLight9: (Commenting on "Jeff: commenting on NightLight9 kiss opener: BULLSHIT!"):

NightLight9 responds: Damn that makes me feel good :-) Where you at, dog? If it's cool, maybe I'll come visit you and show you how it's done. If you are ever in the Seattle area, let me know. Anyway, I'm sure lots of people on the list will attest that they have had similar experiences at least once (some many times), so get off your ass and test this shit out. The worst thing that can happen is a head turn. Anyway, I've been thinking some more about resistance to the first kiss. Specifically, what to say when a woman pulls back and asks "Why do you want to kiss me?" Obviously she wants to kiss you if she's asked this, she wants to know it's both alright and that it won't end up a bad experience. I've tried a bunch of things that don't work that well (for me at least) like: say nothing, just try again (works once in a while) "I don't want to, I have to." "You're so beautiful.", and "I've wanted to since I first saw you" (works sometimes). The one that I came up with recently, that I think has real merit (and
worked the one time I've used it) is "Chemistry, you know chemistry is like..." Maybe add "You just can't fight it." Another line like this that I"m working on for ambiguity after you've made the first transition, or if you sense she is very sexual. "That reminds me of a friend of mine from chemistry class. She was so cool. You know what they say about chemistry. You can't fight it." then change the subject or kiss her if she's ready. I love this, because it's a bit of stream of consciousness that creates confusion.

NightLight9 on suntanning: I love the irony of guys who are advocating swapping multiple types of bodily fluid with chicks and then worrying so much about skin cancer and sun damage. Rhetorical question: do you use a dental damn when you eat a girl out, or just take a quick pap smear? Then again, I do ride a motorcycle...

Cliff's Comment: Good point, but I think we all make trade-offs in life and accept some risks and decline others. This (taking the sun) is an easy one to say no to, whereas having women, in my opinion, is distinctly more important comparatively speaking.

Maxin: (Commenting on: MB: Come on, man. You can't be serious here. 100% of all guys I know including me, know whether or not they would sleep with a woman as soon as they see her. It's then up to her to turn us off by her attitude, not the other way around. If I see Halle Berry and she turns out to have an IQ of 20 but is willing to fuck, I am not turning her down. After all, it's her body I want not her brain when I am fucking her. It seems to me you have bought in too much into this NLP business at the expense of all other lines of thinking."):

I have on many occasions slept with a woman who I was not initially interested in because she had a great attitude. I have also had conversations with women who were very attractive on the outside but who were so fucked up in their way of thinking that I decided there was no way in hell I'd ever sleep with them... even once. If you and "everyone you know" are focusing exclusively on the exterior packaging, then you are in for some seriously bad relationships with women.

Mark B.: (Commenting on "Mark B. Commenting on me: She is a friend of 12 years. We have never been romantic but we worked together for about 7 years while I was in high school and then in University and kept in touch after. She is not yet married but will chain herself to her current fiancé next summer. By brownie points do you mean "the brown point" - maybe she is into anal? Do you think this was her implicit way of telling me something? Perhaps."):

No, I didn't mean that she would tell you she's into anal or wants to fart you a greeting. Her fiancé is having her heart after all, I just meant to make you notice the very special and playful ANCHOR she gave you. (I do not know what brownie points really are but I think they equal value - at least honor). The hard part is to play your cards RIGHT. A playful response to your sexual request can be covering emotional disturbance or even anger about it. Your brownie point won't buy brownies. But you've waited 12 years, now you can wait until the wicked 7th year just as easily... I mean fire your anchor when her husband ate half her heart out. Brownie point - anchors temporarily unrequited sexual caring.

(Commenting on: "(Commenting on: "She is 25, 5'11", blonde, who used to model in her teenage years."): You mentioned cell phone and email address... ;-D)"):

MB: I'll keep this in mind and use it as a playful way of reminding her of my suggestion. When I see her I will ask her to physically give me that brownie point. I do have her numbers but what I did was not with serious intent. I only wanted to see how she responds - the point being that she did not get angry....

