The way I look at it, it's just a question of WHO has the might
This is Cliff's Private List, a free e-mail relating to seduction. Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from people commenting are separated by IIIIIIII with each commentator's name preceding each comment. Comments from previous emails are preceded by an ">", usually in front of that commentator's name). Feel free to forward this email to all your friends and encourage them to request a free subscription.
If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list to receive this, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be removed to cliff@cliffslist.com and it will be done. If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.
All emails should now be sent to cliff@cliffslist.com. Hitting "REPLY" to this will no longer result in my getting your email - make sure you enter in my address.
Cliff's List Website NEWS:
This is the final format (well, for now, at least) with an "announcement email" going out to all subscribers which lets you know that the latest Cliff's List is now posted on the website AND includes all the text from the latest email. So you will continue to get all the material by email just that it won't have any links in it other than a link to the website where you will be able to see the whole email intact.
The old website will soon be changed to just refer you to the new website, but for the time being there are still some items on there you may want to check out.
www.geocities.com/cliff604/CliffsList.html
Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of what this list is all about. Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are on the website also, as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.
CLIFF'S LIST TECHNICALITIES:
Here is the list of the last 5 emails that were sent out:
1) Every girl would be jealous of you
2) When animals mate, they smell each other like this
3) She had almost no choice but to go for it
4) The waiters came by and started interrupting
5) Just remember it's you're train - she just gets to ride on it.
Read them at www.cliffslist.com/archives
SPECIAL NOTES:
- All posts you see here have been submitted by the author, or permission granted by the author to be reposted here.
- Please read the promo section as there are usually new things mentioned there in each new email I send out. There are also many non-commercial announcements in there (eg. Lair news). The promo section will soon be transferred to a separate section on the website and will no longer be a part of the main email.
- This email originates in Montreal, Quebec, Canada - see the Lair section to read about activities in this and other cities.
Real Social Dynamics Returns to MONTREAL! New Dates - will be held during the Montreal Jazz Festival which runs July 2-17, 2004.
See below for their full workshop and seminar schedule. TD and Papa leave for Australia this week! If you are there, don't miss this rare opportunity to take their workshop and/or seminar in Sydney.
Montreal Seminar - $300 - July 10-11, 2004
Montreal Workshop - $600 - July 9-11, 2004 (NOTE NEW DATES)
Cliff's List is now an RSD
affiliate and if you sign up for their workshops and seminars by clicking www.realsocialdynamics.com/
you are also supporting this list.
Major Mark Returns to Montreal: *Beyond Seduction In Montreal* -- July 16-18. For more info www.trucor.com. Planned Guest attendee/trainer: STEVE PICCUS!
New Dating/Seduction Seminars & Workshop in Montreal by DOC!
Doc, who many of you know from his all too rare but outstanding posts on this list, on Mystery's Lounge, and the Montreal Lair, is bringing his seminars and speed dating events to Montreal. Previously they were mainly held in Toronto as part of the Learning Annex, Doc is now setting it up here and plans to hold events on a monthly basis.
The website (which should be active by June 1) is www.setnalife.com. The first seminars should be held shortly in Montreal. Registrations available on the website. The events are Dating Secrets for Women, a 3 Hour seminar (cost $50) and Dating Secrets for Guys; a Guide to The Art of Dating (also 3 hours and $50). There will also be a speed dating event in the evening for $50. You can contact Doc by email at seduction.school@sympatico.ca
In addition, Doc plans various self improvement programs, including getting over shyness, couples issues, an entire range. There will be seminars every Thursday night and workshops on weekends. There will also be a Weekend Make Over program, where they take you shopping for clothes, hair, etc. and redo your look and presentation.
This is a great opportunity to learn from a real master.
Clifford:
Robbed by Courtney Love!
I have just returned from 10 days in sunny Los Angeles where I had the honour and privilege of spending some time with a number of old friends and fellow pussy hounds like Ross Jeffries, Papa, Tyler Durden, Mystery, Style, Dr. Alex Bender, J. Zen Goodley (see his great post below), Deep6, PlayboyLA, Xaneus, HerbalT, David DeAngelo, Craig, Little Big Dick, Steve Piccus, Ben (), Mark Cunningham, Thundercat, Swinggcat, Dreamweaver, The One, and many more (sorry if I forgot to mention you). I arrived on a Friday afternoon and stopped from the airport to spend some time with Ross, who is looking energized from his yoga practice and who is coming out with some really fascinating products shortly. From there I continued on to the Project Hollywood Mansion, where I was staying as a guest of Papa, the financial brains behind the Real Social Dynamics team. The RSD guys were all in NYC doing a workshop that weekend (Papa mentioned to me the fascinating statistic that they have done workshops for 50 of the last 70 weeken
ds) so I had his luxurious room to myself. The Mansion is Dean Martin's old home and is located a 30 second walk up the hill from Sunset Boulevard, right next to Mel's Diner (their sales must have dropped this week, since I had to be their best customer last week). The location of the palatial PUA estate is outstanding - you are a short walk to really busy nightclubs (such as The Standard, Skybar, Whisky, and the skank infested Saddle Ranch). No wonder these guys are out every night - with great weather like they have there you can't stay in, and you just walk down the street and there's so many options. The first weekend Mystery held a seminar at the Mansion which he managed to conduct with complete professionalism despite his being greatly distressed over the recent break up with his "wife" (they had gone off to Las Vegas, returned with rings on their fingers and told everyone they were married. This turned out to be a hoax, but Mys bonded with her and was really affected when they split. One thing about th
e guys in the Mansion - they are out every night. The first night I went out with Mystery, HerbalT, Style and one of his girlfriends to The Standard. While there I opened a fairly attractive young lady who started fondling my breast (paying particular attention to my nipple). I took her hand off and told her "hands off the merchandise" but she was very persistent! I said to her that if I did that to her it wouldn't be too cool at which point she opened her shirt, exposed her breast and started playing with her nipple. L.A. Gotta love it. I did not pursue, in case you are wondering, despite a guy she was with who was pushing me to go after her. I went out one night with Dr. Alex Bender who showed me the underbelly of Santa Monica as we caroused in a variety of night spots on Main Street. Another night I went out with J. Zen Goodley and a girlfriend of his (I told them a story about an ex of mine who had gone out with a guy who was very well endowed, then went out with a guy who was the complete opposite and th
en there was me - I told her it was just like the three bears: "This one was too big, this one was too small, but this one was just riiight!"). The Mansion go a bit crowded when the gang returned from NYC. The place has women coming in and out of there like running water - Style had at least one or two women there at almost all times, PlayboyLA and Tyler pulled women back to the place pretty much every night. Mystery was soothing his wounds by picking up 10's one after the other - it was pretty impressive. Of course, the main reason for the trip was to attend the 4-day Double Your Dating Mastery Seminar as guest of David DeAngelo. It was one of those times where being an insomniac came in handy as we'd come in each night at 3-4 a.m. and then get up to be across town near the airport for the seminar every morning by the start at 10 am. Tyler sleeps in a closet in Papa's room when he is in town and I had the role of alarm clock - so every day of the seminar I would knock on his door and say "Time to get up, clo
set boy!" I miss doing that. The DYD seminars seem to be developing into the "Cliff's List" of seduction seminars, with an array of seduction and PUA teachers all getting up to speak and explain their various styles. And you never know who is in the audience - one of the newest subscribers to this list is Sean Stephenson (see his website at www.seanstephenson.com) who is a very remarkable individual who had most of us rolling with his sharp wit throughout the weekend.
