Her arms around my neck without ever meeting her before

Ross: (Commenting on: "I was like a kid in a candy store... so many choices each more appealing than the next."):

Hmmm...has it occurred to you that perhaps SOME of the very beautiful women present ALSO had that thought? Only, in this case, the "candy" is attention and adoration from men, without the HB 's having to give much or ANY recognition back. That, to THEM, that IS what "being a hottie" is all about.

(Commenting on: "I didn't want to be seen going from woman to woman and it was so crowded and everyone was watching everyone."):

Everyone was watching everyone. Hmmmm....and what do you suppose they were watching for? How does this play into status, perceived value, something (receiving attention) in exchange for nothing (giving little or no attention/recognition back) or at best, teasing?

(Commenting on: "I took an hour to be picky and scan the crowd thoroughly... finally I picked this HB8 who looked like an African-American version of Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island. Maybe an HB9. She was receptive to my opener. I ran a bunch of arousal patterns... ending with the one about taking a bath and she got visibly turned on. She accepted and returned a ton of kino (it helped we had to get close to hear each other). I asked her favorite food, which was Italian. I asked, "How wonderful would it feel to picture you and I enjoying the best Italian you've ever eaten" (which would have been even better if I were Italian... harrr). She said, "It would probably feel very good... but, I'm seeing someone.""):

Then what is she doing there? Do you think perhaps she had some vague idea of what she would receive at the club and what she was aiming at getting or did she just go out with no idea in mind? Why was she so receptive to your initial "opener" and other attention? Did she show YOU any genuine interest in YOU? Ask any questions about you? Show you ANY genuine warmth? Or was it all about the performance you could offer to HER?

(Commenting on: "Walking over to him, this HB10 saw me, assumed I was going to talk to her, and started radiating the negs , she even ran a few steps away. I zipped past her and started talking with the guy, noting her expression... kind of disappointed. She started inching closer to us and, when the guy noticed, he said, "Hey, this beautiful young lady knows more about the club than I do" and he stepped away. I started with some fluff but it was going over like a lead pipe. I segued to humor and she just said with a sneer, "I don't care to say anything to you.""):

Wow. I bet this was the FIRST time she had EVER spoken and acted so rudely and dismissively to a man before in THAT environment IN HER ENTIRE LIFE! Hmm....do we see a High School mentality operating? Everyone watching everyone? Status and dominance being of utmost importance? People offering performances with a hope of getting something ? I think to a lot of these HB 10' s and such, the club scene is one big theatre where they can play act and give the APPEARANCE of sexiness rather than manifest the reality of being a sexy person. They can give the APPEARANCE of being receptive, and indeed, maybe even really be responsive to kino , etc., but they seldom feel any need to really BE friendly, warm, inviting unless they perceive someone is of the proper degree of coolness, is hip, in, whatever enough.

(Commenting on: "Well... I had a Ross J sleazoid comeback ready to fly, but it was like 2 a.m. and I was getting tired, so I just joked "very nice liquid nitrogen. May I have another?" This actually got a smile but she forced it off her face, trying to keep her bee-yotch exterior. I bid her adieu, "excuse me as I go and thaw myself out" and returned to the bar for one final pass."):

The "bee-yotch" exterior IS PART OF THE FUN FOR THESE GIRLS IN THIS KIND OF PLACE. It's part of the role that conveys the status. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE MOSTLY THERE FOR AND NOT TO GENUINELY CONNECT.

(Commenting on: "At this point a lot of people were leaving together and a lot of guys were getting phone numbers, so I figured I'd go for broke. There was a young HB7 around 19 or 20 who was hanging by the door. She was eyeballing me and started primping, putting up her hair and cutting the eye, so I went over and said, "looks beautiful... but I like it better down." A bit of fluff talk but mid-way my batteries were like running down near zero and I just didn't care anymore, so I gulped down the last of my drink and departed. General observations: I noticed that the more beautiful the woman, the less receptive she was to an approach. These typically ignored all approaches and hand-picked a guy."):

Because she has a license to do the choosing in this environment. It's that power that is as much the fun as anything that results from the choice!