(Commenting on: "This is the same as one of the lessons I learned from a good book on sales: "Closing Techniques (That Really Work!)" The author, Stephen Schiffman, says that when you get resistance or even rejection from a prospect, too many salesmen interpret it as a lost cause. You should instead interpret it as an opportunity to learn what problems or questions your prospect has with the product you are selling. What you interpret as rejection may only be the prospect thinking out loud, mulling the issues as it were. I am keen to try out MarkB's technique, but I recently learned that my school's sexual harassment edicts forbade "propositions." I'll have to wait until break, unless I can think of some clever way around it. Suggestions are welcome."):

MB: I would not do this where it has the potential to hurt you such as at work or in school. To get around it, I would suggest doing it outside of the work or school environment so that you avoid getting yourself potentially in hot water. For me it's best to do this in places where I am not likely to see the woman again or somewhere where she cannot find me again but I can find her, such as a store where she works, etc. The point is to minimize the chance of her finding you in case she is a psycho and takes great offence to your suggestion. There seem to be a lot of guys on this list who think that if a woman says no then she is missing out on the best set of experiences that the guy could give her. To me this is a form of self delusion where this line of thinking suggests that you and her exist in a vacuum with no other variables present. What if you could indeed give her the time of her life, the most powerful orgasm or the best anal she's ever had. But also consider the other factors associated with you be
ing in her life. She many not want to subject herself to being potentially hurt, she may not want to stop seeing her friends to see you, maybe she is not ready for a relationship, maybe she has feelings of guilt, she may not be attracted to you, she may already have a boyfriend. Your value system may not be equal to hers, etc. When she rejects your offer, you see her as making a mistake. Well, maybe in your mind but not in hers and as long as in her mind the costs of being with you outweigh the benefits no matter how great you think you are you unfortunately are not the best for her. But you can try to make her think otherwise by discussing her reluctance. Thinking you are the best prevents you from seeking to improve yourself and can potentially stifle your progress by thinking "I am the best, I do not need to improve, they are making a mistake.. ....blah.. ..blah...... ..blah"

Jeff: (Commenting on: "Sis recommends just casually introducing yourself, making her laugh and being cocky, and acting disinterested and even aloof, creating a little doubt in her mind that you might not really be interested in her. Mystery's method seems somewhat similar, using negs and creating social proof and being entertaining using a rehearsed routine. Your strategy seems so simple I almost can't believe you're getting away with saying the shit you're saying."): MB: It's extremely simple. I say "Hello. My name is Mark. I could not help but notice you. I think you are stunning." I get her response and then I say "I wanted to let you know that you are hot, I find you attractive and it would be great if we had a chance to get to know each other for the possibility of having great times together and perhaps many nights filled with passion." That's it. Then she will say "I have a boyfriend," " I am married," "It takes time for me before I sleep with someone," "I need to be romanced or know someone better,"
blah blah blah...... The basis for this approach is that it fishes out the potential from the non potential right away. This approach virtually guarantees that you will encounter resistance but that is the whole point for any resistance she gives you is a way of her telling you what issues you need to address before she sleeps with you or agrees to go out. Most men think that resistance or objections equals rejection and that is why they avoid being up front in favour of being more subtle, i.e. cocky, funny patterns, etc. To me when a woman says "I need to get to know a guy better," she is telling me what it will take to get her and more importantly she is not saying "fuck off, asshole" which is rejection. Objections and raising of concerns are not rejection. Most people, though, see any signs of resistance as rejection which it is not. This, I believe, is where most people draw the wrong conclusions and favour being anything but up front in the hope of warming her up to you thus avoiding any resistance later
. In my way, you still have to warm her up but you do it after you make your intent known and this is where I can be cocky, funny, use patterns, etc. The advantage to my method is that at least you know what you need to do and you also know whether she is open to your initial suggestion - this is the key for you do not want to waste your time if she is not at all interested or never would be no matter what you do."):

I tried something like this recently. I met this HB for coffee and we had a very nice time after grapho deck and some patterns but obviously it didn't last because I didn't see her again after that. Then after several months I decided to give her call and I told her I thought we connected pretty good and I thought she was absolutely beautiful and that I wanted to be with her. She said, "I don't know about that because I'm just starting to see someone who I really like." Then she told me to call her and I called a few days later and she said she couldn't talk because she was with her borefriend so I decided to back off for now and haven't called again. Comments?