On Day One, David X had the crowd in hysterics with his hilarious interview with David DeAngelo. It seems some of the guys in the audience had a hard time believing his explanation of some of his very direct approach - that is understandable if your only exposure to him was watching him on stage here. But he is totally congruent and it is something to see when he does it. Mystery did an excellent presentation of his nine stages of how an encounter progresses, from meeting to sex. He even credited Ross for some of his innovations during his talk (both spoke highly about each other to me privately - a big change from the heated debates they had on this list awhile ago). Amber Lupton (www.loveslight.com) gave a very unique talk about how guys should get in touch with their "heart-connected" selves, which will convey a lot of warmth and love to women which, she claimed, women would find irresistible. Mark Cunningham gave a great speech (he was finding it hard to just sit there and let others take the floor, but w
hen he got his chance he demonstrated why he is Major Mark). Hypnotica (www.hypnotica.org) and Steve Piccus gave a metaphysical twist to the proceedings with their trance inducing presentation. Marie (a NY relationship counsellor who was interviewed on the DYD interview series) had the floor with David DeAngelo and not only explained her perspective on relationships but made it clear that Mystery was right on the money with his ideas. Probably the highlight, though, had to be the series of Real Social Dynamics guys going up one after the other to show their stuff, starting with PlayboyLA who launched into 10 minutes of material that he uses in an actual pick up (it is no surprise that this guy can charm the pants off most of the women he meets anywhere, anytime). Deep6 had everyone rolling with his various comedic PU tactics. Papa, Sickboy and Xaneus also gave inspired speeches but no one can talk PU like Tyler Durden. There is going to be piece on him in Rolling Stone magazine in the next month or two - don'
t miss it! The man is so impressive with his bright, clear, forceful and insightful explanations. The community is very lucky to have him around. David DeAngelo's material contained a lot of new insights and he taped this seminar which will be released as a new product shortly. It was great to be able to spend a few minutes with David D when I sat next to him at the VIP dinner - we have been friends for a good 6-7 years now, long before he ever thought about DYD, but it's been hard to find some time to talk recently as he is completely dedicated to making the best products he can. He even left after the dinner to keep working and refining his material for the next day's presentation.
While I was away from the Mansion with the guys, their newest housemate, Courtney Love found her way into Papa's room (which had the door closed) and helped herself to a few items from my also closed suitcase (including two books - one of which I found the bookcover for on the floor in her room and she told me the book itself was over at her boyfriend's place...), 3 CD's, some business papers and my plane ticket; fortunately, it was an e-ticket and was not a problem at the airport, but if it wasn't I could have had real trouble). She also made a short guest appearance topless at Mystery's seminar, so her presence was made known throughout the week.
I know I have left out a lot of details here, but I do want to say that it was great trip and it was a blast seeing all of you again.
JSP:
I'm a university student. I've recently gone through some major lifestyle changes, such as ending a bitter-sweet 3 year relationship and desisting from an even longer intensive abuse of alcohol. These and other things have drastically damaged my self esteem as one can well imagine, but I have always known that I have the ability to create my own reality. After spending many hours on the web I came across your message board about total belief. I realize that this is without a doubt the most crucial place for me to start my new life. I haven't purchased any books or videos yet, but how do you recommend I change these beliefs? It seems to be such an elusive concept and I just feel like I've been telling myself affirmations and not really buying them. I want something concrete to make a ritual of.
Cliff Responds:
For me, this has been an on-going process starting from my teens until now. I still don't feel I am 100% where I want to be, but many people I know think I have the biggest balls of anyone they know in terms of approaching hot women. I am pretty comfortable with doing that now but it took a lot of work, including various intense periods of affirmations, forcing myself to approach, going through a period where I read everything I could find on seduction, pick up and to some extent relationships and other mainstream writings, working on all aspects of self improvement (diet, exercise, calming myself down, working on my appearance in terms of clothes, hairstyle, body language, etc.), and forcing myself for all of the above when I feel lazy or unmotivated (which I still get in such moods).
But the place to start is your question, and I think about what would I do if I were starting over as the shy, quiet kid I found myself to be once I woke up to the need to meet women those many years ago? Well, I look at the incredible improvements that Papa and TD have undergone in just two years and I think that this is a good model to follow. First, they absorbed everything they could get their hands on (I don't know specifics about what TD owns or has read, but Papa had be known to have bought almost every seduction product out there). Second, they went out and approached constantly - not all of us will be able to take 4-6 hours a day to go out sarging, but if you go out there regularly, keep at it and try and adjust what you are doing as you see what works and what doesn't work, I think that over time this is the most effective way to improve your inner game. Some guys go out and just seem to get the knack quickly - I have seen guys turn themselves around dramatically in the space of one SS seminar, for
example. Now Ross has some great abilities to help guys work on their inner game, and while it seems his most effective work in this appears to be when you see him (either for private consultation, which I am not sure if he does or not anymore, or in one of his seminars) and that is probably impractical for a lot of guys. The news from Ross is that he will be coming out with a brand new product which he says will solve the inner game problem for guys. But I think that the one thing that will make the most difference is to go out there and approach a lot of women. The third thing to do is to go out and meet other guys who are successful at this and learn from them. Modelling successful guys is also a great thing to do.