(Commenting on: "And, in most cases, they picked the guys who looked like they stepped out of a low-rider. Us noids in the Armani and Cerruti suits got ignored."):

That's probably the fashion preferred for guys in that club or that part of town. She's picking what the other players of her status are perceived to like.

(Commenting on: "So I had to laugh... the night I should have been dressed to the nines I wore leather. The night I would have done better in leather I was in suit and tie. I also noticed that the women who bared the most flesh were more self-conscious about it. A couple dozen came in with their boobs pushed up and out of their tops, yet they did the typical "offended" behavior if you looked and did the drawing of attention (by touching or adjusting) if you didn't look."):

What is the difference between someone who IS sexy and someone who can manifest the IMITATION of sexy? It's all play-acting. It's THEATRE.

(Commenting on: "A) The importance of Planning. I knew before hand the kind of situation I would be in, and that I would get my chances with the HB 's. But my overenthusiasm for dancing fucked me up so that later I didn't have enough energy left for the crucial part."):

This is about controlling your intent and how much intent you put into any one activity.

(Commenting on: "Prophet: Girls sit and listen and watch me wide-eyed when I recite patterns. Thank you, Ross Jeffries for being a geek just like me!"): Well, now that I have been doing Yoga and gotten the LASIK surgery on my eyes so I don't need glasses, I am MUCH better looking...too good looking to be a geek, but I'm still DEFINITELY a DORK!

(Commenting on: "Cliff's Comment: Here are some dating sites that I got off the site Askmen.com. Askmen.com is a pretty interesting site (Dr. Dennis Neder, who gets these emails and who has commented here in the past, does a regular article for them) and it originates here in Montreal. It is below #400 in the most visited sites on the Internet (they've had something like 53 million page turns) and the average visitor spends about 123 minutes on their site which is far above the competition, from what I understand. The comments that follow the addresses are from the Askmen site, and are not from me. They even rank the sites (note the "10/10" after Doc Love's System): Doc Love's System www.doclove.com/ The single man's best investment. 10/10\"): Ok..let's clear this Doc Love stuff up. I know about Doc Love and his system. In fact, I know Doc Love. In fact, I used to assist at his seminars back in 1984-1985. His "system" is pretty primitive stuff that relies on keeping the girl guessing and playing a pretty passive game of waiting to see how interested she is in you. It WILL work...if she is already attracted to you somewhat, it will build interest over time and over time it will help you avoid the killing errors that could blow things. But if she is NOT attracted, it will not help create that attraction. And the worst thing is...IT'S MORE "DATING" STUFF. It all takes place in the traditional "dating" framework. I'd say it's of interest the same way an old IBM 360/91 mainframe is of interest to a guy who builds/designs/runs Cray Super-computers...a fascinating relic of a by-gone age. Otherwise, forget it.

Dr. Dennis Neder: Thanks for the "honorable mention" in regards to askmen.com. askmen.com is one of the best general information sites out there, and I recommend them highly. Kenny Wilson (of Dating Insider) and I are working on a new site that may be of interest, "SinglesFAQ.com" that will be very much "askmen"-like and I'll keep you posted on it's progress.

Caco: askmen.com has a good thing in Doc Love but the site has a scamster when it comes to The Player (look for "Adventures in Sex"). He ass just rephrases ASF shit out there calling it his own . emasculates it .. and comes up with things like the players ' three second rule ( www.askmen.com/love/player/48_love_games.html ) and shit like neg hits on ( www.askmen.com/love/player/52_love_games.html ) which is about seducing a barmaid but has rings of Mystery's stripper rules. Either the guy is Mystery himself .. or he's a scamster!! Check out Formhandle's post on ASF about this dude.

Mystery: My website has changed to www.Mysterymethod.com . It's also been updated.

