The waiters came by and started interrupting
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NEW FORMAT (AGAIN): I think I have it right this time. It seems that sending out emails with links in them is eroding my ability to send and receive email in general. I am already banned on numerous servers (if anyone has any real information on how to get off lists once you have been banned, please get in touch with me) and if I continue soon I will not be able to work with email at all. So what is happening is that I am going to post the email as I have been on the new site (although the promo section will be separated from the posting and have its own section soon) and I will continue to send out an "announcement email" which lets you know that a new email has been posted on the site. But now that "announcement email" will include the text or content portion of these emails but with no links in it. So you will now get Cliff's list the old way (sort of) and also be able to read it on the net the new way.
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CLIFF'S LIST TECHNICALITIES:
Here is the list of the last 5 emails that were sent out:
1) She doesn't turn her phone on all the time
2) The second she earns it, turn and face her
3) Every girl would be jealous of you
4) When animals mate, they smell each other like this
5) She had almost no choice but to go for it
Read them at www.cliffslist.com/archives
SPECIAL NOTES:
- All posts you see here have been submitted by the author, or permission granted by the author to be reposted here.
- Please read the promo section below as there are usually new things mentioned there each new email I send out. There are also many non-commercial announcements in there (eg. Lair news). The promo section will soon be transferred to a separate section on the website and will no longer be a part of the main email.
- This email originates in Montreal, Quebec, Canada - see below in the Lair section to read about activities in this and other cities.
Double Your Dating LIVE! NEW Seminar!
Los Angeles Mastery Program - Special seminar April 29 to May 2. This will be a one time, 4 day program, all new material.
Guest attendees: Cliff and David X!
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For more information and to sign up: www.doubleyourdating.com/cl
Real Social Dynamics Returns to MONTREAL! New Dates - will be held during the Montreal Jazz Festival which runs July 2-17, 2004.
See below for their full workshop and seminar schedule. TD and Papa leave for Australia this week! If you are there, don't miss this rare opportunity to take their workshop and/or seminar in Sydney.
Montreal Seminar - $300 - July 10-11, 2004
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you are also supporting this list.
Major Mark Returns to Montreal: *Beyond Seduction In Montreal* -- July 16-18. For more info www.trucor.com.
Ross Jeffries (www.speedseduction.net/):
> stRiPPed: Badboy concentrates 95% on attitude and inner game. I know there have been a lot of debates about which "approach" in the community is best, which in the end amounts to a pissing contest between commercial PUAs, competing for disposable income of the desperate and eager. To me that's all noise; I believe there is something important to learn from all the gurus out there.
Ross: I absolutely agree with this: you CAN learn from everyone.
2 issues come to mind:
1. How much of the "guru's" success depends on things that are not possible to duplicate for the student?
Should you really learn PUA and Seduction from a really good looking guy? How much of his success and attitude are supported by his look?
2. How good is the guru at actually teaching what he KNOWS? The skill of being good in the field is super-valuable, but not all people who are good in the field are also great instructors.
For example, a guru may not know himself what actually makes him successful. Or he may chunk things so broadly, such as telling guys to correct their "attitude" that he doesn't convey any useful technique to actually make the correction.
>stRiPPed: In the end it depends on how strong you are inside; the stronger your ego, and your inner state, the more likely you will be able to relax, connect with your true self, have fun and succeed. The moment of truth arrives when you realize you are strong enough to make it alone. Or when you are with a teacher whose only goal for three days is to help you get there.
Ross: Beautifully said. Well done. Now, what are the practices, beliefs, insights and other aspects that make for a "strong ego" and "strong inner state".
I believe the game of seduction is very much a mental game; you need to learn to observe your mistakes, count your wins, project success into a future that might at first look dark and uncertain, maintain your enthusiasm and courage in the face of not knowing where you might have fucked up or what happened; in a word, DISCIPLINE.
There is a structure to this. Lately, I've put much thought into those exact practices that enable a guy to keep going up the learning curve, no matter WHO he learns from, as far as "external game".
I think I will create a product on this; anyone following ANY system will cut his learning curve time by at least in half, if not more, and find the learning more enjoyable. Hmmmm...what a way for the ENTIRE community to benefit.
Hint: anyone curious, look up "Kriya Yoga".
>stRiPPed: He and Shark even teach direct approaches, telling women "You are beautiful. I like you." If your attitude is right, the rest does not matter.
Ross: Yes. Your attitude is like the conductive medium through which the electricity of your words will flow. If you try to pump current through cardboard, nothing happens. Pump current through a sheet of gold foil and you have the start of a circuit.
The issue is: who can best teach this inner game stuff in a way that empowers ANY other external game methodology you want to use? WHO has the goods for transforming guys whose past bad experience not only gives them cardboard, but dried up, crumbling cardboard?
Who has the tools and the experience in doing change work with thousands of guys using the best tools for the past 13 years?
> stRiPPed: I myself experienced the power and confidence of this knowledge, making the direct approach and having it work. I remember guys who succeeded in the past have gotten flamed by others who haven't had the direct approach work for them. I shouldn't have listened to them. The direct approach is gold; the best you can learn. Badboy trains his students very hard; he puts you in the ring with the heavyweight champions, and when you're done the rest is easy. If you can do that, you can do anything.
Ross: Try this: when you are direct, be matter of fact, and a little vulnerable. In fact, just blurt out the first non-x rated thing that comes to mind.
I do it like this. I walk right up and don't even say "excuse me" anymore.
I preface it with the following words, "It's just that".
As in, "It's just that you are so beautiful...I thought, "Go talk to her or you'll kick yourself for a week. I'm Ross." or, "You have to talk to her..and see what she's like."
Somehow, "it's just" really makes it work better. I guess it implies that you couldn't help yourself; you HAD to do it and you are honestly speaking your mind.
> stRiPPed: Badboy has an unorthodox teaching style. His workshop is neither a workshop, lecture, class nor a seminar, but a training, in which each guy was given large doses of individual attention. Each student was given specific exercises which Badboy had chosen for him individually. These exercises had to be repeated over and over until Badboy was satisfied with the improvement that had been made. These exercises are all interactive -- talking, walking, shouting, fighting, game playing, role playing -- all designed to turbocharge everyone's inner game.
Ross: There is some good wisdom in this. Getting people moving, talking, GOING is a great way to involve the left and right brain in the process.
You know, if Badboy ever decides to video tape this stuff, we might be willing to feature it in the Straightforward Catalog. It goes out to over 60,000 paying customers.
> stRiPPed: At the beginning of the first day, we took out the white board and wrote down sticking points and personal information on a separate sheet for each student.
Ross: I like that too. Good stuff.
> Carlos Xuma: As long as she is not REPULSED by a man's appearance, you can make yourself a lot more attractive by using the right posture.
Ross: Carlos, you are right. Want to get even RIGHTER?
The way a guy MOVES is even more important. If you can flow with strength when you walk, women love it.
I once had a woman tell me that she noticed me walking from over 100 feet away on the beach and she said from that alone she was hoping I'd talk to her. She said I strut like some rock star whose name escapes me.
I'll get even RIGHTER:
Learn to control the subtle energy flowing in your body and conduct it through your hands. You can turn a simple hand touch or thumb touching into an incredible bridge of sexual energy. This requires some meditation and breathing exercises. Maybe I'll do a video on this. Anyone interested? I could call it, "Secrets of Electrifying Sexual Touch: How To Get Women, Wet, Hot And Ready Through Simple Touch Of The Fingers, Thumb And Hand...in 3 Minutes Or Less."
> Carlos Xuma: Ever notice how a woman, unless she's visibly turned off, will ALWAYS describe just about every man she sees as "cute"? You have to be way off from her particular tastes to be ruled out based on looks. (*That is, until you open your mouth. : ) You can't wait around for the women who happen to find you visually appealing. That's the other side of this myth that creates men who settle for the first woman who will sleep with him - or live in fear of rejection.
Ross: I agree with this, for the most part. Some women ARE very rigid in what they like and NOTHING gets them past it. They are in the minority (15-20%) and are to be rapidly identified and skipped.
>> Mark B.: If a woman is attracted to a guy she will give him slack, room to connect with her and even if he does not get things right, she will forgive him to some degree because she finds him desirable.
> Carlos: Exactly. This I agree with. Attractiveness buys you some time and slack, something that less appealing guys might not get. It's a buffer zone to make a couple of goofs. But it still doesn't get her in bed with him unless she's really in heat for him.
Ross: Again, good point. From attraction, we need to move toward arousal. This generally requires having a good touch, some good sexual conversation to get her really heated up, some good state control, and an understanding of the timing, location and logistics.