Everyone is different - I probably know as much about this as most, but I find I often keep making the same errors when things don't work. But I am determined to keep working on it and can see improvements over time. There are guys out there who have read materials and also made big progress. One place I would strongly recommend is to go read the archives of my list that are posted on fastseduction.com/cliff - there's a lot of really great, great material there and it's free. It should take you quite awhile to get through all of that but I have no doubt you will find it highly worthwhile and you find some outstanding posts by many very skilled individuals. There's plenty of other stuff out there to read, but don't get bogged down and be an armchair seductionist, as they say. Go out and face your fear - over and over until it starts diminishing. The thing is, I have seen many guys who get lucky and start to practice what they learned (from any of the various teachers out there, including SS, DYD, Swinggcat, Re
al Social Dynamics, Be Relentless, etc.) and have some immediate successes which serve to quicken the process as success breeds success. Others, of course, struggle and they just have to work harder at it. So you should go and explore as you might find that you are one of the lucky ones who tries some things and it may work right away for you.
Hope this helps.
Michael (www.thedatingwizard.com):
POWER, THY NAME IS ATTRACTION
Do you want to know the best kept dirty little secret?
Attraction is nothing but an INVOLUNTARY emotional reaction to someone who we PERCEIVE to have great POWER.
That's it.
POWER defines everything. It defines who is right, who is wrong, who is desirable, and even WHAT is "right" and WHAT is "wrong".
This concept NEVER made COMPLETE sense to me till I finally saw the truth about women.
POWER is sexy.
It attracts.
Everyone.
All the "sexy" things are just forms of power. For example:
1. Physical looks- sign of vitality, health, survival, ability to bear children, etc.
2.Money - obvious form of power.
3. Status - positions in society - again obvious form of power through level of control or influence over others.
4. Attitude/Self-Esteem - indicates power and the ability to succeed in life; a guy who seems positive and confident
may also reflect a powerful position or that he has a lot going for him now or potentially in the future, etc.
5. Intelligence --- human ingenuity has been one of the keys to our survival as a species.
6. Having large circles of connections, etc...
And on and on ad infinitum...
But the bottom line is that TODAY, most men in our society have been STRIPPED of power, PRIMARILY BECAUSE PERCEPTION is power, and men have been
brainwashed to PERCEIVE that they are LESS valuable than they REALLY are to women.
Also, things like testosterone, aggression, and muscle are NOT needed from a practical standpoint by women thanks to technology. (Although machismo as an attitude can be sexy
if applied in the right way and not in the caveman way.)
Also, men are stripped of their power through brainwashing that women are all Disney-style innocents, hence the FLOOD of guys who are ass-kissers EVERYWHERE, guys who are willing to be IGNORANT "providers" to women, and who serve as psychological punching bags for women.
Also, a lot of guys today, they look at how their MOMS AND GRANDMOMS behave, because some of those women grew up BEFORE men became morons and spineless, i.e. before women could easily walk over your typical guy.
So men are unsuspecting of the TRUTH that is going on TODAY.
Sooooooo, when women get all this POWER, they cannot HELP but USE it.
ESPECIALLY since WOMEN are being BRAINWASHED into believing (or have brainwashed themselves in order to rationalize their behavior) that MOST men are "CONTROLLING",
INSECURE, DESPERATE, SEX-CRAZED WEIRDOS/PSYCHOS/LOSERS.
Once a woman believes this, it becomes relatively easy to not only USE men, but to also feel GOOD about it.
Women have every need provided for - there are TONS of ass-kissers to provide emotional support, so of course the value of emotional support (read: boyFRIEND) goes down to almost zero, and they are instead just looking to be with the most POWERFUL guy they believe they can meet - whatever that combination is - attitude, behavior, looks, money, dress, connections, status, etc.
Even things like a fun upbeat personality - like being a confident guy who teases women, it's still nothing more than a sign of confidence and power and vitality.
Because most men grow up seeing how difficult it is to meet a woman who is not spoiled by all this, it is men who cherish relationships more these days, since it is so RARE.
I think a great example is Brad Pitt.
This guy is supposed to be the ICON of female desire - status, insanely recognizable all over the world, good looks, wealthy, young, and who does he go out with?
And who does he marry?
Jennifer Anniston, who is good looking, sure, but not some supermodel, stripper, or uber-babe.
Everybody knows if all he wanted was the uberbabe he could have had just about any frikkin woman on the planet, this dude doesn't need any tactics.
And there is no way in hell that he did not know his power, I'm sure his fan mail has included bras and panties and nude photos, etc. of chicks.
He KNOWS how INSANE things are, and he is TOO SMART to marry the typical "woman" these days.
Sure, for SEX, he can get anyone, but for getting serious, or anything requiring things like loyalty, he tried to bet his money on smart bet.
The truth is that most men have been stripped of their power, and yet the WHOLE THING has been PURELY PSYCHOLOGICAL, done through BRAINWASHING.
All from IGNORANCE and ass-kissers (who are not to be blamed, for they don't know) who believe women are special and more moral than men.
Hence the floodgates to corruption have flowed in.
Lest anyone read this post and think that I have negative feelings towards women, they are absolutely wrong.
I simply believe power corrupts, no matter who has it. Be it a three year old child who is spoiled by parents who over indulge the child, or be it an adult who comes into almost superhuman power.
Power is sexy.
Might is right.
Just as Thrasymachus said long ago in The Republic.
The way I look at it, it's just a question of WHO has the might.
So if we as men believe what is going on right now in society is "wrong", then we need to increase our power, both as a gender, and as individuals within our relationships with women.
I am so absolutely convinced that all relationships are power based, that to enter any form of sexual relationship without being CLEARLY in a position of superior power is like turning on the timer to a ticking bomb.
Women do NOT want equals.
I repeat: Women do NOT want equals.
They want a guy who they feel is SUPERIOR to them.
If you want to be an equal, I guarantee you that at best you will become a FRIEND of a woman. A male girlfriend.
Also, one of the very reasons having sex with a woman is so much easier than keeping up a relationship is because it's easier to keep up the PERCEPTION of power for a shorter period than it is for a long one.
I think all pick up, and attraction itself, can be summed up in one sentence - conveying SUPERIOR POWER, and then letting the woman know that she has earned a chance to be with you.
Whether its called attraction, love, desire, loyalty, etc., it's all simply a human reaction to someone with POWER.