Magic Juan: (Commenting on; "She replied in a nasal tone reminiscent of the millionaire's wife on Gilligan's Island, "You're a stranger, why should I speak to you?""): With delighted surprise: You know, I often ask myself the same question before speaking to an unfamiliar person. And I've come to realize that I never really find out the answer to that question until after I speak to her. Sure, I could end up wasting my time overall; if I find out she is the kind of cold person who would dismiss someone out of hand -- even before giving herself a chance to discover what kind of laughs she could have with a fresh, new acquaintance -- but then, if we don't even bother to try, we might never know what kind of warm (endearing, talented, whatever) person stands before us. (All with the appropriate pointing.) And so, given your initial response to me, the question I have to ask you is: do you want another chance?

A guru master: (Commenting on: "Caco: [snip]I totally agree with your observation though it does not apply to my case per se. First, here the problem was that I had almost ALL my relatives there"):

Who cares what they think. They are just jealous. Flirting and fucking is your business, not theirs, just don't nail her right there on the dance floor.

(Commenting on: "Caco: [snip] I wanted to convey enough personality to her ignoring the bf just focusing on what her DEEPEST desires were and linking them to me besides delinking them from the bf ; )"):

WHO CARES about what she thinks! Want to know her deepest desires? She wants a man who is funny, romantic, and strong. Want to 'link them to you'? Guys always ask me how to do this, and I could never understand why. Obviously they are being waaaaayyyyy too covert to begin with.

(Commenting on: "Caco: [snip] I portrayed myself there as the grinding dude not someone unique. I should have had a better game plan."): Everyone on this planet has a different footprint. I still don't understand why guys are trying so hard to be unique. Because all I have to do is SHOW UP! You guys are thinking too much.

Cliff's Comment: Not everyone can be as unique as you, great guru master.

(Commenting on: "Caco:I just forgot all about the whole system of what to say when."):

Again, you're too concerned with what everybody thinks. But if you say what's on your mind without filters you won't ever run out of shit to say, especially if you put yourself in a powerful state before you go out, and maintain it.

(Commenting on: "Caco:I tried to get to know what is it that she wants and then give it back to her both verbally and non verbally."):

Who CARES what she wants? FORGET what she thinks! Do you honestly think that an 18-22 year-old little girl knows what is good for her?! PUH-LEEZE! Ross said something that really stuck with me. The most powerful word you can use on a woman is the word NO.

When you elicit her values, tell her no! Tell her she's close....but no cigar! Then tell her YOUR values. The one's I learned to say are Honesty, Trust, and Respect (in that order). Since I believe in them, I can persuade her.

The most important thing I have ever learned is to stop caring about what other people think. Do I ever put my foot in my mouth? You bet! But who cares, as long as I am having fun and learning. Learning this was easy, because in order to engage in the activity of caring what they think you have to do something inside your head. Caring what they think is a verb, it's a skill. The way I did it was I would stop and see myself through other people's eyes. That was the main thing that was responsible for 99% of my hesitation.

I was amazed to find out how often I did this, and how much it got in the way of my PU game. So I stopped.

(Commenting on: "MrT: I am having problems visualizing. I just can't seem to do it. I close my eyes and think of an object or place, at best I get a blurry distorted picture"):

The first step is in realizing that you DO make clear images, just because you can't see them consciously doesn't mean shit. DREAMING is a nice example of that.

If you want to see clear, focused images, you need to add in the dimension of feelings and sound. For example, picture a blender in your mind. Now turn on the blender and hear it VVVVVVVVVVVV!! See? Now physically put your hands out and feel the blender as it rumbles and shakes like crazy.

Now, I'll bet that when you jerk off at night, this is what you do naturally. Perhaps you see a nice pretty face and a mouth licking your balls...and as she licks your balls you can begin to feel what it would feel like if a drop of her saliva were to slide down your dick... and you can hear her moaning with pleasure as she slowly sits on your cock. Excuse me, I have to go now....

