One of the best I ever had.
Here's a thought that has come into my mind that I wanted to throw out to those reading this. What do you think of the idea of holding a seminar here in Montreal next summer based on this email list? My thoughts are that an array of the guys who have great ideas that you have read about here would each get up and talk for 1-3 hours and give some of their best seduction tips. How it would be done I am not sure -- my first thought is to follow the intent of these emails and do it purely for fun and to help out those who appreciate such help; the cost of attending would be based on covering the expenses and not on making money. Imagine a seminar where Ross, Mystery, GameMaster, Major Mark, Steve Piccus, Mark B., Sisonpyh, Rick, Craig, Dr. Dennis Neder, Arte from New Sex, Oscar Bruce, Maniac High, David, NightLight9, Peta, Jobet, David Shade, Nathan, Dan Scorpio, and numerous others who's names escape me for the moment (but who, you may be surprised to know, are all currently subscribers to these emails) are not
only in attendance to share their ideas and experience with you, but who are there just for fun. The other thing which I try to do here which I would hope will be reflected there would be that we should keep away from personalities -- no one learns anything from someone attacking someone else; let's keep this on a real practical, down to earth level where we focus on where we can benefit from someone else. Obviously, not everyone is going to be able to make it but the idea has hit me and has been growing stronger, getting brighter and more intoxicating as the days go by... Comments????
A big thank you to Oscar Bruce for sending out a plug for these emails to his email list. I have probably gotten a good 30-40 new subscribers due to that and, if you are one of these, let me also hereby welcome you to this list. Oscar has been a subscriber here for a couple of years, and some time ago sent in a really excellent contribution (he actually may have done more than one, I just remember one in particular). If anyone wants to see it, just ask for me to send you the archives (all the old posts) and then you'll just have to search through the files looking for "Oscar"). Oscar sells some interesting books he's written based on real life communication, and you can find out about his WINNING WORDS WINNING WAYS by visiting his website at www.fearlesspublications.com
Josh: Mystery's Lounge is once again OPEN. It is staying at MSN Communities due to the improvements made there over the past year. Email kelley2255@yahoo.com if you have any problems logging in (forgot password, need another invite, etc.).
If you want access to the Lounge, send an email to the address above. We accept only DISCRETE members (we post pix of trophies and no-gos, along with other personal info), and it would be beneficial to attach a self pic and have someone vouch for you for access.
A guru master: This is an anonymous guru master interacting with NamelessGuy on Mindlist ( groups.yahoo.com/group/mindlist/ ). NamelessGuy was asking a guru master about how he handles women with BPD (which stands for Borderline Personality Disorder, or flaky, head-gaming, immature girls that happen to be HOT, and know it). They were mostly discussing a technique called Prescribing The Symptom, which was one of Milton Erickson's favorite patterns. the guru master guy also suggests how to handle the 'ol 'You're not my type' Objection, and other pattern interrupts.
NamelessGuy wrote: > > she will take you on a wild ride of great sex and > > emotional highs and lows, and that can be a deadly > > combination!! > > She tried - I was raised Italian-American, with lots > of telling and fighting and hugging and food and guilt and loving. I'm > well-prepared.
Hehe, you Italians are really into drama ) > We were never boyfriend/girlfriend. One night, when > we were together at a bar, > she started flirting outrageously with an AFC
to her > right. I went into my > entertaining New Yorker mode and had about a dozen > people to my left as my > audience, laughing their asses off. She then tried > to talk to some of the people > in my audience (to steal them away?), but I kept my > foot on the gas. I wanted to > show her that I could get along without her. She had > an incredible temper > tantrum later that night - because her ploy didn't > succeed and I acted like I > didn't care what she did. I think she took me > for an AFC ("nice guy"), and > found that she mis-read me like a lot of other women > have... > > Was I prescribing the symptom here, great guru master?
No. But I love how you showed her that you can generate an audience too, with your SOCIAL skills, not your TITS! You really have to work constantly at keeping these perfect 10 women in line, which is why I choose not to deal with them. Too high maintenance for me!