And today, women are not only KEEPING all their power, not only EXPANDING on it everyday, and not only MANIPULATING men with it, most men are GIVING IT all away, and
doing it with PLEASURE.
And I REPEAT: Women are NOT "evil"in one tiny iota for this - it's simply the result of a massive power shift where most men have become SITTING DUCKS.
Just as women trying to look their best, wearing make-up, doing their hair, smiling, acting SWEET and INNOCENT, and feminine, yet acting HARD TO GET, are all "manipulations"
designed so that men will give their entire hearts and devotion and power to a woman, so too is TAKING ADVANTAGE of the "sitting duck" situation designed so that men will give away all their power to women.
It's an unconscious process, by the way.
But it's ALL PART OF THE "GAME"in women's minds, and it's RATIONALIZED to women's minds.
Of COURSE women are going to take advantage of sitting ducks.
The same way YOU would take advantage of a guy giving out million dollar bills in exchange for a smile from you.
Could YOU resist?
And hey, it's not even illegal!!!!!!
And most men aren't protesting it, they are HAPPY to be ass kissers, in exchange for a smile, or whatever else.
This falls under what a friend of mine calls PEDDLING DECENCY.
Just as women are attracted to powerful men, one of the things that most MEN are attracted to is a beautiful woman who is also SWEET AND WHO SEEMS NICE.
Most men consider that feminine.
Now, do you REALLY think for a SECOND that women don't KNOW that????????????
Do you really think that women are stupid?
That they would not ACT sweet if acting sweet will make them far more attractive?
There are also guys who DON'T find sweet women attractive, and if a woman finds out, she will quickly do her part to be whatever works, as long as he is what SHE is looking for.
But PEDDLING DECENCY is a HUGE strategy for women that gives women POWER.
Men need to smell the roses and get a whiff of the truth.
And since POWER defines everything that is right and wrong, if you are a man and you believe in something, it's up to you to fight for your beliefs because that is the only way to make them "right" in society.
That is what women did in the last couple of generations, and it should be an inspiration for men to fight for THEIR RIGHTS.
Ultimately, every element/tactic that works for attraction is a tool that helps us convey POWER to a woman, whether it is REAL or PERCEIVED.
Every tiny action, tonality, movement, word, article of clothing, the image of the people you hang out with, is either INCREASING YOUR POWER, or DIMINISHING it.
As human beings, we can easily get addicted to this thing called power unless we are hyper aware of what is going on and that our brain is playing with us. In reality, the more power
you get, the more you hunger to INCREASE your power.
This boils down to SURVIVAL mechanisms inside our brain. Consider human progress, and how we constantly strive to go further, do more, (even as we often create more problems in this process).
We all want to benefit from those with power, and so we are naturally attracted to them. With men and women, it becomes a sexual thing. Within our gender, it becomes a "charismatic" thing.
When we GET the approval of someone we consider powerful, it makes us feel more SECURE. It makes us feel good. Unless you ALREADY FEEL TOTALLY HAPPY, then NOTHING influences you.
But how many people, whether men or women, are like that?
And since women tend to get FAR MORE approval from men than vice versa, women are only hungrier for MORE.
Ever wonder what this does to relationships? Or what it does to a guy who is EASY?
He gets eaten up for breakfast and is forgotten by LUNCH.
Ultimately, all this really has very little to do with sex. I really believe this.
If it was all about the physical need for sexual release, people would just be happy with one person, or marriage etc.
But since most people are not secure, they have low esteem, and feel the HUNGER for more security, for more validation, for more POWER.this causes an INFINITE array of issues that DISGUISE themselves as sexual issues.
So, for example, in a relationship or marriage, as soon as sex becomes easily available and reliable, and there is no need to worry about it anymore, the focus becomes on getting MORE
power and getting the approval of OTHERS.
They seek NOT new SEXUAL stimulus so much as FURTHER BONDS WITH POWERFUL PEOPLE to increase their own power.
That is why people look for "spice" which is so often linked to psychological issues - i.e any form of wanting to violate a "TABOO" is nothing more than enjoying the feeling of POWER over breaking a prohibition.
Without a prohibition, there is no joy to break it. BREAKING it is an assertion of POWER.
The desire to assert control over whatever the hell is being forbidden. Take away the taboo or the prohibition and goodbye spice!
For example, turn ON the lights in a "naughty"dance club and GOODBYE the to "kick" or the enjoyment of it all.
Ever wonder why clubs are "dark" atmosphere? Why they have names that evoke things that are "naughty" and taboo and forbidden?
Because it's a rush of POWER to feel like you are so powerful that you can BREAK 'the rules".
This is why kids who have no idea of the purpose of rules enjoy breaking them so much. All they know is that there is something forbidden, they don't know why, so they enjoy the rush and the POWER of being brats!!!!!
For most of us, sex is to a large degree all about ISSUES, relating back to INSECURITY, a need to feel ENDLESS approval from those with power.
Since women have been brainwashed to believe men are assholes and controlling, women are often "rebelling" i.e. acting out on the impulse to REVOLT at the perceived "control".
Again, it's the insecurity, the need for more POWER.
Ultimately, everyone is just seeking that nice warm fuzzy feeling called security that comes from having POWER.
For a woman, love/passion/lust are all INVOLUNTARY feelings that ERUPT in full force when she thinks about a man with the ultimate combo of POWER
Carlos Xuma Seduction Method (www.seductionmethod.com):
QUESTION:
A friend of mine printed a number of your newsletters that he received from you and gave them to me. He said I might learn something as he has. His success just rose up from nowhere, and he is banging hot women.
You said that any man in this world could have success with chicks, however, I haven’t had any success at all. It’s not that I haven’t tried, but I have personal challenges that I can't seem to cover up in any way. First, I’m not good looking and, to make matters worse, I’m very short. I even have to buy kids clothes for that matter.
You can see how much of a challenge I have in front of me. I am a bit confused though as to whether your audience is average guys who just don’t know the game, or can even very short men learn to be successful from your knowledge?
And why is it that women don’t date men who are shorter than them? Any reason for this?
Because I think short men have it the toughest, I'm having it the toughest. I would like to have a clear understanding of the problems short men have to overcome when trying to date women.
CARLOS ANSWERS:
Every single man out there has challenges to overcome. Some are greater than others. But men usually create most of their problems with women.