Matthew A.: (Commenting on: "Kerry F.: (Commenting on: "Matthew A.: (Commenting on: "THE UNKNOWN! (Not reviewed) HYPNO-TECH Here's another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven't gone through the old emails to check. "Do you Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out? hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/hypnotech" I got the course ages ago with my buddy and I came to the conclusion that it was just another spin-off of RJ's stuff. The main difference with Dr. Mojo's stuff is that he described a number of number of Magick and Psychic Seduction techniques."): Same here. Although, Ross is moving more and more into Psychic Seduction. But, in order to learn what he teaches you have to attend a PI seminar if there is one this year. I've never been to one, but I know those who have, and the word is IT ROCKS! Of course, Ross just put out a new video set for PI.

(Commenting on: "Now I tried out his techniques for about a week and a half every day for approximately 15 minutes then I gave up after having no signs of affect whatsoever. (Matthew, did you find those techniques powerful?) Also his course never makes much mention of his "Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?""): Yes, I used his techniques with success, but keep in mind, I have two years experience with Magick. The lesson to learn: there is a lot more going on than what he describes, and his techniques are universal (Remote Viewing and "Stepping into the Person" which you can find on ES) except for a few specifics. For example: I never thought before to give her worded thoughts. Either that same night, or the night after (after I practiced the technique), I went out to dinner with my father. Our waitress at the diner was stacked. She had a great, healthy energy, and she had brains too. I decided to step into her and give her the command, "You want me!." For the rest of the night, she flirted with us and took the time to hold her end up in conversations. When we left, I gave her a compliment on her energy, and she "accidentally" grinded both breasts against me. Another example: I was walking down the crowded street in Jersey City yesterday, and from the back I spotted a girl with a nice ass and tiny figure (my personal taste). Mind you, we were in a crowded sidewalk, and she was a block away. I focused my energy on her with the same intent as the waitress, and the girl STOPPED, and looked back, directly at me.

Dan: I run a website, www.playerware.com, that offers a software program called Playerware, which I designed specifically for men who like to date and interact with a large number of women. The program is essentially an electronic chick organizer. It contains features such as contact management, photo storage, an electronic journal, a sophisticated rating and comparison system, date/interaction tracking, as well as other unique features. Visit the site and you can get a 40 day free trial. Full registration is currently only $15.

Isaac: (Commenting on: "Prophet: Girls sit and listen and watch me wide-eyed when I recite patterns."): Is that doggy dinner bowl or what?

(Commenting on: "Started Speed Seduction about ten months ago, did the work memorizing about 6 patterns and using the 3-second rule. With practice I got calmer talking to HB 's."):

No doubt constant work and practice will deliver the skills.

(Commenting on: "Finally, this summer, while on vacation at home in Canada, I was walking into an ice-cream parlor on the beach with my two little nieces and nephew."):

What better social proof than that you're trustworthy enough to be left to handle three little happy kids in public.

(Commenting on: "A hot babe was sitting there on the picnic bench with her girlfriends. When my small relatives and I left the parlor, the HB smiled at me."):

I think some people would refer to that smile as an IOI ...obviously you were in there before you said a word.

(Commenting on: "I said, "Hi", got a good response and said, "Has anyone ever told you: you are a shining example of genetic and physiological perfection?" Of course she laughed and I responded with, "I´m glad you laughed because although you are truly stunning, I wanted to see the personality behind the beauty..."):

Successful combination of humour with an indication to her that beauty alone does not cut it...she'll be ready to show more personality now...

(Comment> before I introduce myself. My name is Prophet." Then I did the eyes pattern..."):

Here's where the preparation comes through. In conclusion: Prophet I don't know what you look like..whether you're tall dark and handsome or just an ordinary Joe, but it is clear that you've been able to combine what you naturally are with the skills you've learnt when the perfect opportunity arose. You inspire.