>> Mark B.: He sees these signs and knows he only needs to do the minimum to keep her engaged. And when she is not interested, he knows there is little or next to nothing he can do to win her over.
> Carlos: If she has made the mental decision "NO WAY" then there are still methods, but most require more effort than is warranted for the reward of getting her.
Ross: Yes. Sometimes the "NO WAY" is a NO WAY to opening to any sexual connection. Or she's blissfully in love with a guy who's got her cumming like crazy. We DO need to know when to move on.
>> Mark B.: He goes overboard with his expression of interest and comes off as desperate and lacking. He shows he does not know how to recognize signs of interest or disinterest. Women tend to have a sixth sense about these things. She is able to smell out a man in advance and as he fails her tests, she moves on.
> Carlos: True, and I would add that most guys aren't aware just HOW QUICKLY she can pick up on the neediness of a guy. It comes off him in waves of stink, as if he'd been sprayed by a skunk. It's given away in the wrong twist of your head, or a question that says, "I'm subtly looking for your approval." This is why I preach that men MUST be dating many women at once, and even more so when they've found someone special.
Ross: Here's the SUBTLE point; if a guy has habitually responded this way, it takes a special clarity and discipline to catch this old needy behavior BEFORE it arises. NO ONE here is teaching that mental discipline. And it's a Catch-22; the more times you've caught a mistake before it arises, the easier it becomes.
To disidentify from deeply ingrained behavior, see it before it arises and then CHOOSE SOMETHING DIFFERENT is a tough yoga to do. It requires more than just telling people they should do it.
Right now, I think I'm the only one in this community teaching how to develop this self-awareness and corrective discipline. It's a core part of "inner game".
Carlos, I must challenge you: what specific mental practices and methods do you give your customers/clients/students to learn to spot errors BEFORE they arise, especially if they are deeply engrained?
Michael (www.thedatingwizard.com):
So much of success with HOT women is simply knowing the COMPLETE truth about their REALITY.
This is WAY more important than ANY "technique".
If you KNOW the REALITY about attractive women, in terms of how they have SUPER EASY access to INFINITE guys, and INFINITE validation, and how MOST GUYS HAVE NO CLUE about what is going on, and how women take ADVANTAGE of this, and how difficult it is for them to be seriously committed and respectful long term to ANY guy, then you IMMEDIATELY switch into a completely different mode internally regarding how to feel and behave around women.
For example, if you KNOW how NOT NEEDY women are, if you KNOW how many men they have at their fingertips, you realize that UNLESS you take a SIMILAR perspective and attitude toward WOMEN, you will come across as a COMPLETE LOSER or as a possible DOWNER to their life if they let you in it. i.e. you might want a serious relationship while they would like to get their fill of just partying it up, and that would be BAD BAD BAD - that is, unless they suddenly feel you are so cool and would LIKE to have a relationship with you, after being with you and finding out how not needy you are, etc.
Are women "cocky and funny"?
Why YES, they OFTEN are.
Why?
NOT because they read a book on it.
It's because they are CONFIDENT AS HELL when it comes to GUYS.
Are women "slightly arrogant"?
Why YES, they ARE.
Again, NOT because they read it in a book, but because AFC's MAKE them that way.
Are women impressed with guys who aren't afraid to bust on them?
Why YES, because most guys are so serious and relationship oriented and boring and stifled that women find it REFRESHING and STIMULATING to meet a guy who is funny, playful, not demanding yet challenging.
It actually all makes SENSE.
This has less to do with how women are biologically (although there ARE very SERIOUS differences in men and women biologically, including their brains, this is a proven scientific fact - just read Restak's book "The Brain" for more info or a thousand other books on the topic) than the simple reality of their situation socially from how most guys treat them.
Do hot women need science to catch guys?
No, they sure as heck don't.
That's because guys have the attitude that women are precious, and women know that guys have that attitude.
Because of this, even COOL guys are forced to INITIATE action (whether indirect or direct) and approach women, because otherwise the chicks would be perfectly content to do nothing but RECEIVE from all the guys who DO chase.
See how everything comes not so much from a magic technique but from KNOWING the TRUTH about what is going on with women?
That is why NO MAGIC TECHNIQUE on EARTH is going to make most of these women become good relationship material. That's because all the "techniques" simply are ways that you WOULD BEHAVE ANYWAY if you just knew the TRUTH.
I am willing to bet a million bucks that if AFC's just knew the TRUTH about most women, they would IMMEDIATELY STOP kissing up.
It wasn't a magic move, it was just KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
But of course most people would prefer to block out the truth rather than change their paradigm of the world, so you could yell all day in an AFC's ears about the truth about women, but he probably won't listen till he finds out himself.
This is why I think the whole "boyfriend destroyer" is a bit of a joke.
The women don't need MUCH to have their boyfriend destroyed. All they need is a nice argument with the BF and a nice excuse, and the feeling that their boyfriend is not so superior. That's why painting the boyfriend as a "nice guy" is the ultimate destruction because it makes him seem like he is inferior, thus killing the attraction.
The reason I've posted this is for any guys who are new to the scene, because I remember getting very intimidated by all the jargon and NLP stuff in the beginning, and ALSO because WAY BACK over TEN YEARS AGO, I studied NLP and value elicitation to "MAGICALLY" be the guy that women wanted serious relationships with. Well, well, well, guess what...sure, it can help to a small degree, but YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE FOUNDATION, the DNA of the situation...
THAT is why you hear about all kinds of MAGIC techniques to get women, but there are no MAGIC techniques for relationships. Well, well, well, guess what? WOMEN ALREADY WANT SEX!!!!!! You don't need to brainwash them into it!!
You just need to understand the SITUATION they are in and the realities involved, socially.
Most of the time, HOT chicks already WANT to cheat on their BOYFRIEND, it takes very little to get them over the edge. That's because most likely the guy is a typical guy and wants a serious relationship because he VALUES her a lot, since she is so hot. And of course he probably doesn't like it that she wants to shake her ass at every guy. And of course she doesn't like it that he doesn't like it, etc etc. It's like a time-bomb. Now, if the dude is a player and knows how to keep himself a challenge, she might value him a little more, but again, this is rare that she is with such a guy.
Sure there is the ASD and GUILT, but women are ALREADY LOOKING FOR WAYS TO GET RID OF THE GUILT AND THE ASD. But if you as a guy don't know that ASD even EXISTS, then you won't know to try to AVOID triggering it.
Think about EVERY "magic technique" you know, and then think about how all that is happening is taking into account the REALITY of what is actually going on with women. Even anti-ASD tactics, a huge reason that there is ASD in the first place is because women don't want to appear as easy, otherwise they would lose the respect of all AFC's, and all the commitment and love and security that AFC's offer.
If women weren't careful, if they had no ASD, then every guy including AFC's, would be in on the truth, and it would be open season for every guy to game any/all women without kissing up.
Only a small part of ASD is REAL "guilt" about it, although there is some.
Bottom line is that by far, it's MOST critical to know the TRUTH about women.
And there are many truths, many facts, that guys don't know about women.
"The truth shall set you free."
That way, you will be more relaxed around them, you will not pursue impossible goals, and in general you will behave in RELEVANT ways to them- i.e. relevant to REALITY.
The truth is that when it comes to success with hot women, some of it involves YOU making YOURSELF fit in to THEIR WORLD, and NOT the other way around.
I know this sounds like a contradiction to "YOUR REALITY OVERPOWERING HERS", but it's NOT. Because it's really a combo - on one hand, you make sure to stay clear of the things that make you unattractive like seeming serious about relationships, even if those things are "REALLY" you - even if that IS your world, on the other hand, you DO make sure to be very alpha, challenging, cocky, etc.
What usually ends up happening, though, is that you have so much fun living their lifestyle that you end up being the same as them in many ways - i.e. you become "spoiled" and "arrogant" and "overconfident" and everything becomes about FUN, and being PLAYFUL, naturally, from having so many women...just like hot women become focused on FUN, being playful, spoiled and arrogant and overconfident naturally from having so many men!
Separate post by Michael about bridging into longer sets, getting into genuine conversation.
I find that bridging into genuine convo always FEELS NATURAL after the girls have been laughing their asses off from cocky stuff, because they PHYSICALLY need a break and can slow down now.
Last week, I was with a dude and there were these 2 chicks doing a survey in the mall, standing around and they go up to us asking us if we can complete a survey. So I bust on them, but focusing more on one because they are similar in looks, and I disapprovingly say that this is a pathetic way to try to pick up guys...