Flying Dutchman: I promised to describe two different beach approaches I have recorded from a Belgian TV programme about real boys and girls flirting in Salou (Spain). The first approach is pure AFC , the second is a pure PUA . They are both so funny and pathetic! But keep in mind that this is all reality, nothing is acted here!

First scene. Two AFC guys are laying on the beach and they have spotted two girls a bit further away. For your information: the guys wear big, outdated swimming shorts and aren’t tanned (I guess they just arrived). One guy is fat (let’s call him guy A), the other is very thin (guy B). I hope you remember my previous comments on appearance (fashionable, tanned and athletic). The girls they want to score are a HB 8 and a HB 8,5.

Laying on their towels, guys A and B try to impress the girls by looking very cool and casual. It doesn’t appear to work, as the girls show no attention at all. So they decide to change tactics and to approach them right away. The guys walk over.

Guy A: “Hello, where are you from?” HB 8,5: “We are from Belgium. We live in Leuven (city in Belgium).” Guy A: “Oh, we are from Belgium too. We live in Hasselt (city in Belgium).” HB 's remain silent. Guy A: “I’m Guy A, his name is Guy B.” HB 's remain silent. Guy A: “Just a small question. How old are you?” HB 8,5: “I’m 17.” HB 8: “I’m 18.” Guy A: “I’m 26.” HB 's remain silent. Guy A: “Where are you going to, tonight?” HB 8,5: “We don’t know yet.” Guy A: “Yeah, there are some good clubs here. I know, because I visit this place for the third time now. So I know now where the best clubs are located.” HB 8 (a bit bored): “Cool.” Guy B: “Maybe you girls like to meet us at (name of club)?” Guy A: “Yeah, we just ask, you know. We will be there at midnight.” HB 8,5: “I don’t know. Maybe.” Guy A; “Alright then. Maybe we’ll see you there. Bye.”

And the guys return to their towels while the girls are in agony and looking at each other laughing out loud (the guys don’t see or hear this).

The interviewer ask the girls what they think of their approach: HB A: “Well, they are sympathetic, but they are definitely not my type.” HB B: “Yeah, they are not attractive at all. They look cliché. And their approach is not good. It's way too direct. In a different way, it can be much more exciting.”

Funny note: while you can see the girls laughing in the back (the guys don’t see that), the interviewer asks guy A what he thinks of his approach. Guy A replies (very serious): “Well, it might become difficult to establish a sexual relationship with them while they are still so young.” (I’m not making this up, these were his exact words. LOL. This is SO pathetic! HAHAHA)

Things to learn from this approach: a) Be attractive. Work on your appearance. b) Don’t try to impress women by looking cool. It doesn’t work. You’ve got to approach them. c) Don’t approach them without an invitation (eye contact) or a reason (can be a funny remark or something you notice in your surrounding “Look, a shark!” Now THIS gets attention ;-)). d) Don’t ask questions out of the blue. e) Don’t give away personal information for free (names, age, etc.). Rather be a man of mystery. f) Never ask a girl her age. It’s very rude. g) Don’t try to impress her by bragging about your previous vacations, girlfriends, whatever. h) Don’t ask for a date. Instead, set up an opportunity. And NEVER, NEVER say MAYBE. It shows you’re insecure and sets yourself up for a straight rejection. Guy A: “We just ask, you know.” Argggh get a life!

Enough. I’m getting tired of shaking my head.

Next approach. For your information: Gus is a guy from Morocco (tanned, not really athletic, but he’s very cocky and funny and has a playful look in his eyes). We see Gus standing in the sea among a lot of people. A couple of yards from him is an HB 9 who wants to go for a swim, also standing in the sea.