Gregory Rasputin: One thing I keep in mind while sarging : Say you see a sexy girl, and you use that line of "Hey, do you have theatrical training......because you have great posture", and she goes "Ah...ok". That's a great line, but when will it NOT work? When the girl is immature. I'm sure that some of you here sarge chicks who just finished high school a year or two ago. You can't expect to charm them with a line like that. They're just not mature/intelligent enough yet to appreciate that. This is when you have to use that bratty sister frame. Maybe the numerous methods of seduction are scrambled in your head, because so many people here focus on teasing, and playing with the girl, and yet so many others here focus on how to be a charming, charismatic sweetheart. I'd like to untangle the wires in your head for those of you whose picture is blurry. For the more mature girls, you don't really need to tease them. Usually you don't need to go beyond a little bit of play fighting, and if you tease them too much, they might start taking you seriously, and actually take offence. So for those girls (the mature ones), use everything that Ross has to offer them + some good intelligent conversation. Note how Ross treats his girls like adults, I never once heard him go into the bratty sister frame. This is mostly because he's screwing around with mature girls. Do you think that a 17-18 year old chick will understand half the shit he's spewing? She'll usually go "huh", because 1) she doesn't care so much to experience the 'wonderful connections' as she'd rather just have fun and 2) she hasn't been on this Earth long enough to appreciate what's truly rare, so she cannot appreciate you ; ). On Saturday I was in the car with 3 girls, and 3 guys. They were all in the age range of 18-19, but at the end of the night I had the hottest girls there (definitely a nine) on my lap, with her arms around my neck without ever meeting her before, and I didn't use a single pattern, an embedded command, or a time distortion. It was all just because I kept making jokes. One thing I keep in mind, as soon as she began laughing at my humor in general, I began making fun of her. She said "Let's go buy some alcohol, so that I'll be in a more party-like mood", and I said "and then you'll talk less too, right?" She showed us her boots (they were those really long boots), and when she accidently hit me I said "Damn it, why do you have to bring your work boots into the car?" (implying that she was a hoe). You could never get away with something like that with a mature girl, but this was exactly what this girl needed to hear. Once I saw a cocky young girl sitting on the train, and I come up and say "Hey, do you mind if I ask something of you?" She said "Sure", and I say "Can I have your seat?" She was like "Wh..at?" So I say, "Well it's already warm, and I'm kinda cold...would you really want to have me freezing on your conscience?" This was just a cocky, humorous opener, that I'd prefer not to use with the more mature ladies. With the older ladies I do things like "Hi, I just noticed you from over there, and wanted to come over to find out what you were like." Get it? So, I guess that my point boils down to this: As soon as you can decide what kind of girl you're dealing with, you should know whose material to use. If she's a young, fun loving, immature girl, use Mystery's stuff (and Sisonpyh's somewhat), but if she's well read, can carry on a very intelligent conversation, and is more experienced, practice your SS . Because really, can you see Mystery sitting at a coffee table for 2 hours, discussing existentialism with a philosophy graduate (no offence to you at all Mys, as I know you're very intelligent, but I'm saying that this isn't the type of girl you'd go for), and can you see Ross in a nightclub impressing the 20 year old ladies with his dance moves? (Again, no offence to you Ross, I'm just saying you wouldn't care so much for that night life us teenagers love so much ; ) ). You can't say that one system is better then another, or that one is too simple, or that the other is too complicated. You just have to know what kind of furniture you're making, to know what tools you need to use. ; )