They start to laugh as I take the board they have and the papers as if I'm inspecting them to see if it's REAL....she pokes me, I poke her back...she pokes me again, I slap her ass... she asks to start the survey I tell her we have to go... I notice her pencil has one of those PENIS HEAD erasers and now I REALLY pour it on...that she's a pervert, (now she's laughing her ass off and defending herself telling me it was her MOM that told her to buy a bunch of the penis head erasers - to which I told her something along the lines of her being from a trailer park and being white trash...and that it must be REALLY be a blast around her place on the holidays when even more wine...er...beers! are handy) ....after a while of this..i.e. CONSTANTLY interrupting her questions so that I DESTROY HER FRAME of me being just another dude walking by to ask questions to...i.e. "where do you live?"...so I tell her the subway tunnels...later on I use this as callback humor when she tells me she doesn't have a computer or email...
I tell her even in the subway tunnels, my fellow homeless dudes have Internet access...again, she is laughing...and I poke her away again...anyway, after a while of this, the dude I was with steps in and also starts chatting her friend...and I start talking with the chick about NORMAL GENUINE CONVERSATION...when she brings up that she isn't trailer park trash..so I ask where she lives if not in a trailer park...and that slowly leads to more real genuine conversation...about where we both live...and the subway being the best way to come downtown, and the crazy hard time finding parking if you come by car, parts of the city we both know, plenty of ammo that can be used to build connection, with the occasional call back humor to her being trailer park trash.
A lot of what happened was not canned, it was stuff on the fly, and just having a good time. After that, it's almost like you NEED to relax after laughing so much, so you start having some real genuine convo, almost like in a movie after a big action scene, there is a VALLEY to the emotion...there are PEAKS...and there are VALLEYS...if the whole thing was PEAKS, the audience would go crazy...
It's like it's RELIEF to now get into genuine mode, and also it's DESIRED, it's NATURAL for them to now want to find out more for real about this fun cool dude who you seem to be...
Maximillian Hell:
I have a PU journal up on livejournal. Right now it's mostly just a record of my sarges--but comments are welcome.
www.livejournal.com/users/maximillianhell
Goodley:
I go to alot of movie openings and really classy parties due to the work I do so I get to meet alot of wealthy people and successful women.
I find that going to parties at museums, art openings, fund raisers, premieres, etc., you meet really nice women. Beautiful women at clubs are hit on all the time. The hot girls that go to these events usually don't go to clubs or rarely so when they do go out they are really open to meeting people. Also the excitement of being at such an event has the women in a really good, positive mood. They go there with stars in their eyes trying to meet the man of their dreams so they are in a receptive mood. Plus if you go to these events, you already have social proof because they are fairly prestigious.
I would like to get out more often, but I'm usually seeing one or two girls. So I usually only get out one night a week. I really am just interested in 9's and 10's now.
I found NLP very helpful and I have trained with Richard Bandler and a guy named Stephen Gilligan. He is probably the best Ericksonian Hypnotist out there. He used to live with Milton. He was in with Grinder and Bandler from the very beginning and has written several well known books on Erickson and hypnosis. I also trained with a guy named Dave Dobson who is one of the hypnotists Bandler and Grinder modelled along with Milton. He is very old now and you have to go up to an island off the coast of Washington state to train with him but it is a very beautiful place. He did alot of co-training in the past with Bandler and Tony Robbins.
I had never heard of Speed Seduction before a year ago. I went to a guy named Kenrick Cleveland's workshop in South Beach. He has a site called Maximum Persuasion and there were about 25 people there and like 20 or them had been to Ross's seminar (some many times). Well, they are all talking about SS and I have no idea what it is. So I go out with some of the guys who were all into SS and some of the other PUA stuff. By the next day I was a legend with these guys. They were all following me and I was walking up to girls on streets, in clubs, etc., opening things up with women and then bringing the other guys in and having them whisper the SS stuff to me in front of girls or giving them the opportunity to do so.
A couple of the really experienced guys said I was one of the best they ever saw. Some of them have been to Mystery's events as well. I'm surprised because alot of stuff that I'm hearing is just the type of things that I already do. I think of it as joking. Like this 18 year old Los Angeles 10+ UCLA student was wearing (this is what my friend who is been into SS for like 10 years rated her) an orange jacket and I said to her "Do you work for Caltrans?" My friend said that's a neg hit. Then I turned my back on her and started talking to my friend real intensely. He's studied Mystery Method and started telling me this is all text book PUA stuff. I'm like Oh cool. Then I see her at the place where you get granola and stuff at Whole Food and I see her eating from the bins.
I say to her in an authoritative voice, "Ma'am, that's a health code violation." She laughs. She is like 5'11" and I'm 5'10" and I say "Boy, you're tall." (Again my friend says all that throws her off her game.) So I say I never went out with a woman taller than me, do you think I should try it? I sounded like I wasn't sure I really wanted to.
She said "Well, are you insecure?" .I said "No, not at all." She says, "Well, then I think you should give it a try." I say "I'm glad you suggested that. Jot your # down for me," extremely non chalantly. Like ho hum. I hand her a pen. She looks at me with like doe eyes, and says "Do you think there may be an age problem?" I say "No, I don't think you're too old to go out with me." Meanwhile I'm much older than her. So I go, "What are you, like 24, 25? She says "18." I'm shocked she was so sophisticated - a mixture of innocent college girl and sophisticated-extremely-sure-of-herself supermodel.
So as she says 18, I look pensive and say "Hmmm, that's alright" and she writes her telephone number on the back of an old concert ticket she had. This very experienced SSer who has also seen Mystery work was amazed.
When I'm on I'm on.
I have to be in a good mood when I'm on a roll. I have fun, don't get me wrong, most of the time I get shot down but my attitude is I'm out to have fun. I try not to have an agenda like go to bed with them, get a #, etc. I mean I do in the back of my mind, but first it's about me having a few laughs and what the heck.
I do have alot to learn. I do not have one of Ross's patterns memorized, nothing. I do know how to get them to talk about positive things to get them into state, elicit values, that sort of thing, etc.
I'm completely spontaneous. I just immediately go into the place thing of myself as a lion on the African Savannah and I go for it. Sometimes I think of something really good to say and the girl is into it and sometimes she looks at me like I'm a nut. Sometimes I can't think of anything to say and sometimes I say something really dumb and boring. Sometimes I'll say something deliberately goofy. It may sound weird, but one way I gain confidence is when I say something really geeky and act like a loser. After that, if I have the balls to appear like a loser to a hot girl then I have the guts to do anything.
If you wait you lose. If I walk in and don't get the momentum going immediately, I leave. Honestly I usually go out on my own because most guys slow me down. And if there is no one I'm really into, I go to the next place.
The other thing is the better looking the girl the better I am. I really can't get motivated for a 7.
I'm a great wing man, as you guys call it. I'm very generous and enjoy helping other guys out. Because honestly, I'm very picky so there are not that many girls I really want to spend time with unless I'm really into them.
I have started doing some stories like Mystery and I'm started to see some real success but I see that there is alot to learn in that area.
Papa:
LR: K-clubbing for Hot Table Service
Today, I decided to do something interesting that I've never done before. So I went K-clubbing for the first time with Alphamale at a club called Le Prive.
K-clubbing involves going to hot Koreatown clubs, where cold approaches are unusual because waiters introduce you to hot girls.
If you are a hot girl, you get into the club for free and get your own VIP table with a half bottle of alcohol. Ugly girls are rejected. This is the first time that I was able to get into the club as last time I went to Le Prive with Alphamale we got rejected because we are Chinese and this was a Korean Club where it's difficult to get into if you are a dude and you are not Korean.
Last time, they told us that our table reservation was lost, and then a bunch of Koreans went to the bouncer and talked to them in Korean, and they were let into the club. This club is the most high society club in LA, but you most likely cannot get into the club unless you are Asian as it is highly racist. It's all VIP tables, and executive suites, with an amazing laser light show.
Alphamale reserved us a table away from the Dance floor so that we could have conversations with girls. What happens in this club is unconventional to the PUA World. If you want to talk to girls at the club, the waiter will drag girls from other VIP tables to your table so that you can talk to them. It's kinda like Speed Dating.
All the girls are hot Asian chicks. We are given all you can drink alcohol and a dinner plate, and fruit plate. It's a pretty heavy cover charge for men, but hot chicks get their own VIP tables for free because the waiters tool them to go talk to the VIPs like Alphamale, his poker friend (who brought two pivots), and myself.