Gus (a little annoyed): “Hey! You’re making me wet!” and he spatters in the water towards HB 9. HB 9 laughs and runs back to the beach. Gus runs after her while making her wet. HB 8, a female friend of HB 9, is waiting on the beach for HB 9, is watching the whole scene and is laughing too. Gus exclaims: “You both have to come along!” and tries to pull them towards the sea. HBs : “No, no.” (laughing) Gus lifts HB 9 up and runs back with her in the sea. HB 9 is screaming like a little girl and HB 8 is following her girlfriend in the water. Lots of laughter and spattering. Gus and the HB 's are returning to there towels still laughing. They are sitting on the towels. Gus seats himself between the HB 's. Gus seriously to HB 9: “Do you have a friend?” HB 9: “Yes, I do.” Gus laughing: “But she doesn’t!” while he hugs HB 8 and kisses her on the cheek. HB 's laughing too. Gus to HB 8: “What is I love you in French?” HB 8: “Je t’aime.” Gus to HB 8: “Ah. Moi aussi” (I love you too), laughs and kisses her
again on the cheek. HB 8 shakes her head and laughs too. Gus then to HB 9: “Hey, she says she loves me.” HB 9: “Did she?” Gus to HB 9: “Yeah, she just told me she loves me very much.” Gus out loud to himself: “I want to make passionate LOVE with this woman!” And he tums on his belly with a big smile on his face. HB 's laughing again. Gus then to HB 8: “Does your girlfriend have a problem with that?” HB 8: “No, not at all. She is staying at the hotel.” Gus playfully to HB 8: “And we are going to my place?” (pause) “If you want to.” HB 8: “Ehm… No, first we are going to party and then we’ll see.” Gus to HB 8: “Alright. So later we can…(pause) Ok. Fine with me. Meet me at Kiss (name of club) at eight o’clock. It’s right there (he points towards the street).” HB 's looking at each other and laughing. HB 8: “Ok. We’ll meet you there.” Gus kisses both girls on the cheeks and leaves them.

Now this is a perfect example of being cocky and funny. Notice the kino and kisses he uses. Compared to the first approach, I’m sure you see the differences. Good luck with my tips! Enough for now. I’m going to fly off. C-YA.

Ethereal: (Commenting on: "MB: Come on, man. You can't be serious here. 100% of all guys I know including me, know whether or not they would sleep with a woman as soon as they see her. It's then up to her to turn us off by her attitude, not the other way around. If I see Halle Berry and she turns out to have an IQ of 20 but is willing to fuck, I am not turning her down. After all, it's her body I want not her brain when I am fucking her. It seems to me you have bought in too much into this NLP business at the expense of all other lines of thinking."):

I think it all comes down to the fact that people can be different. I used to be just like you, and looks, a nice ass and a good rack were all it took. Then, in March 1998, a phenomenal event took place which altered the course of human history: I met a woman, she was so damned determined, who practically seduced me (well, neither of us knows who seduced the other) - she was absolutely, spectacularly gorgeous and attending one of the best law schools in the country, where I was an undergrad. She was absolutely brilliant, sophisticated, witty, worldly, sage and BAM my whole world was knocked up, around, and down. When she induced that I was interested, her first question was "I have an interesting birthday, it's the Ides of March, can you tell me a little about what that means?" From there on we discussed Shakespeare, Nietzsche, Derrida, the nature of human desire... I couldn't believe that such an event could happen: Sure, I was attracted to her physically, but this woman was incredible, we connected on every
level, in every way. After that point, "just another hot chick" was NOT good enough for me. I could care less, they're dime a dozen. The direct "Wanna fuck?" approach does not apply. Seeing one does not guarantee her any rite of passage into my bed chambers at all. Talking, testing, etc. THAT does. But, this approach can be modified so that after the woman is tested, and passes, then desires are thrown on the line. I like that, and it works for me. But I also like to make them earn it, I like ambition. The key with this list is to take what each of us says, even if the angle is totally different, and apply it to our own styles. Critiquing the differences only illustrates the difference in the user's personality, and doesn't help things.