Let me explain…
There will always be challenges, and some guys will have more of them and some will have fewer than you. I'd be insulting your intelligence if I made any claims like, "Get my e-books and you'll be having sex with the hottest fashion models tonight!"
But you can always do better than you are. That is what I teach in my e-books and in this column to understand exactly how to achieve your dating goals and improve more realistically.
I will tell you this one fact and it is critical: How you look is less important than the way you make a woman feel.
Let me return to what I said before most guys create their own problems with women. You said it yourself: "Because I think short men have it the toughest, I'm having it the toughest."
What I hear from you is an assumed limitation (your height) and that you have already given up. You’re saying, in essence: "I know I’m short, and I believe this to hold me back, so please, someone give me a reason to keep trying."
There’s a wise saying: "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right."
Even if you are short, it's usually not your physical height that's holding you back; it's your mental height.
Consider this: Stephen Hawking got remarried, and the guy is completely immobile and withered in a wheelchair, unable to speak without the aid of a computer. If he can get a woman, do you think you can?
Now, let's just say for a minute that what you believe is correct, and that physical appearance is essential to women. What then? What would it mean if this 'fact' were established as true? Would you give up trying to get an attractive woman if you weren't a six-foot tall stud? Would you just sit in your house and cry in front of the television?
If the worst thing you suspect were true, what would you do then?
You'd have to do what millions of men have to do every day when they're faced with a challenge you figure out a way around it.
There is a woman for every man on this planet. You must let go of this limiting belief about who a woman will and will not date. To improve your self-respect and your self-confidence, you must have the fundamental belief that you are worthwhile. It all starts there.
There are no men who are condemned to failure with women, unless he chooses that fate. Create a life for yourself that you are happy with and that a woman would want to be part of. When you have that, she will believe it and want to join you.
Remember my fundamental rule: You will only attract the level of woman that your self-confidence will allow.
You assume that women don't date short men, but that's wrong. Have you seen any short guys that are married? How about short guys with girlfriends? Yes, absolutely. I see them everywhere I go. (Fact: Tom Cruise is only 5’ 7".)
Your assumption is incorrect. Women do date short men. Women date fat men. Women date all kinds of men. Not because they are short or fat or bald, but because they never approach women with the attitude of "I’m short, and I know you won’t want me."
The critical success factor is your attitude. Every single guy I know who has improved his game with women has shirked off that bitter, whining outlook that he can't get success because of this reason or that and he just does it anyway. Drop the self-pity routine and get busy.
You might not want to approach a six-foot-tall Amazon woman, but you could set your sights on a woman closer to your height. Use my strategies on ladies that are within a range you feel comfortable with, and then start to work up the ladder.
Don’t live your life in comparison with others, because I can always show you someone who has it better or worse than you. What’s important is what you do.
J. Zen Goodley:
If you want to be loved you must love. Everyone, not only the beautiful women.
Your focus should not be on yourself too much. There are always people worse off than you.
If I walk into a Hollywood event, party, etc. and there are celebrities there and models and I feel nervous I get the focus off myself. Here is how I find someone others might say are unattractive. For example, there was a guy in a wheelchair so I made it my mission to make him comfortable and to talk with him.
Then I owned the room after that. There is a spiritual dimension to life.
Do good things, love, etc. and you feel good. This increases your confidence and self esteem.
I'm not saying you are, but you don't want to be a taker. Think how you probably don't think much of a woman who is into someone just for his money.
You don't respect that so think of a guy who treats everyone like shit except hot women.
Well maybe someone like that is a piece of s_ _ _ .
Next, believe the people you put on a pedestal do not believe that they aren't fucked up in one way or another. If you don't realize it, you just don't know them well enough yet.
We all have our fears, insecurities, problems, etc. Plato said "Know thyself."
Aristotle: "An unexamined life is not worth living."
Live mindfully and acquire the Zen Buddha mind and flourish beyond your imagination now and always.
Just remember this when you go into a place and you feel inferior to everyone. Your focus is on you. Go in and say what can I give not what can I get. i.e. go into a place with all so called beautiful people, find the least beautiful and make it your mission to make their life better. Find the biggest loser and be nice to that person.
There are people all over the world starving. I've seen people with no legs begging for money. Think about all the millions and millions of people that have it much worse than you.
Let me take the football coach approach with you here.
Damn get off your ass and stop feeling sorry. How dare you? You say all these people are better than me. Think it from this perspective: why do you have all your body parts, why can you walk, why aren't you mentally incapacitated? What if you were a very unattractive midget, at 4 feet tall with one leg who stuttered? If you were him, and then changed places with you, you would run through the streets in ecstasy and joy thinking you were the happiest person in the world. It's all perspective.
There are thousands of books in the bookstore. Plant your ass in a bookstore every free moment until you have read hundreds of books and feel like a million dollars.
A women is not going to bring you happiness. I've been with 10's - it will be cool for awhile and then it wears off, and you're left with boring unhappy you.
Wake up to all you PUA and SS guys. The # 1 thing is to get your act together.
Stop being selfish. The law of paradox: you are chasing women so much and you never get them. Right, of course. Catch yourself first. A Zen Goodley Koan.
Some will not understand what I'm saying at this point in their lives. The more experienced guys will.
Mark B.:
A classic success story
On Wednesday April 21, I met a woman while at a downtown bookstore and brought her home for the night. Here is what happened.
It’s about 7:00 pm. My Wednesday downtown PARS program session is cancelled. I decided to use the time to catch up on my reading. I head off to a large bookstore near the club district where you can sit down and read for hours without interruption. I walk up to the 3rd floor of the book store to a seating area. Near the fire place section I see an HB9 sitting down. She was black but with classic full lips, high cheekbones and a Viveca A. Fox type demeanor while being about 5’8" about 135 lbs with long legs and a full butt but medium breasts. I look at her. She sees me. We make and hold eye contact. I sit down next to her and say "interesting book?" She says it’s a book of the signs of the Zodiac. She then asks for my birthday and turns the page to my sign. I get to the Leo love section. We discuss our signs. I then ask her "have you ever been in love" and later "have you ever been in lustful passion?" She laughs but says no to the latter but yes to the former. We aimlessly talk for a bit. She tells me she is
23, works for some company, that she is an aspiring musician, writer and businesswoman. After a few rounds of this she asks what I am doing for the rest of the night. I suggest coffee. She says she would prefer a drink instead. So we head to a bar nearby and have wine and gin. We talk until about 11:00. Having recently read "The 48 Laws of Power" I remembered two of the laws those being the one on indifference and the one on bold action. So I ask her if she is a good kisser. She says it’s too early for me to find out. I let it go and say nothing. 11:30 comes and I suggest that I live only 20 minutes of foot and that she could walk home with me and then I could take her home to her place after. She agrees and we walk off to my place. We enter and head to my bedroom. We get on the computer and play Solitaire and Freecell. I then tell her "you know I would like to lick your pussy and fuck your brains out". She laughs and says the time is not yet right for that. We engage in more meaningless chatter. By now it's
2:30 am. I suggest she stays the night and that we sleep together and that I will take her home in the morning. She agrees. We head to bed and I seal the deal. In the morning we woke up and I drove her home. Before she got out of the car we exchanged numbers and before she headed out she says "hey, thanks for not being a jerk". You're welcome....