For about an hour, we chilled just talking about the logistics of the club. Alphamale and I had come up with some routines and stories to use for the night to remind ourselves of our game plan. We got to the club around 10:30pm. For the first hour, the waiters don't bring girls. The party started around 11:30. It was interesting as all approaches are warm.
At 11:30, the waiters start bringing gorgeous girls to our table every 10 minutes. They sit down with us and Alphamale and I had some pretty short sets with a bunch of hotties for our first hour.
Some of the girls would come by just because the waiters forced them to say hello and then walk away, and others would stay in the set for longer sets before either being dragged away or they'd eject with "Have fun guys [and giggle]."
Around midnight, I started to get the hang of things and I'd go immediately into qualifying the girls as if I was in a really snobby social circle. I run into a hottie Asian who said she was visiting from San Francisco for the weekend (which I find out later was a lie as she moved here).
AsianChick: Hi. My name is AsianChick.
Papa: Hey, I'm Papa.
AsianChick: I'm from SF.
Papa: Oh, no. [pushes girl away] I am from SF too. I can't hang out with you. I need a different girl. You look just like that girl from Fremont (a suburb outside of SF).
AsianChick: [thinks I'm serious and gets ready to leave the table] Ok.
Papa: No. No. No. [I put my arm around the girl and drag her back to the seat] I'm just kidding. You are cool. I'm going to make you my new homegirl. You're cool. Oh, I remember who you look like now. You reminded me of that figure skater...Kristi Yamaguchi.
AsianChick: Good.
Papa: You know, people in LA are not friendly enough. I was walking down the street today and I saw this little Asian kid. He was about 12 years old and looked really cute so I said, 'Hey, what's up, little guy'. And the guy made a really weird face like this. [I scrunch up my face].
AsianChick: Lol.
Papa: And then he did this. [I give her the middle finger]
AsianChick: Hahahahahahaha.
Papa: Yeah. I know. People in LA just are not friendly enough. You see, I took my friend roller-blading today. He was roller blading for the first time, and we went right by this kid. And I was pushing him because he never went roller-blading before. So I guess maybe this kid saw this because everyone else was laughing at us. You see, you know those movies where the guy goes behind the girl and he is teaching her to play pool and they move all sexy like this [me moving my body and arms as if I am standing behind a girl teaching her to play pool] or when a guy is teaching a girl how to play golf and the guy is standing behind her teaching her how to swing like this [me reenacting the situation]...well, I realized that that is what was happening so I let go of my friend, but he fell down. I guess that taught me that you can't let go of your friends.
We talked for a bit more and then the chick grabbed me to go dancing with her on the dance floor. I drag her onto the center platform where everyone would watch us dance and she gets embarrassed, but I force her to dance all sexy for me. Eventually the waiter brings her friends to dance with me and I got CB'ed and she returns to her table.
I return to my table, and Alphamale and I game up about 6 other sets of girls that the waiter drags to our table to meet us. Eventually, one of AsianChick's friends comes to sit with Alphamale. I tell her to grab her friend and bring her here. She complies and I isolate my girl immediately. I tell her a funny joke and make her laugh.
As my reward, I do some shots with her and then get her to kiss me on the cheek. Then, she asks me to kiss her on the cheek. I comply. Then I point to my other cheek. She kisses me. So I kiss her other cheek. Then, I say, "Hey, in Paris, they give big children's kisses and kiss each other on the lips", and then I grab her face and we makeout.
I start grabbing her breast and crotch area. She likes it and I put her hands on my cock, which she squeezed and then smiled at me. After awhile, she asks for me to go dance. We dance all sexy with each other and makeout every 5 minutes. So I isolate her at another table, where we start biting each other, and making out.
It was so hardcore that one of the waiters came by and started interrupting our session.
Waiter: Wong wa waha awwawer awa.
Papa: What, dude? I can't understand Korean.
Waiter: Wa wa wa wawwaea wa awaaaaa.
Papa: I only speak English.
Waiter: Dude, you gotta drag this chick into the bathroom.
Papa: Ok.
I continue to makeout with her, but the waiter interrupts us and tells us to get a room. The girl says she wants my number. I tell her that I won't give her my number, but that she should follow me.
So we get up and I go back to Alphamale's table, and tell him that I am going to pull and we say good bye.
We go outside the club and walk to the girl. Every 5 minutes, I makeout with my girl to keep her buying temperature up. When we get to our car, I drive back towards the Project Hollywood Mansion. Every red light, we grope each other and makeout. She says she loves me.
A money move that I'd use every few minutes to keep her buying temperature up is that I'd grab the back of her hair (near the roots) and yank, while using my other hand to clasp her chin to start making out with her. This really turned both of us on and by doing this every few minutes at the red lights, I didn't need to speak to keep her hot and ready to go on the long drive back to Hollywood.
We eventually get to the house.
When we get there, I immediately go to my bedroom and lock all doors. Fortunately, my interns and friends went to Mel's while I was away so I had the room to myself. I field-tested the Magnum-sized trojans to my satisfaction. After ripping the box open, I push the girl onto my bed and tell her to take off her clothes, which she does.
Then, I go down on her, and pull her on top of me to go down on me after about 2 minutes, but she instead starts grinding my legs. So I slide on my condom and let her ride me. She does a poor job, so I push her down and ride her until I came. Afterwards, I quickly washed my cock and took a shower with her.
She said she was cold, so I put her clothes on. She was so tired that she tried to put her panties on her head because she thought it was a dress. I helped her correctly put her clothes on and right when she finally put most of her clothes on, Kat (Mystery's wife) knocks on my door and brings in a set that Playboy pulled back to the house.
The AsianChick and I go downstairs after I get her number and I proceed to go to her place to get dropped off. What a crazy night for a first night in the Korean-clubbing environment.
So Khanh:
Guys, here's a short review of Field Interaction workshop by Angel, Lockstock and Ryobi, that I took in February in London. The workshop was specifically tailored for guys who have no problem approaching, but have not much success in their interactions with women, which fits my profile. The workshop was 16 hours long and spread over three days, Thursday night, Friday night, and all day Saturday.
On Thursday night, we met up at a coffee shop in central London. There's one other guy who was doing the workshop, so there's two students and three instructors. After a brief introduction of the instructors and students, Angel starts the seminar. It was two hours long and basically covered their standard model of pick up. Most of the material can be found in mASF, but it was more structured here. During the seminar Lockstock and Ryobi elaborate with stories from their experiences which were real eye openers and help greatly with the overall understanding of the material presented by Angel.
They also did demonstrations of body language when doing pickup and how to mirror body language to gain rapport.
After a two-hour seminar, our assignment for the night was to open 10 sets. Lockstock and Ryobi demonstrated an opener, and then we, the students did some practice. Then we headed down to a bar. I teamed up with Lockstock and the other student with Ryobi. Lockstock picked out the targets for me to open, after I had opened a set he dragged me away and gave me detailed feed back on my body language, voice, and how to properly interact with a set, spotting IOIs. We then headed to another bar in China town and switched instructors. I now teamed up with Ryobi, we opened a few more sets and Ryobi gave me feedback and pointed out a shit test. The night was a success I must have opened more than 10 sets, ranging from a two set to a five set. We then went to debrief.
I have to admit the personal feedback on my body language that night was a real help.
On Friday night we met up at the same coffee shop, and after a one hour seminar of theory on attraction, our assignment was to blow up five sets with attraction material. After some practice with Lockstock and Ryobi, we then headed to a club in Piccadilly Circus. I teamed up with Lockstock and he would pick a target for me to approach and hit with attraction material and then he would give me feedback and elaborate more on how to transition smoothly from the attraction stage to rapport stage. The feedback included negs, and how to neg so that it does not come across too insulting, how to not give your value away, etc. All the feedback was spot on and helped me a lot.
Lockstock also gave me advice on clothing style; subtle communications, not relying on canned material and just learning to talk about anything.
One thing that was a real eye opener that night was this three set that Angel opened and told me to get in to. Witnessing Angel running attraction material, I was lost for words, the target was really feisty but Angel just went in like a machine gun, bam bam bam with attraction material. I could not believe how far you can actually take the canned attraction material. I was literally out-alphaed by Angel and found it hard to continue with the set. I stalled a lot, but then just turned my back and then came back, reopening, once I thought of something to say.
After, we debriefed again in a restaurant in Leicester Square. For the whole night I did not manage to blow up any sets but I managed to transition from attraction to rapport with two sets, a successful night by my standard. Of course Lockstock was always there watching, pushing me, and giving me feedback on the whole interaction.