Onto something new: My friends and I recently have been observing women's behavior and determined that looking back at things, in our experience, the following signals almost absolutely guaranteed sex later "GTB, guaranteed to bone": -when offering a phone number, she offers not only 1, but 2 or 3 along with an email address or physical address -when she suggests to "rent a movie" -when she takes you to her place, under any kind of pretense (I'm only going to show you this, that, then "you have to go") AND locks the door behind her after you get in (some dispute and say anytime she takes you to her place) -when she comes to your place, and takes off her shoes -when you, not having explored the territory yet, grab her ass/tits and she doesn't flinch at all, or pretends not to notice -when she reacts strongly to the touch, moving or almost falling limp especially if you haven't touched her for a prolonged period previously -when you touch her, and you notice she feels like she's running a fever of a 103 especia
lly in certain areas (breasts, stomach, lips (both kind)) The following signals illustrate a desire to have sex "WTB, want to bone" but that still need further seducing, these happen usually before the approach; they're essentially a sign of the desire to be hit on: -when walking by, looking over at something in your direction, but not directly at you, in order for you to look at her looking -when walking by, a deer in the headlights look when the more you check her out the more she keeps looking, but not directly at you, just eyes wide open. You can check her out all you want and she doesn't look away -when walking by, flipping her hair (obvious) -when walking by, smiling or saying hi (obvious) -when walking by, looking down, but in your direction, which changes as you walk by (i.e. she keeps looking down but as you walk by her head turns toward you), sometimes accompanied by a peak-a-boo look at the end to see if you were looking and/or a smile -when walking in front of you, taking something from her purse/
front pockets and placing them very slowly into her ass pocket, leaving the hand there slowly as it withdraws -when walking by, attempting eye contact with you (holding a glaze extendedly), right until you notice and look back, at which point she looks away suddenly (sometimes looking back again later) -stretching in front of you in the gym (especially spreading eagle or bending over) -constantly adjusting her clothing, or smoothing it -the relentless, emotionless, reactionless "I want to something with you" stare -stretching to display breasts, then optionally, looking afterwards to see your response -pinching your ass, but pretending she didn't (at bars or parties) -intensely looking at another woman's reaction to you (that you know) and/or making threatening body language towards that woman Some verbal WTBs: -asking for a spot in the gym -starting ANY conversation AT ALL with you, when you do not know her (even if it's what time is it?, etc.) especially if you've seen her around a few time
s but have never spoken, and it isn't a function of her job, but don't rule that out either, and especially if there are plenty of other people she could've talked to but didn't -when checking her out, and you say nothing, she asks "What?" -asking if you have a girlfriend (obvious) / relationship history -asking what you did last weekend, or what you did in some kind of social singles setting -making excessive fun of you -acting excessively offended at your jokes about her (so that you have to "make it up" to her) -hearing her ask her friends who you were -when she talks about your reputation, or how she finds your reputation vs. what she heard (even if it's insulting or flattering) -when she comments how great you smell (almost a GTB) -making any kind of unprompted suggestion about what you should do "to get women" especially when that topic had never been brought up before

Can anyone think of others? Through the years I've discovered many signals that I didn't even know were signals, and this has helped me immensely. Hell, when I first started I didn't even know asking you if you had a girlfriend was a sign of interest, I thought it was just a normal thing for women to do.

HouseOFire: (Commenting on: "Mark B:. So there - make your needs known openly and you will not need any techniques or books or systems."):

Mark, I know your speaking from experience and I think you're onto something, but your conclusion doesn't follow. Being direct, making your needs known openly, works for you, but doesn't work for a lot of people. It didn't work for me two years ago. It works for me now. The question is why? I'd like to float the idea that what makes being straight forward work, and moreover what makes any approach work, including Ross', Sis', and Mystery's, is the attitude you project. The key component of that attitude is probably confidence and self-assuredness. I'd even go a step further and say that it is sexual confidence. We've all heard, and most of us understand, that most woman want sex as much as we do. But a big difference is that looks being equal, women do not find quality sex as easily as men. I don't have any surveys in front of me, but I believe that most woman who are currently with men are not entirely satisfied. It may be as simple as saying that most women wish they had a man who could stay hard long enoug
h to satisfy them completely, but they don't. If you go up to a woman and say how much you'd like to fuck her (put it more elegantly if you like), she's not going to respond very well if she thinks you're a two minute man, like she's had before. If you are a two minute man, you'll know it, and you'll probably telegraph that fact, or the fact that you've got some kind of problem, at some level. More generally, if you haven't made women happy in the past, you'll know it and you may have a hard time not projecting that. On the other hand, if you can look her in the eye thinking and believing you can fuck her like a Viking out of legend, she's likely to respond well.