Franky the Tux: About 6 months ago I took up a martial art to learn self defense. A couple of months earlier I had suffered an unprovoked attack. Up until that time I had always relied on my situational awareness and ability to talk to prevent a fight from beginning. I was not prepared for being blind sided. Instead of just signing up for the first Karate or Kung Fu class that I found I decided to make a study of the martial arts to see what the differences were between them and which ones might be better suited for me. What I found was that the martial arts could be divided into two main camps: Hard styles, which featured kicks and strikes (Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, etc.); and soft styles, which featured joint locks and throws (Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, Judo, etc.). A third camp would be weapons training (Kendo, Kobudo) but I was only interested in the hand to hand arts. After some study I decided to learn the Korean martial art of Hapkido, which is a predominantly soft style art which also mixes in some of the kicks and strikes of the other two main Korean styles, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do. (Both Hapkido (Korean) and Aikido (Japanese) were developed from Japanese Ju-Jitsu and all three have much in common, one being that they attempt to use your opponents strength and moves against him. If you have ever watched a Steven Seagal movie you have seen Aikido in action.) One of the things I discovered is that in each of the arts, sometimes shortly after it was founded, that various "schools" developed usually from the teachings of "star pupils" which emphasize different aspects of the art. An example of this was Bruce Lee who practiced Kung Fu but developed his own unique system which is called Jeet Kun Do. It is not unusual to see 2 or 3 schools of practice with even the more obscure martial arts and with major ones such as Karate there could be five or more. My instructor holds black belts in Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, and has also studied Judo, wrestling, and boxing. One evening he told me about a series of events on TV called the ultimate fight or fighting. At first the concepts seemed pretty brutal. There were very few rules. What my instructor found compelling was that it pitted people of different fighting styles against each other: Kick boxers, Judo practitioners, Karate, street fighting, Ju-Jitsu - you name it. What was found was that when an opponent was taken out of his normal method/environment of fighting (for example a Karate fighter taken to the ground by a wrestler) he was out of his element and didn't know what to do. He told me that eventually people who participated in this started to cross train in other styles so that they could compete better, and this has been good for the martial arts as a whole. Now, it's not unusual to see techniques and styles bleed over from one art to another. So what does this have to do with seducing women? Glad you asked. It's easy to see from this that no one style of fighting is perfect or the best. Certain styles work better under certain circumstances. Recently I re-read through Cliffs previous mailings going back thru last year. So the running arguments of the past about SS , MM, Sis's techniques, the use of patterns, etc., were fresh in my brain. What occurred to me was that these major "styles" of PU were like the different styles of martial arts. Let's say for the purpose of discussion that Ross's SS is like the hard style of Karate or Tae Kwon Do. He uses the patterns to strike right at the subconscious mind and desires of his "victim" (not really a victim, just being congruent with the metaphor I am using). Sis's style is more soft oriented using his "opponents" weakness (insecurity) and strength (desire for control) against her. Mystery's could be likened to Ju-Jitsu's ground grappling techniques, he goes for it in the high pressure, high distraction club scene and demonstrates social proof and alpha male characteristics right in front of the target , sometimes wrestling directly with her, sometimes ignoring or neg hitting her until he's ready to make his move. (I've watched my instructor grapple with students, often letting them have the upper hand for awhile, conserving his strength and waiting for an opening to exploit while they expend their energy.) Even within the major PU arts there can be different "schools" of approaches of applying the technique. For example, Brother Riker's application of SS to online personals. The implications for newer students like myself is that while I may want to master a certain style like SS I should try as much as possible to "cross train" and at least learn the basics of the other styles. That would give me the best chance of success, no matter what situation I find myself in(cafe, party, club, etc.). That is why though Ross is my main "Sensei" I pay close attention to what the other masters post here to learn as much as I can about the other styles. Cliff floated the idea of pulling together the various masters and students to discuss there techniques in Montreal. We should all be enthusiastically supporting this idea. Can you imagine attending an event with martial arts masters in the various disciplines teaching you there favorite moves? You would probably feel you could kick any non-practitioners ass if you had too. Now imagine doing the same thing with seduction masters and star students. The HB 's wouldn't stand a chance! So Cliff if you are still interested in hosting such an event, count me in. I will do whatever it takes to be there. I'm glad that Ross, Sis, and Mystery are not masters of each others styles as well as their own. They would be getting laid so much they wouldn't have any time to contribute to this list!

Cliff's Comment: I am still thinking about it and hope to hold it next summer. Stay tuned for more news, same Bat station, same Bat channel!