Other than the fact that we were both obviously attracted to each other physically, I think what made this successful is that I listened to her without interruption. I did not try to counter her objections. Just let her express herself. I did not try to impose anything on her. Just waiting for the right time to strike. I also told her openly what I wanted. She went along. Other than on vacation or meeting a woman inside of a bar/nightclub environment and bringing her home the same day this sort of thing has never happened to me. Indeed this has opened up a whole new world of possibility.
PROMOS & REVIEWS SECTION (there are NO paid ads in this list and never have been. The "commercial" section is distinguished by the "--------------" separators):
DAVID NEWS:
We now have a new writer working on the book who is enthusiastically absorbing all of David's ideas and is working feverishly to get this show on the road. David has been doing a lot more personal consultations lately and will hopefully have his newsletter out shortly. We still need questions by email and it would be appreciated if you could ask David about any related topic that could be of interest (how to find, meet, attract, close and keep women, etc.).
Please send them to him at david@be-relentless.com. I would recommend you copy me as well (cliff@cliffslist.com) so I will make sure they get answered.
All subscribers of these emails will be given a free subscription and, as here, you can unsubscribe at any time. I know that you will find his comments and advice to be pretty unique and very useful. We are also making progress on the long awaited book which we hope will be ready relatively soon now.
The tapes of the David Seminar are now available and are being shipped upon receipt of your order, but please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. You can visit the website at www.be-relentless.com and orders should be made through paypal (go to www.paypal.com and send money to sales@be-relentless.com) if you need some other way to make payment, inquire at info@be-relentless.com. This product comes on two DVD discs for a total of approximately 6 1/2 hours of playing time. The price is $230 USD + $20 USD for the DVD which covers shipping and handling anywhere in the world. Inquire about shipping by overnight courier. These tapes are now available in a sound only version also.
Private in person or telephone consultations with David are available. David is particularly intuitive with regard to your specific individual problems with certain women. You can get on the phone, answer his questions on the situation, and he will give you very insightful advice on how to succeed in your particular mission.
PLEASE NOTE: This David is not to be confused with David DeAngelo of www.doubleyourdating.com (who has posted some great stuff here under the name "Sisonpyh"), or David Shade (of www.davidshade.com).
Blake Richards has put out a new ebook that looks very interesting. Check it out here: www.social-mastery.com/Game.html
New Dating/Seduction Seminars & Workshop in Montreal by DOC!
Doc, who many of you know from his all too rare but outstanding posts on this list, on Mystery's Lounge, and the Montreal Lair, is bringing his seminars and speed dating events to Montreal. Previously they were mainly held in Toronto as part of the Learning Annex, Doc is now setting it up here and plans to hold events on a monthly basis.
The website (which should be active by May 1) is www.setnalife.com. The first seminars should be held the weekend of May 15th in Montreal. Registrations available starting May 1rst on the website. The events are Dating Secrets for Women, a 3 Hour seminar (cost $50) and Dating Secrets for Guys; a Guide to The Art of Dating (also 3 hours and $50). There will also be a speed dating event in the evening for $50. You can contact Doc by email at seduction.school@sympatico.ca
In addition, Doc plans various self improvement programs, including getting over shyness, couples issues, an entire range. There will be seminars every Thursday night and workshops on weekends. There will also be a Weekend Make Over program, where they take you shopping for clothes, hair, etc. and redo your look and presentation.
This is a great opportunity to learn from a real master.
Real Social Dynamics WORKSHOPS:
I highly recommend that you check these guys out. Anyone interested in attending, email Papa at papa@realsocialdynamics.com with the subject "WORKSHOP" and mention that you heard about it from Cliff's List. Also note: RSD will consider working out payment plans to make their workshop affordable - mention this to them.
Real Social Dynamics (www.realsocialdynamics.com/ ):
Learn what works in seminar, and then jump directly into the field and watch the instructors demonstrate and teach it live. Stop feeling the fear of not knowing what to do ...
Classroom Seminars ($200 deposit required for signup)
Saturday/Sunday 11:00am - 9:00pm
Los Angeles Seminar - $300 - May 29-30, 2004
Amsterdam Seminar - $300 - Note - Date will be changed to sometime in August
Montreal Seminar - $300 - July 10-11, 2004
London Seminar - $300 - August 21-22, 2004
In-Field Workshops ($200 deposit required for signup)
Friday/Saturday/Sunday 9:00pm - 2:30am
Los Angeles Workshop - $600 - May 28-30, 2004
Amsterdam Workshop - $600 - July 2-4, 2004
Montreal Workshop - $600 - July 9-11, 2004
London Workshop - $600 - August 20-22, 2004
Individualized Boot-Camps ($200 deposit required for signup)
Friday/Saturday/Sunday 1:00pm - 2:30am
· Individualized Boot-Camp -$1500 - Schedule Date/Location with Papa
Go to www.realsocialdynamics.com/ to signup for the next events on their schedule as they are launching a new program.
Mystery Method Workshops:
www.Mysterymethod.com is now activated again and Mystery is now giving seminars and workshops.
Regular Seminars:
May 22-23, 2004 Hawaii $500 ($400 for past students)
June 26-27, 2004 Chicago $750 ($650 for past students)
Mystery also offers In-Field Workshops, which are limited to only four students, and One on One In-Field Mentoring. If you are interested in either of these programs, please contact his business partner Herbal at herbal@mysterymethod.com.