Looks are certainly a factor, but one blown way out of proportion. Consider this: looks vary on a vast scale, from fat, short ugly, and ravaged to tall, thin, statuesque, and pure. You Mark, tan or no tan, diet or no diet, travel within a narrow range on that scale (I'm not even going into the issue of different tastes). This is not to say that your tan doesn't make a big difference. You've said it does and I have every reason to believe you. I've seen results from improving my style of dress (the Kenneth Cole black leather sports coat, from Sym's, works wonders for me). But I think the reason tanning works for you is more a combination of what it does to your attitude and what it says about you as a person (someone who gets a tan/cares about how they look) than about the raw sex appeal it gives you. A natural, straight forward attitude may be all it takes to attract highly desirable women. It may well be that a lot of us just tend to get screwed up or become too keenly aware of out own limitations somewhere
along the way. Just look at women. Doesn't it seem sometimes like most have severe emotional problems? It's my belief that Ross' genius lies in his ability to make people change their attitudes. He makes his points in such pithy ways that people can't help but change. Think about him describing a date as watching her "stuff her face with calamari". Think about his suggestion that you stop thinking about how you'll dress and start thinking about how to "capture and lead her imagination." Think about his notion that you never know what type she'll go for, so always go for it. Once you hear Ross express ideas like these, you tend to think deeply and change your attitude in the process, even if you abandon the specific ideas in the end.

I'll give my own experience as an example. I play sports that bring me in contact with some athletic women in their early 20's. I had myself convinced these women were unobtainable. After listening to Ross' course, however, I lay awake at night imagining how I would seduce these women using Ross' techniques. The fact is, that I never seduced a single woman using Ross' techniques. However, believing in the power of his approach, my confidence level shot through the roof and that in itself got me trying things until I found something that works. The specific adjustments I had to make included Sis' ideas. In particular, I found I needed to use a little more humor. It was in me all along, I just needed to bring it out more. I also needed to slow down a little, which I think makes me appear less needy. These were not big adjustments, but they made big differences. Whatever the case, I'm in a zone now and getting the results I want. I'm suggesting that the key thing is the attitude you project. If your projecting t
he right stuff, then go for it. If going for it isn't working, then you need to make adjustments until your projecting the right attitude. Then you can be more straight forward. Ross, Sis, or Mystery may help you to get the right attitude, even if you don't end up doing just what they do.

A final and controversial point I'd like to make is that way to much garbage has been written ragging on the dating frame. Avoiding dating is just another way of getting you away from your a mindset that's defeating you. The best PUA I know personally, a PUA with a lifetime score way in excess of 100, ordinarily operates within the dating frame. Dating does not equal no sex. In my experience of dating, fucking usually begins around the third date. I can wait that long for a good pussy, a pussy that I'm probably going to have for as long as I want. If you need to turn over women so fast you can't wait for the third get-together, if you can turn women over that fast, God love you. While I have found it better to avoid a conventional date, my imagination often fails to come up with an immediate alternative. Yes, I have blown money on a woman and felt like an ass for doing it. On the other hand, as your antenna get better tuned, I think that happens less often. You begin to tell the difference between one that'
s really interested and one that's just willing to go with you. I think if you've connected with a woman, taking her out to dinner before fucking her is no worse than kissing her before feeling her tits. It's all kind of a natural order, which seems to make them feel comfortable.

Brother Marcus Surrealius: (Commenting on: "Cliff: Put all this together and once you have a woman who has her children and a settled home life, does this mean that at that point she feels free and is most likely to indulge in extra-marital activities? If we can put away the politically correct response that this probably immediately engenders, it seems to me to be a natural progression. What do you think?"):

A great out-of-print book called The Erotic Silence of the American Wife goes into this. It isn't so much the home and kids that make women hungry for extracurricular fun, it is the fact that she often falls for the trap of making a happy home and a happy child substitutes for HER OWN happiness. The Erotic is more than just sex. It is enjoyment and pleasure in life overall. The ambient culture says to women that in order to be a good wife, they have to put others' enjoyment and satisfaction above their own. It smothers them, quite simply. It's their own decision, but they aren't told about the long-term consequences up front. So I would have to agree that, given the cultural demands on her, it WOULD be natural for her to progress to wanting someone outside of her marriage. I often think that this would be the reason that women like weddings so much more than men -- they give up more by getting married, so they want to make sure the party is REALLY good. Have you ever been walking with a woman along the sidewa
lk and suddenly happen by a bridal shop? It happened to me once. I hadn't done any seductive groundwork on her up to that point, but the TRANCE she went into at the sight of the wedding dress...WHOA. I kissed her right there, no resistance.