Let me explain Prescribing the Symptom in depth here by offering you my two favorite examples. It is probably the MOST powerful thing I've learned in 10 years of NLP
1- My first official client, came to me because he was, of all things, addicted to porn and masturbation. So, to prescribe the symptom, I told him to masturbate MORE! I explained (rationalized) that before we treat his addiction, that he needed to 'get it out of his system, for good'. Since he masturbated 10-15 times per day, I told him to double it. I said do it 30-40 times a day, and call me in a week. Then, I assured him, he will be ready to give it up for good.
He calls me the next day to say that he can't even get it up! He went from sexual compulsion to impotence OVERNIGHT. This is the power of prescribing the symptom. So I told him to come in, and I put him in a trance and told him that he will remain impotent until he works it out with his wife, and I told him exactly how he should do that. Two weeks later, they were to be re-married.
2- Milton Erickson talks about a 24 year-old man who couldn't get into the Army because he wet the bed every night between 4 and 5 am. Milton simply had him set the alarm clock for 3 am, stand in his own bed, and PEE DELIBERATELY all over his clean bed for a week. The problem disappeared completely.
Now, I don't know why it works but it almost always does. With my client, he said it felt like homework and took away the naughty fun. With Milton's client, it seems that he learned that he had control. > Weeks later she called me begging to help her fix > her messed up life. She claims > that she didn't know why she did what she did that > night.
Yeah, you will get them urging you to save them from themselves, so DON'T. Tell her that you have enough problems already, and that you charge 250 bucks an hour for therapy. I'm serious. These women are looking for the opportunity to control you, and one way is to get you to feel sorry for them. Keep in mind that nobody wants to fuck their therapist or father. She wants to fuck someone who is in control, but not controlling. When you say no to helping her, she will try to make you look like an asshole, so hold your ground. No means NO! (ain't it weird how we need to treat 'em like CHILDREN??) > I have no faith that she would be loyal to anyone, > but she appears to depend > upon my friendship.
Totally. Expect alot of 'but I wasn't myself' bullshit, excuses, and no personal responsibility. Bandler talks about the fact that people are dissociated from their own internal processes. For alot of people, what goes on in their head is not looked upon as something they have control over. He says that whenever he teaches the pattern for Belief Change, invariably he gets people that say,'You mean you can just CHANGE a belief?!?' That's because for these people, in their model of the world, they have BELIEFS as being part of the environment. People need to realize that in order to have a belief, it's something that they must continue to DO. > > Try to figure out what are the cues in her environment > > that trigger her BPD (Bi-Polar Disorder) (or what I call Stupidity). This > > could be challenging, but if you know what the > > trigger(s) is, and the trigger for getting her back, > > it will definitely help! > > The trigger to getting her back is for me to act > paternal. I haven't figured out > what trigger
s her stupidity. Actually, I call her an > asshole, because bitch can > sound like a back-door compliment to a BPD.
Ok, acting paternal may snap her out of it, but find a better way. Parents aren't a turn on. Nobody wants to fuck their mom and dad, no matter what Freud says!
Yeah, she prides herself on being a bitch, so try calling her an ignorant (insert swear-word here!), I like that one, especially when delivered in a calm, matter-of-fact way, with a little smirk on your face. If you never lose your cool around her, it will really puzzle her because she is used to guys getting all emotional on her, and it's one of the many ways she can measure her worth. The more you freak out, the more she'll look back on it later and think,'I really had him by the balls hahahaha!' Keep your cool at all times, and try acting indifferent. That'll fry her circuits. You have to always be one step ahead of these cunts. > > YOU'Excuse me, you seem upset.' > > HER'Goddamn right!' > > YOU'Good. Double that feeling! And double it again! > > AH cmon! You can do better than that!! What the fuck, > > man?! Lets go!' > > HER'You're crazy!' > > YOU'You have NO IDEA, you bitch!' > > HER(Feeling confused, a little hurt, she will now be > > focused on calming YOU DOWN!) > > Wow... I like that, especially sin
ce it's similar to > what I've been considering > doing, which was encouraging her when she acts like > an asshole.