On Saturday we started early in the afternoon, we went over our sticking points that the instructors had noticed the other night and we went over them practicing. I practiced with Lockstock, he pretended to be a girl and I had to open him, during the practice he gave me a lot of feedback on body language, voice, and gave me new material to use, and how to transition properly.
After the practice section Angel went over comfort and trust material and street pick up, and how street pickup is different from club pickup. After the detailed seminar, our assignment was to do 10 sets of street pickup. I team up with Lockstock and we headed for Regent Street. It was my first street pick up attempt, and the feedback on body language on the street was real money, after a few blow ups, I managed to number close a girl. I opened lots of sets that afternoon. Lockstock also gave a demonstration with a girl working in a clothing store. It was a real shock to me how good you can get doing this stuff, within five minutes he got the girl giggling like mad and hitting him, a real eye opener for me.
We then headed back to the coffee shop to meet up with the other guys and finished the final seminar on Time Bridge. After the seminar we headed down to a club for dinner and then did our final assignment where we had to do the pick up properly with attraction, comfort and trust and time bridge. I teamed up with Lockstock. After getting blown out a few times, I managed to properly sarge a set where after I had run the attraction materials, ejected and then later returned with the comfort and trust material, I then did a time bridge but failed to number close. The final set for me was a lonewolf, and I was able to properly run the whole sarge with attraction and then transition to rapport, Time Bridge, and finally I left with her number.
To sum up, the whole workshop was a great help for me. The material was structured and well presented. For me the whole in field personal feedbacks from Lockstock was the real money. These guys do genuinely want to help.
They always push you a step further than you think you could. I would recommend this to anyone that has had little or no success in his interaction with women.
Mark B.:
I sometimes feel that we may lose sight of the big picture here by focusing on becoming masters of the study of the art of seduction rather than becoming masters of seduction. I believe that the value of such a forum as we have here is to help us along to realize where to effectively focus our energies in order to meet, and seduce women. That ultimately is the point here meet and have sex with women and not who is right or who is wrong. Still though challenging views and opinions is what keeps such a forum running along and if one guy somewhere out there succeeds in bedding some hottie then all this effort is well worth the time and energy.
On attraction
I have been a member of this list since March of 2001. Since that time I have realized that most posts and discussions tend to focus on tactics i.e. what to say, how to behave a certain way, and otherwise what to do while engaged with a woman in order to eventually end up sleeping with her. Conversely little discussion here tends to focus on attraction what are the elements of attraction, how to be as attractive as possible, how to tell whether or not she finds us attractive and otherwise. The odd time that attraction receives some attention, the pervasive assumption here tends to be that somehow we have to build attraction through words and what we do rather than how we come across. This type of thinking assumes that initially she is not attracted to us, that we have to do all the work and that we have to do certain things or say certain things in order for her to see us as appealing in some way. But her not ogling over a guy does not mean she does not want him, it simply could mean she needs time to feel co
mfortable to bring forth what is already there.
The way that I see it is that it’s important to properly define what is attraction in order to avoid missing what really determines whether or not we connect with women. As far as I have seen over the years, attraction is desire to spend time and engage in some sort of physical contact with a member of the opposite sex based on non verbal factors. From experience I have seen that one’s physical appearance, one’s height, type of dress, posture, demeanor, even one’s voice, how one carries oneself and what he represents as the major and defining factors in determining attraction, before any exchange of words actually occurs. What we actually say, in my experience has little if anything to do with helping to raise the level of attraction other than helping to nudge it along and prevent things from falling apart. We have to communicate somehow but I feel it’s important to use verbal communication to achieve some continuity of interaction rather as the main event for trying to raise the level of attraction. Simply
looking back and realizing that with women with whom I succeeded in dating and being with it really did not matter what I said or did as long as I was not an asshole or jerk and not too needy. And when I did not succeed no matter what I did or said made little or no difference. These factors have led me to this inevitable conclusion.
Feeling attraction is one thing but acting on that desire is another matter. Feeling that desire tends to be largely involuntary us as men including women either feel that desire or we do not. Acting on that desire is another matter altogether we need to feel motivated, open, comfortable, relaxed and otherwise. I feel it's important not to confuse a lack of desire to act upon one’s attraction from a lack of attraction. A woman can be attracted to a guy, involuntarily, yet still need to feel a feeling of comfort, relaxation, safety and acceptance from him in order to open herself up to him in terms of her availability and her sexuality. Hence when some guy ends up sleeping with a woman who initially acted reluctant, it may appear as though she was not attracted to him, while all she needed was to feel a comfort level to let herself go sexually. It’s easy to misinterpret her reluctance with a lack of attraction and eventual openness as a sudden change of heart.
I am very cautious about denying that one’s non-verbal factors have little to do with connecting with a woman and that we can get by simply on the basis of words and some seduction strategy. I know that it’s hard to look oneself in the eye and admit this fact especially when some guy feels there is little he can do about changing his level of physical attractiveness. Rather he prefers the head in the sand approach where he does nothing about his clothes or his hair or his physical shape and simply day after day does the same thing over and over again only harder and grows more and more frustrated with his lack of "entitled" success. However there is always something one can do to change things. Armed with this belief suddenly things do not look so bleak.
We have all heard about the woman or women who say "well, I love him for his charm, wit, personality, etc." or "I was not attracted to him or he was not my type, yet he grew on me and now I am happy with him" or "something just overcame me and I had to sleep with him because there was something about him". I do not doubt the truth of such statements. However it’s important to understand the difference between men and women when it comes to reading between the lines. Men tend to express a sense of pride in their desire for a woman physically desire for her on the basis of her breast size, the length or her legs, the fullness of her lips, etc. We feel little shame in ogling over an attractive woman and rarely if ever do we say "well she was not my type but I love her for her personality, she grew on me". Never!
Women on the other hand tend to be a bit subtler in their expression of physical desire for a man. Rarely will a woman say she loves a man’s hot buns, or his chiseled chest or his looks or his height. To see that these are the types of men that women want, all we need to do is simply look at how they respond to them. Such women tend to be looked down upon if she expresses a physical desire for a man. Hence a woman will tend to say she loves his charm, wit and his sense of humor as a way of masking her real longing for his mouth or his arms or how he turns her on just by virtue of the sound of his voice or some other attribute. They tend to feel the need to somehow reduce their sense of responsibility for her sexual desire. She would rather say that "it just happened" or "he grew on me" or "he was not my type" as a way of reducing her sense of guilt or even shame for appearing lustful and having sexual desire and acting upon that desire. Hence when a woman says she wants the guy for all the "other" non physica
l things he represents, I have learned to take them with a large block of salt, not just a grain. Women just do not feel comfortable expressing themselves this way and they’ll even lie to themselves about this topic, not just to us as men.
In my years I have learned that it’s more important to pay attention to what a woman does rather than what she says. I tend to question everything and anything a woman says until she proves to me with her actions that she indeed means what she says. The only obvious exception is when she says "no" or "stop" while you are trying to have sex with her, even if her body says keep going. Other than that I wait to see whether or not she indeed has the ability and willingness to follow through on her claims. If she does then I can take comfort in knowing perhaps she is being true to her word.
As I said earlier, to me attraction is feeling a desire to spend time with someone and engage in some sort of physical intimacy with that person. If a woman does not initially feel that sort of attraction, it does not mean that she does not have the potential to feel it later. She is indifferent and unaware of her potential. But if she does not feel attraction but rather feels some sort of physical aversion or desire to move away from the guy, then there is next to nothing he can do to reverse her feelings. Hence there is a difference in taking an indifferent woman and sleeping with her and taking an averse woman and turning her around a much more rare feat.
To me the difference between an indifferent woman and an averse woman is that the indifferent woman shows some sense of agreement to his suggestions and response but only to what he does without taking any initiative herself. She does not care either way. We do have some hope with this type of woman. An averse woman on the other hand puts up roadblocks and makes it difficult to achieve any meaningful level of connection, including actually having her face us and look at us while we try to talk to her. She looks away, walks away, mismatches and generally shows little desire to display any sort of agreement that would lead to some sort of continuance. An attracted woman on the other hand takes initiative, continues the conversation, smiles, and touches and even makes suggestions herself for some sort of later interaction and even sex. Hence for me its most important to determine her extent of responsiveness to me as a determinant of whether or not I am willing to pursue her further. If she shows signs of aversi
on I just do not bother. It saves time, hope and energy and most importantly allows me to free myself to pursue other open and willing women. But if she acts receptive then I continue. To me, having this ability to recognize qualified women, is infinitely more important than having the right technique or the right set of lines.