Swinggcat has published a new ebook which you can check out at his website at www.realworldseduction.com. Those of you who remember his outstanding posts here will be anxious to get this as soon as possible. Highly recommended.
Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction Seminars (www.speedseduction.net/)
Advanced Speed Seduction® Seminars
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
New York, NY May 7, 8, 9
London, England September 3, 4, 5
Speed Life Seminars
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
Cancun, Mexico November 7 thru 13
Your Mind in Business
Schedule 2004
Location Dates
Dallas, TX June 21-25
Major Mark (www.trucor.com) has announced his schedule for 2004:
*Marknosis And Magick In Miami-- May 7-9
At the heart of every effective Change technology -- like organized religion, psychology and magick -- we find a common set of states and effects that allow you to truly experience and subsequently Believe. Join us in South Beach as we explore the hypnotic elements of Ritual and Magick. Sun, surf, sultry nights and amazing sights as we create our own body of powerful personal rituals for self-exploration, self-development, and the quest for Power and Influence in this world as well! Come for the toolbox of techniques that maximize influence within ritual behaviors, or just come to step through the looking-glass and begin living
*Beyond Seduction In Montreal -- July 16-18
Cliff's Comment: MONTREAL!!!!
*Introduction To Hypnosis -- The New Curriculum -- Las Vegas September 20-24
This year we were asked by a national hypnosis group to develop a New Curriculum for the training of hypnotists -- one which would reflect the absolute best of what has always worked while incorporating our own cutting-edge discoveries. We wanted a curriculum that was so comprehensive in explication and exercise that the graduates could walk into an internship anywhere in the world, secure that they were the best-trained hypnotists in the place. The result is being rolled out over five days in Las Vegas. This is your chance to immerse yourself in the most comprehensive approach to powerful, positive, permanent change ever presented!
Send mail to Cassi@trucor.com with questions or comments about these seminars.
Call to register: 419 882-8543 or go to www.trucor.com
Double Your Dating LIVE! NEW Seminar! We will be reviewing all of the new DYD products here soon, including the monthly interview series in which David DeAngelo interviews "Dating Gurus" such as Ben (), David X, and many others.
2004 Tentative Seminar Schedule:
London, England, July.
New York September.
Las Vegas beginning of December.
You can order all your DYD products and register for seminars through this link: www.doubleyourdating.com/cl
Riker's Seduction Log - Live Seminar
If you always wanted to hear more field reports, with full details, and even some recordings, then this seminar is for you. Dave Riker (Ross's co-trainer for those of you who don't know him) spends about 3 hours each evening going through his personal Logs and notes and provides full reports on Sarges, many from start to close (finish). And that's a full "close" by the way, not just an email address or phone number!
The seminar is held in conjunction with Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction Seminars. Ross's seminar is during the day (and Riker presents at that too) and then Riker does his seminar in the evening. And even if you do not attend Ross's seminar you can still attend Riker's.
For full details see the web page at: http://www.daveriker.com/logseminar/track/cl.htm (site is either inactive or no longer relevant)
Be sure to check out his "Reviews" page on his site. Many guys that have been in the game for a while, and attended a LOT of seminars, were just blown away by Riker's Log seminar.
Introducing 1 on 1 Badboy workshops:
Badboy is a Croatian PUA from Zagreb who has spent almost 4 years in the game. He is also a respected poster in Mystery's lounge.
To see some of his stuff, search for posts by "croBadboy" on mASF or read one of the recent issues of Cliff's list.
Workshops are 1 on 1 for 3 days.
Each day consists of a 4-hour seminar and 5 hours of active in-field work. Each night you will make 20-30 approaches with your teacher to get field experience. 1 on 1 training makes it possible to answer any questions you might have and cover the most important aspects of the game in detail. Teachings are tailored to your level in the game.
The basic structure of the workshop is:
Day 1:
Social intelligence/emotional intelligence
How to dress, peacocking vs. dressing style
Alpha-male bodylanguage secrets
Attitude (inner-game) and getting a good seductive voice
Difference between emotional and party type girls
Social dynamics in clubs (2sets/3sets/lonewolves), know your city
Openers (sets with males vs. only-girl sets)
Day 2:
Difference between PUing alone and with a wing
Different tools for getting attraction
Power of contrast (bad boy & nice guy in one)
Stealing their frames
Passing sh*t tests
Push-pull
Isolation tactics(2steps)
Day 3:
AMOG tactics (the AMOG handshake, group set AMOG destroyers)
Boyfriend destroyers
Passing LMR
Secrets of good s*ex
How to manage a good relationship
More bodylanguage secrets
How to turn Coffee dates into f*ck-fest in just 1 hour
How to turn a 0$ date into a time she will never forget
Difference between PUing in different places (small towns, big cities, colleges and the difference between certain clubs and the girls who go there)
Badboy says he can write a pages of what he does with guys because it's not just PU. He opens their EYES to LIFE, to understand how to live successfully.
For more info, email Badboy at badboy@playboylifestyle.net. See Badboy's new website: www.playboylifestyle.net
Thundercat's Seduction Lair
Get the latest News, Rumors, Tips, Tricks, & Analysis on the Pick-Up and Seduction community! The site is updated daily with lots of free and exclusive content.
Also a good way to keep up with things without having to navigate mASF. Drop By TSL today! www.thundercatseductionlair.com
The Art of Approaching: Learn to meet ANY woman, ANY time, ANY where. The most difficult hurdle for most men to overcome is that of the initial Approach. This comprehensive eBook gives you over 35 unique Openers, as well as a step-by-step roadmap to help overcome your fear of approaching forever!
www.thundercatseductionlair.com/ebook.htm
Impact Interaction (www.impactinteraction.com) @ London
Angel Caido, Ryobi and Lockstock have been running Workshops and Seminars in London since the beginning of the year. The workshops are small in size (trainer : student ratio of 2:1 as max), so students get personal attention on sticking points.
The workshops include:
- Basejump: For approach newbies who need to get internal game and basic attraction skills in gear
- Field Interaction: To perfect your bar/ club and street performance
- Solid Game: Everything good except lots of flakes? Few end results? End to end game sticking points covered…
For more information go to www.impactinteraction.com or contact them @ contact@impactinteraction.com.
Have you ever asked yourself...
* What does it take to make a woman feel totally comfortable making out with me - even if she barely knows me?