YES!!! THAT is prescribing the symptom. Try this, I learned it from Bandler (do it in a very calm, like you don't give a shit, way)
You Excuse me. You seem upset.. Her Goddamn right! You Could you double that feeling and double it again, make the pictures in your mind bigger, make 'em brighter, now excuse me (as you say excuse me, grab that picture with your hands, look at it, and tear it shhhhhhht! and say 'Didn't like that picture, HERE, try this one...CALM!' (when you say CALM, go into a state of total calm and bliss, and put your hand right near her chest). This pattern is an incredible mind fuck. > Once when we were late driving to a party, as I > started getting upset in the car > she wanted to calm me down, and seemed to ENJOY > calming me down. Also, she has a > favorite cousin that's an asshole, but she claims > "I'm the only one that can > calm him down", and she seems to enjoy that - it > makes her feel wanted.
The problem with this is you need to go into stress to get her to respond to you. And that sucks! Does fuck & chuck mean anything to you? ) I would meta-comment on this tendency of hers, which, in NLP language, means to call her on it. Make fun of it, tease her about it by pretending to go into a rage and asking her if it makes her feel wanted. Prescribe the symptom. > We seem to be past episodes of "stupidity". Now, > while she's seeking my approval > in things, she also claims that, as we've gotten > closer, that I deserve better > than her. Self-esteem.
'You deserve better than me' (because I'm stupid and there's nothing I can do about it!) This is a sign, she's trying to tell you that 'you're not my type'. And this is where most guys will crash and burn. But not you!! See this as a test, and once you pass it, you're gonna get your share, and then some! Try this wickedly evil pattern, preferably on the phone, because it's kind of long to memorize, and you need to nail her right between the ideas right away
YOU I'm definitely convinced that I'm not your type. You know how I know? HER How? YOU It's because your TYPE OF GUY can only fit inside of what you already know. See, when someone dates someone who is their type, the kind of person that society, and your friends, and your parents would approve of, you will never experience TRUE passion. That's because you'll never be able to experience the kind of mystery and wonder that comes from dating the kind of guy that you're not used to dating. Because when you date someone who isn't your type, THAT'S when you will be carried beyond what you're used to experiencing, and then and ONLY THEN will you experience TRUE PASSION. But as I see it, you probably wouldn't be interested in being swept off your feet by a guy who can touch you...so deeply...and carry you way beyond passion, and show you things in your heart that you didn't even know were there'.
This pattern is a real mind fuck, and feel free to personalize it in your own words. > One thing that's got her completely fucked up is her > belief that she's a bad > person. She's used and abused guys in the past, and > while part of her enjoys it, > she admits to a terrible crushing guilt that pushes > her to the edge.
Poor baby : ) Stop taking her problems so seriously! Let her know that you think she's an idiot when she talks like this. Tease her, make fun of her. She has no sense of personal responsibility! JEEEEZ! OHHHH, the guilt! : ) > What are a BPD's core beliefs, and what's the best > way to address them?
The best way to address them is to make fun of them, with a smile and a twinkle in your eye. Provocative therapy is gonna be a real awakening for you. You're gonna thank me for this one! > How can > I anchor myself to her in a positive way so that > she'll continue to trust me?
Tell her not to trust you, because you can't be trusted. Of course, she'll either disagree and trust you completely, or, she'll agree with you and TRUST that you can't be trusted! Its called a double-bind in NLP . > Any comments or direction would be greatly > appreciated.
hehe, I love this shit!
Sisonpyh: 1. To Billy I.: You're welcome.
2. To NightLight9: You are a stud. I don't know who the hell you are, but everyone needs to read the things you've written in the last post a few extra times. You're a great communicator. You said "Looks matter except when you make them not." I wish I would have said that. Perfect. Do me a favor and come to my site at doubleyourdating.com and email me... I'd love to talk to you more.
3. To Tristan: You're a stud, too. Love it. Thanks for your clear ideas... I'd love to chat with you, too.
4. On the drama: If you pay careful attention, and you go back and read all of my contributions, you'll find that I'm not the one starting the DRAMA part of the conversations (hint). This is important, so keep it in mind into the future...
5. On the idea that my techniques work only with 'club chicks' and women with low self esteem: Not even close to accurate. Maybe 2 out of 10 women that I go out with are from a 'club' type setting. And the women I date are often the kind that have such high self esteem that even I'm a little intimidated.
My concepts work because they were developed by studying guys who kicked ass, then testing and refining what I learned... not by speculation. If you are confused or would like a more objective opinion, you owe it to yourself to try this simple test
Find ten men who 1) Are naturally good at seducing women, and 2) Aren't familiar with the formalized ideas and concepts that are discussed on this list.