Note that you will never hear a woman say "well he was so repulsive or I felt aversion to him, yet there was something about him that made me want him" and actually have a woman be sincere and mean what she said. And even if she did sleep with a guy like this the reasons for doing as such usually reach beyond sexual satisfaction more along the lines of revenge or perhaps for money or status or perhaps she really did want this guy but felt shame in admitting it. I have a sense that most guys who assume that they must build attraction or that women are not attracted to them at first, tend to think that these women also tend to feel a sense of aversion to them and when they do succeed in getting these women, then somehow they succeeded in turning her around. As a society we tend to naturally look up to those who tend to overcome great odds and succeed. Thinking that we somehow turned around an impossible situation makes up appear more successful, when in fact the elements of success were already there.
I also feel that there is great danger in assuming that women are not willing participants in the game of seduction. They are. They want to be with us as much as we do with them. The difference is in outward expression of that desire. Hence many women will appear as though they are being made to be with a guy, made to sleep with him, all in an effort to shift responsibility from her to him. But deep down inside they want and need to let go as much as we do. Knowing and accepting this fact makes the game so much easier because all we then have to do is look for women that show a slight potential in giving in and going along, even though outwardly they may seem to need work or appear somewhat reluctant. In other words they want to give off the appearance of being made to do something rather than actually being made to be with a guy. Hence no one can actually make anyone do anything against their will outside the threat of violence of blackmail and if she did not want to go along, she would never have done anyth
ing she did not want to do. If she gradually gives into what we want, but makes it known that she is doing it because of the circumstances then we have an outwardly reluctant woman who deep down inside wants to let go.
If you have ever talked to women about their fantasies, no doubt many have said they fantasize about being forced to have sex with a stranger or someone they do not know. Others say they fantasize about sex just spontaneously happening unexpectedly in some unexpected setting. Many say they prefer not knowing that sex is going to happen until it's already too late and she is turned on and its too late to stop. I would say that with well over half of all women I have been with, they initially expressed reluctance to sleep with me for the first time until they found themselves in a position where the decision appeared out of her hands we were on my or her bed, making out, with her shirt off and she was already turned on and then it appeared she had no choice in the matter. It seemed as though her sexual desire was a separate part of her, over which she wanted to make it seem she had no control. Sure. In reality they full well know what is happening yet not wanting to appear slutty or too lustful so they concoct
a tale of not being responsible.
Accepting that deep down inside a woman also needs to be a willing participant tends to be harder to swallow because it tends to suggest that the elements of success and seduction tend to some or even a large extent lay out of our hands. We want and need to feel a sense of responsibility for our success, but not failure, and hearing that perhaps we are not totally responsible in terms of what we can do suggests a sense of helplessness. But when we succeed, our success was more to do with being at the right place at the right time rather than just skillfully meeting and seducing her based on our skills and our skills alone. There is more to it than we see, so to speak. Looking back virtually every woman I have been with, slept with, dated or otherwise knew, somehow prior to meeting and being with her, she admitted she made a conscious decision or was somehow open to the idea of being with a man or another man if she was with someone and I just happened to come along. So really the key is to be "the come along
guy" and seeing to what extent she is open and willing and whether or not she is reluctant for "show" or for real.
We also blame the romance culture within which we live. Diamonds are forever or the 10 year anniversary band or the flowers for Valentine’s Day or all the other gestures make it appear that women rightfully and dutifully should want men for what men can do for them. Where does his attractiveness come into play? It does not because if that suddenly became a defining point, sales of diamonds and all the other romantic junk would fall off.
Every woman in her life at some point dated or had sex with some guy to who she was not at all attracted but did so because she wanted to get back at some former BF who cheated on her, or she was just horny or she just wanted some company or some other reason beyond him. Just because at some point in her life she succumbed to some guy who was not her type, does not mean that women in general give into men to whom they are not attracted on a regular basis given some set of actions taken by these men. For this to happen special conditions need to be in place such as her deciding beforehand she is horny and wants to sleep with some guy, any guy. If some woman out there had sex with a guy to whom she was not attracted does not mean that that is the norm. But of course when we hear about it, we feel that if it happened once it can happen again or at least with some regularity. But hearing about an attractive guy who met an attractive woman, went on a date and had sex with her, does not arouse any excitement becaus
e it's expected. The nightly newscast does not bring news say from the state of Vermont where "today people, no murders occurred and everyone got home peacefully and well". My point is that even if somewhere out there some guy to whom she was not attracted succeeds in winning her over, such events are too few and too far between for anyone to seriously make such an approach a real and viable part of their strategy. It would take way too many women and way too much time and effort to make it worthwhile to try and turn around otherwise indifferent and averse women, no matter how hot they may appear and no matter how great such a successes story may sound.
For me it is preferable and more efficient by all means to simply test how a woman responds to me before I ask her out and make some sort of effort to get her in bed. I need to know that there is a high probability and high odds that I can win and succeed with her before I decide to put in the time and energy to win her over. I want to make full and best use of my time, and if I see that the potential reward of being with her and experiencing her sexually is not worth the effort I just don’t bother. I pay attention to see if she looks me in the eye, if she smiles at me, if she continues the conversation, if she shows any interest in me, if she squares her shoulders into mine, if she gives me undivided attention, if she appears responsive to me and somewhat agreeable and not difficult then perhaps she is attracted to me. If many of the above or even all of the above factors are present then I can feel fairly certain that if I put in the time and effort into getting to know her I can sleep with her within a rea
sonably short time. Also she may feel attraction but not show it but by acting like an idiot or trying too hard we risk appearing desperate all in an effort to take her out of her shell. We may kill the small seeds of attraction that may already be there. Hence as I said in my earlier post we move things along giving her an opportunity to show her cards by being calm, cool and collected.
Although I have never seen Tyler Durden and only saw Mystery in pictures, I am told that when Tyler goes out he "peacocks" meaning he dresses up while Mystery has a gothic look and is about 6’5". Both have something unique about them that non-verbally attracts women; TD his peacocking and Mystery his height and his gothic look making anything they say that much more meaningful. Women see the messenger first and then they hear the message and for these reasons these men are able to achieve some measure of success with women and have various verbal techniques work for them. Give the same lines to an average looking, somewhat out of shape, plainly dressed guy at some throbbing nightclub full of hot women and I highly doubt he would have the same success as TD or Mystery. I have seen the above described prototypical guys get shot down repeatedly. While out with some friends we met up a guy who one of my friends knew who ended up getting shot down about 20 times at www.thisislondonclub.com who kept on trying and i
n the end blamed non-responsive women rather than looking back at himself. His hair was a mess, his clothes did not fit him well, his colors looked mismatched and he had a belly. Would you date a woman who looked like this?
I have had a few highly successful friends and not so very successful friends. My successful friends tend to appear more attractive. They have a greater sense of awareness of how they come across to women. The more successful friends tend to show they know when a woman is attracted to them and they simply act calm, cool and collected when dealing with them. They tend to take more risks and tend to show they know when a woman is interested in them on the basis of how they react to her. Conversely my less successful friends tend to not be as attractive but mainly on the basis of not being aware of their need to have a proper and more appealing appearance. They appear somewhat out of control with respect to their hair, clothes, bodyweight and their behavior. They do not know how they impact women and try very hard to succeed and connect. Ironically I feel that if they became more aware of how they impacted women with their behavior and appearance i.e. dress type, haircut and others, they would undoubtedly achiev
e a greater level of success. The more successful guys tend to know that not every woman will want them or be attracted to them, while the less successful guys assume that every woman is or at least should be they feel a sense of entitlement to women while the more successful guys do not.
In addition to knowing what to say I would also take some energy to focus on ways of making oneself appear more attractive. First though I feel it's important to accept that one’s appearance, not just God given looks, and demeanor do make a difference in terms of how women respond to a guy. Clever lines and words are not enough. Extreme makeover aside, I would suggest trying different clothes or style, walking slower, more upright perhaps, keeping one’s head up, looking people in the eye, taking better care of one’s skin, wearing shoe lifts, smiling less or with less seediness, having a clean smell, speaking slower, a different haircut, losing weight, gaining weight, gaining muscle, getting a tan, fixing one’s teeth, doing something different and then paying attention to the responsiveness of women. A low risk way of checking if anything we have done makes any difference consists of simply making the change and going out in public on a busy street or a mall or even a bar and nightclub and then looking people
in the eye and seeing how they respond. If women hold eye contact or offer a slightly extended look then perhaps what we have done made some difference. As well, I have found that it's important to pay attention to what women don’t do when we are near by if they do not walk away quickly, they do not turn their heads away, they do not avert eye contact, they do cross their arms or drop their head then perhaps they do not mind your physical presence before we utter the first words and could be receptive if we do. While such reactions do not necessarily mean the inevitability of success, they suggest that a guy’s words may have more meaning and can lead to something because she does not feel averse to him or averse to some sort of interaction. There is potential.