* How do I get women to WANT to sleep with me? After all, what good are all those "bedroom techniques" I learned if I don't even know how to get her back to my bedroom in the first place?
* Why do women melt around some guys, but they are totally unresponsive to me? What do they have that I don't?
Wouldn't it be nice if you knew a guaranteed way to "get physical" with any woman you go out with? Have you ever been on a date with a woman, and wondered *how* you can start "making out" with her? (by making out, I mean kissing, hugging, holding hands, etc.)
Jason King has just released a not new report that will teach you everything you need to know about getting *close* to a woman on a date.
Jason is an absolute master at making out with a woman on the first date. Whenever he goes out with a woman, he seems to put them under some kind of "love spell", and they want to make out with him more and more as the date progresses. By the end of the date, the women usually invent all kinds of excuses to invite him back to their place.
There is NO other person out there who is teaching these skills. If you've ever wanted to learn how to make out with a woman on the FIRST date... not weeks or months later... you MUST check out his site.
Maximillian Hell:
I have a PU journal up on livejournal. Right now it's mostly just a record of my sarges--but comments are welcome.
www.livejournal.com/users/maximillianhell
Visit this site:
http://www.sexualrapportmodeling.com/jump.php?a=2350 (site is either inactive or no longer relevant)
Daniel:
If you are looking for a wing and you are a guy from Romania, you can check on our forums at www.seductierapida.ro/forum and you might find one.
Carlos Xuma:
Time is running short for all of us, no matter how young or old you are. Don't waste precious years learning by trial and error (and most likely not at all). Get the information on how to improve your dating life TODAY. Make the changes you need to make to get the love, s*ex, and relationships that you want and DESERVE to have. Download THE DATING BLACK BOOK right now at: www.datingdynamics.com/ebookstore.htm
Ben () (@.com ):
Ben has a system and set of Tarot Cards that he his going to be launching soon. Find out more at his website.
P.S. Try magic words 'ben' 'rap' and 'nlp'.
A few sites to check out:
Mike Pilinski is the author of "Without Embarrassment: The Social Coward's Totally Fearless Seduction System"... a unique method of meeting girls that will have you making up for wasted time spent living in shy-guy hell from the very first moment you test it out. Check it Out Here => www.highstatusmale.com/.
David Wygant (www.whatsyourexcuse.com & www.mydatingagent.com).
Swinggcat: www.realworldseduction.com
Erick Kand has a new website that showcases Hypnosis Stage Shows for fun and entertainment: www.HypnosisEvents.com
The Foundations of Seduction
Hi, you know something? When it comes to seductionhey, when it comes to ANYTHING--how you feel has a huge impact on the results you get. But the way you feel doesn’t have to be determined by your surroundings, your expectations, others’ behavior, or the tides and stars. You can guide your own feelings. By doing so, you can adjust and enhance your results. You can replace frustration with the satisfaction of tangy, blood-red, salty-sweet resolve. When you can change the way you feel, you can change what you experience… and what you encounter… and then the world stands revealed as something you yourself partially create. Sometimes, to begin claiming the victories you deserve, all you need is a simple little tool: a way of channeling your own emotions. A way of tapping your inner fire. A way of taking that inner fire, and letting it melt your external obstacles. A way of changing all that you feel, about all that you experience. Of course, you may not need or want such a tool. For some, the ability to guide and
drive one’s own emotional experience is pretty basic stuff. Some people shrug off rejection, feel wonderful almost all the time, and easily attain their goals. If that’s true for you, and you don’t think you can add to your abilitywell, you may be right. In that case, my new CD may not be for you. On the other hand, should you want a tool meant to ease the transition to seductive success… to productive success… to any kind of success, maybe this new CD can be of use to you. It’s called "Foundations of Seduction". You can get it for $29.97 plus $5 Priority Mail s/h, by going here: www.sexualkey.com/ Just enter "$34.97" into the FlexPay box and then email me at info@sexualkey.com with your shipping address and a note that you’ve ordered "Foundations of Seduction". If you’re outside the U.S., please add an additional $5 for shipping. Have fun! JD www.sexualkey.com/
LOUIS AND COPELAND'S "FREEDOM WITH WOMEN" SEMINAR DATES
Freedom with Women seminar in NYC May 14-16
To find out more about "Freedom with Women", contact
davidc@howtosucceedwithwomen.com
Advanced Macking:
In case you want a step by step guide on how to get into one-night stands, check out Anthony Berger's Advanced Macking manual. What makes it unique is that it is engineered towards making it happen the same night you meet them. To learn how to persuade women back to your pad, check out his site: www.advancedmacking.com/Discount.htm
Michael:
If you want to improve not only your game, but also your understanding of women on a deeper level, so that you can have more successful relationships, you've got to come out to The Dating Wizard Seminar in downtown Toronto, Saturday May 15th-Sunday May16th. It will be two FULL days of non-stop IMMERSION giving you a whopping,eye-opening insight into how to be successful with women on a whole new level.
Special guests TBA.
To learn more about this special seminar, go to:
And follow the "Seminars" link.
And if you want to focus on sharpening your pick up skills, you can now arrange one-on-one workshops with me where I'll work exclusively with you to improve your skills. This workshop will take you out to malls, clubs, and the street to do all forms of pickup. For more info go to thedatingwizard.com/workshops.htm .
And if you haven't downloaded my eBook, "The Dating Wizard: Secrets to Success with Women", then that's the place to get started. It's about being THE MAN at all times, and keeping that frame of mind always. I've also included the concepts and info that I found to be most important regarding LTR relationships.
Download it now at:
And follow the link to "About The Dating Wizard"
FREE HYPNOSIS MINI-TUTORIAL
The UltimateSeduction Yahoo group, at groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/ is sponsoring a free one-month mini-tutorial on Conversational Hypnosis. This tutorial, presented by the hypnotist Archangel, is sectioned off into five parts:
1. Trance Words
2. Rapport
3. Persuasion Anchoring
4. Pacing, &
5. Leading
Although less than halfway through, members are reporting some highly entertaining, and some startling, success stories. The UltimateSeduction group has the advantage of having more than a few women on-list, enabling members to get some very pointed straight talk on their techniques. There is nothing to memorize - only a handful of very simple, and very effective, techniques. The group is gaining about 200 new members a week and is lightly moderated.
Anyone may join the tutorial at: groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/
- Login or register to post comments
- Trackback URL