Have them read my materials (my original post should do the trick) and then have them read any other system of picking up women... Here's what you'll find Most or all of the natural pick up artists will tell you that my ideas are on target , realistic, and that I'm more accurate and "real world" than any of the other systems, methods, or whatever else you show them. Before I published my book online, I had several guys who were 'naturals' read through all the materials and help me refine them. Is my stuff perfect? Nope. Does it work for all guys in all situations? Nope. Am I Jesus and can help the dead? Nope. Do I honestly believe that it's the best single collection of ideas and techniques for the money to help a regular guy be more successful with women? Yes, without question. Go try what I said... show my original post to some killer pick up artists, then show them some other stuff. Find out for yourself.
Thanks for all the great stuff, lately guys... what a great time to be alive!
Poetdude (review of Konnextions tapes; see www.ken-x.com): Pretty simple stuff, man. For a beginner, tremendously useful. I like the guy's really simple, straightforward attitude of approaching in a non-intimidating manner with no expectations. In fact, I just used it on a girl at a copy shop where I was picking up some stuff (total interaction 90 seconds, with some jokes and wisecracks) which resulted in a date that ended at 8.30 am this morning. So it expanded my range a little bit, especially with the first tape, which has this basic framework: 1) non-intimidating, happy, maybe offbeat approach ("What's that you're drinking?" "Chardonnay" "Oh, I happen to go great with Chardonnay"); 2) one line of fluff; 3) name exchange; 4) one more line of fluff; 5) lead-in to getting # ("I've gotta meet some friends, but I was thinking..."); and 5) the crux of it all "If you feel comfortable, we should exchange numbers -- we'll go out sometime." Really, really light and non-threatening -- kinda the anti
thesis of the hardcore, look deep into her eyes and peer into her soul SS methods. I think that's where the strength is - it's so non-threatening, the women can hardly summon up any resistance to it. How hard would *you* brace yourself against a leaf about to hit you? Also good pointers on attitude, how to deal with the phone call and answering machines, and how to deal with a host of objections -- again, the theme is light, non-threatening, straightforward. Altogether nothing we didn't already know, but a good organization of some solid thinking from someone who was a professional non- NLP persuader.
Ross: >This says two things 2) If you don't make a women >excited simply by your appearance (and this means more than just looks), you >better have a backup plan.
Well said; and even if you ARE "attractive" (whatever that happens to mean) you STILL better be prepared for flakiness, "auto-pilot" behaviors, etc. etc. >1) If you are attractive enough to get a woman >in bed, you should master the art of not fucking up
Agreed; and handling tests, situations where you might NOT be so attractive to someone you want to be with, etc. etc etc. >People who are able to get high close >ratios are either 1) naturally extremely attractive, or 2) masters of picking >which women are going to receptive to being approached by them. There was a >time in my life where I was getting a 90% close ratio, because I was only >approaching women who I could tell would be receptive
I'd add ONE more vital skill that you haven't considered, but that I have put a LOT of effort into the last year; learning to handle "auto-pilot" responses from women and turning it around to make them MASSIVELY more responsive than they would otherwise have been. >That resulted in me >feeling like a stud, but being limited to only those women who already >thought I was cute
Hmmm....let me give you a different criteria; approach women who are SUGGESTIBLE and who offer COMPLIANCE as part of their being CURIOUS and wanting to learn more. >I did two things, one I decided I would approach women >even if they didn't appear interested in me and find ways to change that, >and two I decided to do the most I could to increase the women who were >interested in me. Wear a cool shirt, be the life of the party, learn >language patterns, bring pivots out, smell good, ride a motorcycle and be a >ladies man. Also, know what state you need to be in to be effective. I >have to be excited, cocky, daring and happy to get beyond the chicks who are >just attracted to me for some unknown reason right of the bat.
VERY TRUE! GREAT! Add in this, "The ability to rapidly spot what other people are really responding to and rapidly utilize it!" In other words, a state of crystal clarity and readiness for action! >One last thought on looks. There are things that you can do immediately that >will improve your odds. Wear clothes that convey personality.
Style? I have a couple of dragon shirts, one is black with two HUGE red and yellow dragons. I get stopped and complimented on that by women all the time.