PROMOS & REVIEWS SECTION (there are NO paid ads in this list and never have been. The "commercial" section is distinguished by the "--------------" separators):
DAVID NEWS:
We now have a new writer working on the book who is enthusiastically absorbing all of David's ideas and is working feverishly to get this show on the road. David has been doing a lot more personal consultations lately and will hopefully have his newsletter out shortly. We still need questions by email and it would be appreciated if you could ask David about any related topic that could be of interest (how to find, meet, attract, close and keep women, etc.).
Please send them to him at david@be-relentless.com. I would recommend you copy me as well (cliff@cliffslist.com) so I will make sure they get answered.
All subscribers of these emails will be given a free subscription and, as here, you can unsubscribe at any time. I know that you will find his comments and advice to be pretty unique and very useful. We are also making progress on the long awaited book which we hope will be ready relatively soon now.
The tapes of the David Seminar are now available and are being shipped upon receipt of your order, but please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. You can visit the website at www.be-relentless.com and orders should be made through paypal (go to www.paypal.com and send money to sales@be-relentless.com) if you need some other way to make payment, inquire at info@be-relentless.com. This product comes on two DVD discs for a total of approximately 6 1/2 hours of playing time. The price is $230 USD + $20 USD for the DVD which covers shipping and handling anywhere in the world. Inquire about shipping by overnight courier. These tapes are now available in a sound only version also.
Private in person or telephone consultations with David are available. David is particularly intuitive with regard to your specific individual problems with certain women. You can get on the phone, answer his questions on the situation, and he will give you very insightful advice on how to succeed in your particular mission.
PLEASE NOTE: This David is not to be confused with David DeAngelo of www.doubleyourdating.com (who has posted some great stuff here under the name "Sisonpyh"), or David Shade (of www.davidshade.com).
Blake Richards has put out a new ebook that looks very interesting. Check it out here: www.social-mastery.com/Game.html
Doc gives a class titled "How to Pick Up Women: Learn to Be Irresistible to Them!" in Toronto.
He also gives a "Power Dating" speed dating event there as well. This is a great opportunity to learn from a real master.
Real Social Dynamics WORKSHOPS:
I highly recommend that you check these guys out. Anyone interested in attending, email Papa at papa@realsocialdynamics.com with the subject "WORKSHOP" and mention that you heard about it from Cliff's List. Also note: RSD will consider working out payment plans to make their workshop affordable - mention this to them.
Real Social Dynamics (www.realsocialdynamics.com/ ):
Learn what works in seminar, and then jump directly into the field and watch the instructors demonstrate and teach it live. Stop feeling the fear of not knowing what to do ...
Classroom Seminars ($200 deposit required for signup)
Saturday/Sunday 11:00am - 9:00pm
New York Seminar - $300 - April 24-25, 2004
Los Angeles Seminar - $300 - May 29-30, 2004
Amsterdam Seminar - $300 - July 3-4, 2004
Montreal Seminar - $300 - July 10-11, 2004
London Seminar - $300 - August 21-22, 2004
In-Field Workshops ($200 deposit required for signup)
Friday/Saturday/Sunday 9:00pm - 2:30am
New York - Workshop - $600 - April 23-April 25, 2004
Los Angeles Workshop - $600 - May 28-30, 2004
Amsterdam Workshop - $600 - July 2-4, 2004
Montreal Workshop - $600 - July 9-11, 2004
London Workshop - $600 - August 20-22, 2004
Individualized Boot-Camps ($200 deposit required for signup)
Friday/Saturday/Sunday 1:00pm - 2:30am
· Individualized Boot-Camp -$1500 - Schedule Date/Location with Papa
Go to www.realsocialdynamics.com/ to signup for the next events on their schedule as they are launching a new program.
Mystery Method Workshops:
www.Mysterymethod.com is now activated again and Mystery is now giving seminars and workshops.
Two Hour Introductory Seminar April 16, 2004 Los Angeles, CA $50
Regular Seminars:
April 24-25 , 2004 Los Angeles $500 ($400 for past students)
May 22-23, 2004 Hawaii $500 ($400 for past students)
June 26-27, 2004 Chicago $750 ($650 for past students)
Mystery also offers In-Field Workshops, which are limited to only four students, and One on One In-Field Mentoring. If you are interested in either of these programs, please contact his business partner Herbal at herbal@mysterymethod.com.
Swinggcat has published a new ebook which you can check out at his website at www.realworldseduction.com. Those of you who remember his outstanding posts here will be anxious to get this as soon as possible. Highly recommended.
Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction Seminars (www.speedseduction.net/)
Advanced Speed Seduction® Seminars
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
New York, NY May 7, 8, 9
London, England September 3, 4, 5
Speed Life Seminars
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
Cancun, Mexico November 7 thru 13
Your Mind in Business
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
Dallas, TX June 21-25
Major Mark (www.trucor.com) has announced his schedule for 2004:
*Marknosis And Magick In Miami-- May 7-9
At the heart of every effective Change technology -- like organized religion, psychology and magick -- we find a common set of states and effects that allow you to truly experience and subsequently Believe. Join us in South Beach as we explore the hypnotic elements of Ritual and Magick. Sun, surf, sultry nights and amazing sights as we create our own body of powerful personal rituals for self-exploration, self-development, and the quest for Power and Influence in this world as well! Come for the toolbox of techniques that maximize influence within ritual behaviors, or just come to step through the looking-glass and begin living
*Beyond Seduction In Montreal -- July 16-18
Cliff's Comment: MONTREAL!!!!
*Introduction To Hypnosis -- The New Curriculum -- Las Vegas September 20-24
This year we were asked by a national hypnosis group to develop a New Curriculum for the training of hypnotists -- one which would reflect the absolute best of what has always worked while incorporating our own cutting-edge discoveries. We wanted a curriculum that was so comprehensive in explication and exercise that the graduates could walk into an internship anywhere in the world, secure that they were the best-trained hypnotists in the place. The result is being rolled out over five days in Las Vegas. This is your chance to immerse yourself in the most comprehensive approach to powerful, positive, permanent change ever presented!
Send mail to Cassi@trucor.com with questions or comments about these seminars.
Call to register: 419 882-8543 or go to www.trucor.com
Double Your Dating LIVE! NEW Seminar! We will be reviewing all of the new DYD products here soon, including the monthly interview series in which David DeAngelo interviews "Dating Gurus" such as Ben (), David X, and many others.
2004 Tentative Seminar Schedule:
Los Angeles Mastery Program - Special seminar April 29 to May 2. This will be a one time, 4 day program, all new material.
London, England, July.
New York September.
Las Vegas beginning of December.
You can order all your DYD products and register for seminars through this link: www.doubleyourdating.com/cl
Riker's Seduction Log - Live Seminar
If you always wanted to hear more field reports, with full details, and even some recordings, then this seminar is for you. Dave Riker (Ross's co-trainer for those of you who don't know him) spends about 3 hours each evening going through his personal Logs and notes and provides full reports on sarges, many from start to close (finish). And that's a full "close" by the way, not just an email address or phone number!
The seminar is held in conjunction with Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction Seminars. Ross's seminar is during the day (and Riker presents at that too) and then Riker does his seminar in the evening. And even if you do not attend Ross's seminar you can still attend Riker's.
For full details see the web page at: http://www.daveriker.com/logseminar/track/cl.htm (site is either inactive or no longer relevant)
Be sure to check out his "Reviews" page on his site. Many guys that have been in the game for a while, and attended a LOT of seminars, were just blown away by Riker's Log seminar.
Introducing 1 on 1 Badboy workshops:
Badboy is a Croatian PUA from Zagreb who has spent almost 4 years in the game. He is also a respected poster in Mystery's lounge.
To see some of his stuff, search for posts by "croBadboy" on mASF or read one of the recent issues of Cliff's list.
Workshops are 1 on 1 for 3 days.
Each day consists of a 4-hour seminar and 5 hours of active in-field work. Each night you will make 20-30 approaches with your teacher to get field experience. 1 on 1 training makes it possible to answer any questions you might have and cover the most important aspects of the game in detail. Teachings are tailored to your level in the game.