Ross commenting on NightLight9's response which was: >Lately I've been having a lot of luck with the mantra "I don't pick up >chicks" when I'm out sarging . One of the girls I'm dating always says >"Think about it." to me. That's very powerful.
How about this; instead of thinking of "walkups" how about thinking "Positive Energy Expansion". See who you will include in the circle of your good feeling and whether they deserve to stay around for more!
Ross (Commenting on comments on Bishop): >He wrote that he initially had delivery problems from the printer, and >then he tried to mail them on his own, and discovered printing problems.
Which is a contradiction to what he told me; that he DID mail them all (no printer problem ever mentioned) and that the post office lost all the orders.
Riiiiiight!
Ross Commenting on (Dwayne (www.dwacon.com)): >I was observing a woman telling her friend (about a guy who was like an AFC just doting on her -- >right in front of the dope's face, yet) "He's sweet, but he's not my type." >So, I'm thinking... next time a woman tries to lay that "not my type" bs on me, I'll need a kewl >pattern. So, here is a rough draft of what I came up with
Keep it simple. "If you want to prejudge your own opportunities based on the way you're USED to responding to men...maybe I'm not the one who really loses from that". Then start walking away...
Ross Commenting on a guru master: > 'Well, I take it back. You're not a great dancer...(you should have seen her face!)...What you >ARE...is a shining example...of what it means...to be ABSOLUTELY...BREATHTAKING' (On >BREATHTAKING, I gently grab her hand in my right hand and start rubbing the top of her soft hand >with my other hand, all the while breathing with her and staring DEEPLY in her eyes)
Ok. Good; what counts here and what worked is NOT the words, but the focus of his intent. The message he is sending that HE is in control of himself and is strong, making no apologies. >She was in a deep, speechless trance, as I continued to gaze into her eyes and said >'...And it's SO NICE...to meet someone...with such an incredible energy...and a gentle passion... >(5 second pause)...my name is KISS ME NOW' (She kissed me for about 3 and a half minutes >straight, passionately, yet soft and gently, and we caressed each others bodies slowly, yet >deliberately)
Ha ha ha. I am reading this ONE handed. And they say language doesn't matter.... >"Hi"...I just give a curious stare, like a child, for about 5 seconds and she blushes and smiles and >looks down. So I say (MY famous line, trademark)
Hmm. He's going into the state he wants HER to go into. By not responding right away, he puts her on hold.....(notice the 5 second pause again which builds the response potential by putting the other person on hold). THEN he leads her into the blushing state by going into a childlike state himself. >'What DIDN''T you say your name WASN'T?' (As I extend my hand) >(This can actually make a woman have a hard time remembering her name!) >'Melissa' >(This is where I gently hold her hand and put mine on top of hers, indicating that it should STAY >THERE) >'Melissa...it's nice meet a woman who doesn't have looks...(pause for effect)..and looks alone... >(hihi!)..because I can tell...you have great taste' >'OK...' >'Because you laugh at what I say (as I gently poke her stomach, and she giggles), and I DO >ENJOY...the company...of someone...who knows how to let loose...and giggle (poke tummy >again) and feel good! >At this point she's giggling so I go >'Speaking to you...as a person who loves to laugh...and feel good.
..for no reason, do you live in >San Francisco?' (I ran out of material!!!)\
Keep experimenting in this way; you've got the basics. Interrupting patterns thru silence, pausing, and/or confusing language. >When I approach a woman, I always do it with warmth and empathy, and they almost always >respond in kind. True, you have to call her on her bullshit and not back down, but alot of guys >seem to be looking for problems, thus creating them. >What I do is I presuppose she is whatever I want her to be, I do it with my language and >everything. It works.
That way, you give her a better direction in which to head. Good! >It'll work for a while, then they just go back to making internal movies of me doing nasty and >enjoyable things behind their backs. And the fact that I only see my girlfriends once a week turns >those submodalities way up!)