The basic structure of the workshop is:
Day 1:
Social intelligence/emotional intelligence
How to dress, peacocking vs. dressing style
Alpha-male bodylanguage secrets
Attitude (inner-game) and getting a good seductive voice
Difference between emotional and party type girls
Social dynamics in clubs (2sets/3sets/lonewolves), know your city
Openers (sets with males vs. only-girl sets)
Day 2:
Difference between PUing alone and with a wing
Different tools for getting attraction
Power of contrast (bad boy & nice guy in one)
Stealing their frames
Passing shit tests
Push-pull
Isolation tactics(2steps)
Day 3:
AMOG tactics (the AMOG handshake, group set AMOG destroyers)
Boyfriend destroyers
Passing LMR
Secrets of good sex
How to manage a good relationship
More bodylanguage secrets
How to turn Coffee dates into fuck-fest in just 1 hour
How to turn a 0$ date into a time she will never forget
Difference between PUing in different places (small towns, big cities, colleges and the difference between certain clubs and the girls who go there)
Badboy says he can write a pages of what he does with guys because it's not just PU. He opens their EYES to LIFE, to understand how to live successfully.
For more info, email Badboy at badboy@playboylifestyle.net. See Badboy's new website: www.playboylifestyle.net
Thundercat's Seduction Lair
Get the latest News, Rumors, Tips, Tricks, & Analysis on the Pick-Up and Seduction community! The site is updated daily with lots of free and exclusive content.
Also a good way to keep up with things without having to navigate mASF. Drop By TSL today! www.thundercatseductionlair.com
The Art of Approaching: Learn to meet ANY woman, ANY time, ANY where. The most difficult hurdle for most men to overcome is that of the initial Approach. This comprehensive eBook gives you over 35 unique Openers, as well as a step-by-step roadmap to help overcome your fear of approaching forever!
www.thundercatseductionlair.com/ebook.htm
Impact Interaction (www.impactinteraction.com) @ London
Angel Caido, Ryobi and Lockstock have been running Workshops and Seminars in London since the beginning of the year. The workshops are small in size (trainer : student ratio of 2:1 as max), so students get personal attention on sticking points.
The workshops include:
- Basejump: For approach newbies who need to get internal game and basic attraction skills in gear
- Field Interaction: To perfect your bar/ club and street performance
- Solid Game: Everything good except lots of flakes? Few end results? End to end game sticking points covered…
For more information go to www.impactinteraction.com or contact them @ contact@impactinteraction.com.
Have you ever asked yourself...
* What does it take to make a woman feel totally comfortable making out with me - even if she barely knows me?
* How do I get women to WANT to sleep with me? After all, what good are all those "bedroom techniques" I learned if I don't even know how to get her back to my bedroom in the first place?
* Why do women melt around some guys, but they are totally unresponsive to me? What do they have that I don't?
Wouldn't it be nice if you knew a guaranteed way to "get physical" with any woman you go out with? Have you ever been on a date with a woman, and wondered *how* you can start "making out" with her? (by making out, I mean kissing, hugging, holding hands, etc.)
Jason King has just released a not new report that will teach you everything you need to know about getting *close* to a woman on a date.
Jason is an absolute master at making out with a woman on the first date. Whenever he goes out with a woman, he seems to put them under some kind of "love spell", and they want to make out with him more and more as the date progresses. By the end of the date, the women usually invent all kinds of excuses to invite him back to their place.
There is NO other person out there who is teaching these skills. If you've ever wanted to learn how to make out with a woman on the FIRST date... not weeks or months later... you MUST check out his site.
Visit this site:
http://www.sexualrapportmodeling.com/jump.php?a=2350 (site is either inactive or no longer relevant)
Daniel:
If you are looking for a wing and you are a guy from Romania, you can check on our forums at www.seductierapida.ro/forum and you might find one.
Carlos Xuma:
Time is running short for all of us, no matter how young or old you are. Don't waste precious years learning by trial and error (and most likely not at all). Get the information on how to improve your dating life TODAY. Make the changes you need to make to get the love, sex, and relationships that you want and DESERVE to have. Download THE DATING BLACK BOOK right now at: www.datingdynamics.com/ebookstore.htm
Ben () (@.com ):
Ben has a system and set of Tarot Cards that he his going to be launching soon. Find out more at his website.
P.S. Try magic words 'ben' 'rap' and 'nlp'.
A few sites to check out:
Mike Pilinski is the author of "Without Embarrassment: The Social Coward's Totally Fearless Seduction System"... a unique method of meeting girls that will have you making up for wasted time spent living in shy-guy hell from the very first moment you test it out. Check it Out Here => www.highstatusmale.com/.
David Wygant (www.whatsyourexcuse.com & www.mydatingagent.com).
Swinggcat: www.realworldseduction.com
Erick Kand has a new website that showcases Hypnosis Stage Shows for fun and entertainment: www.HypnosisEvents.com
The Foundations of Seduction
Hi, you know something? When it comes to seductionhey, when it comes to ANYTHING--how you feel has a huge impact on the results you get. But the way you feel doesn’t have to be determined by your surroundings, your expectations, others’ behavior, or the tides and stars. You can guide your own feelings. By doing so, you can adjust and enhance your results. You can replace frustration with the satisfaction of tangy, blood-red, salty-sweet resolve. When you can change the way you feel, you can change what you experience… and what you encounter… and then the world stands revealed as something you yourself partially create. Sometimes, to begin claiming the victories you deserve, all you need is a simple little tool: a way of channeling your own emotions. A way of tapping your inner fire. A way of taking that inner fire, and letting it melt your external obstacles. A way of changing all that you feel, about all that you experience. Of course, you may not need or want such a tool. For some, the ability to guide and
drive one’s own emotional experience is pretty basic stuff. Some people shrug off rejection, feel wonderful almost all the time, and easily attain their goals. If that’s true for you, and you don’t think you can add to your abilitywell, you may be right. In that case, my new CD may not be for you. On the other hand, should you want a tool meant to ease the transition to seductive success… to productive success… to any kind of success, maybe this new CD can be of use to you. It’s called "Foundations of Seduction". You can get it for $29.97 plus $5 Priority Mail s/h, by going here: www.sexualkey.com/ Just enter "$34.97" into the FlexPay box and then email me at info@sexualkey.com with your shipping address and a note that you’ve ordered "Foundations of Seduction". If you’re outside the U.S., please add an additional $5 for shipping. Have fun! JD www.sexualkey.com/
LOUIS AND COPELAND'S "FREEDOM WITH WOMEN" SEMINAR DATES
Freedom with Women seminar in NYC May 14-16
To find out more about "Freedom with Women", contact
davidc@howtosucceedwithwomen.com
Advanced Macking:
In case you want a step by step guide on how to get into one-night stands, check out Anthony Berger's Advanced Macking manual. What makes it unique is that it is engineered towards making it happen the same night you meet them. To learn how to persuade women back to your pad, check out his site: www.advancedmacking.com/Discount.htm
Michael:
If you want to improve not only your game, but also your understanding of women on a deeper level, so that you can have more successful relationships, you've got to come out to The Dating Wizard Seminar in downtown Toronto, Saturday May 15th-Sunday May16th. It will be two FULL days of non-stop IMMERSION giving you a whopping,eye-opening insight into how to be successful with women on a whole new level.
Special guests TBA.
To learn more about this special seminar, go to:
And follow the "Seminars" link.
And if you want to focus on sharpening your pick up skills, you can now arrange one-on-one workshops with me where I'll work exclusively with you to improve your skills. This workshop will take you out to malls, clubs, and the street to do all forms of pickup. For more info go to thedatingwizard.com/workshops.htm .
And if you haven't downloaded my eBook, "The Dating Wizard: Secrets to Success with Women", then that's the place to get started. It's about being THE MAN at all times, and keeping that frame of mind always. I've also included the concepts and info that I found to be most important regarding LTR relationships.
Download it now at:
And follow the link to "About The Dating Wizard"
FREE HYPNOSIS MINI-TUTORIAL
The UltimateSeduction Yahoo group, at groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/ is sponsoring a free one-month mini-tutorial on Conversational Hypnosis. This tutorial, presented by the hypnotist Archangel, is sectioned off into five parts:
1. Trance Words
2. Rapport
3. Persuasion Anchoring
4. Pacing, &
5. Leading
Although less than halfway through, members are reporting some highly entertaining, and some startling, success stories. The UltimateSeduction group has the advantage of having more than a few women on-list, enabling members to get some very pointed straight talk on their techniques. There is nothing to memorize - only a handful of very simple, and very effective, techniques. The group is gaining about 200 new members a week and is lightly moderated.
Anyone may join the tutorial at: groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/
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