Yeah, bedrock insecurities require serious help to overcome. You can overcome some behavioral slips, but fundamental boundary problems need serious work. Or move on. >Either that, or I'll tell the girl, in the beginning, how I had "This crazy girlfriend" and launch into >whatever I want this girl to avoid, such as not understanding the need to go out with friends, have >other friends who are girls. Example >"Once I had this CRAZY girlfriend who actually thought that it was WRONG for me to look at >another girl!! Isn't that nuts? On the other hand, I dated this other girl who was SMART. Instead >of getting all worked up and throwing a fit every time a cute girl walks by, she did it in REVERSE. >She would say, "LOOK AT HER! Isn't she gorgeous!" Now, at first, I was shocked and a little >uncomfortable, but then I realized this is how ALL couples should be. Instead of going into stress >every time someone attractive is nearby, why not enjoy it instead? So, what I started to do was >play along with her. When I saw
an attractive man, I pointed him out. That caused an AMAZING >THING to happen, because it actually brought us closer together, know what I mean?"
I think that's golden! GREAT GOING!
Vinigarr: > I once posted on the SS list something along the lines of what Sisonpyh > advocates. A bit different with differences that make all the difference. > > Anyway, some time later there was a NYC meeting with some of the "top" SS > "brothers". At some point I had asked the bro's for their opinion about my > post, and I got mixed opinions. Many took the opposite view, of course.
I agreed with you AND Ross. I agreed with Ross, that it's not about being a control freak, a bully or ALWAYS responding a particular way or NEVER responding another. > Several hours later, I raised a question to the group. My question was > something like "What do you do with women so that they don't frame your > time with you as a "relationship"? What do you do to frame yourself > differently from other guys?" > > What surprised me was that the answers that I got and their methods were > EXACTLY the methods I outlined in my post! EXACTLY!! The same guys who > initially knocked my post, told me that they do PRECISELY what I > advocated! When I pointed that out to them, they were speechless!
I guess cause I don't see it as "never answer a question directly" but more like how can I respond in a way that engages the imagination and elicits responses that bring me closer to my goal? > E.g., one of the guys who knocked my "advice" told me that when a girl asks > him what do you, he tells her in a Mafioso-like tone, "I take care of > things.." He does that because he wants to come off as a Bad Boy, as a > mystery. He tells her, "If they throw me in once more, this time it'll be > for life!"
I don't ALWAYS respond that way. With that particular chick she asked me out of reflex, really not concerned with the answer and just to say something. So my response was perfect in that context with that particular girl. I might drop a bad boy seed here and there and see how she responds, but I will also test provider, adventurer, romancer characters and cycle between those that she responds best to. This allows me to not fit into any one particular category, thus creating a new category for me. This makes me different. > He's not giving her a straight answer!
You're right I don't give a straight answer, but my intent is to engage her imagination. That's the difference. If I were to respond "I drive a limo" that doesn't give me the response I'm looking for. Instead , I might say "what I do is very fulfilling. I operate a mobile confession booth" or "I take people on adventures" etc. etc. That builds interest and intrigue first and then when I say exactly what I do, I've pre-framed it in a way that provides a more effective lens in which to view me as a person. > In one shape or another, EVERYONE in that group followed my rule of > "changing either the request or the timing". And then they bitched about > this rule! > > What I'm saying is, Let's be honest about what we really do. Don't tell me > that my rule is so horrible when you yourself use it all the time.
I don't use that rule. I give her what she needs. When she wants to know what I do, what she really needs is to find out more about me and my model of the world. That is what I give her.
If she asks "Where are you from" I can answer Brooklyn, but again, that doesn't engage the imagination. Instead I might say "Where I'm from is very interesting... it's not the land of fairies, wizards and warriors, but probably a place you only caught a glimpse of in the movies" get her to process that, and then tell her.
So my INTENT is to engage her imagination, not evade her questions or not give her a straight answer. Although, yes, it isn't a straight answer, but it' the intent that makes the difference.
Flyer: > Descartes > This is an ad from a free personals site. I think it is very insightful > > "Too often, men say that women want to be treated like crap. Men seem to > think that women want the bad boy because he is dangerous and because we > can't have him. He won't commit to us, he doesn't have time for us, and > thus we desire him more. > > Gentleman, this is bullshit. > > Although we WANT the bad boy, we don't want him to be bad to us. We are > attracted to him because of other qualities, and we put up with the way he > treats us to access these qualities. Typically, a bad boy is aggressive. He > is controlling, decisive, and successful in business. He is competitive in > sports. He is a smart, calculating, smooth talker. Sexually, he will grab > us by the hair or throw us on a bed. He is dynamic, with a million > interests/friends and is busy all the time. He plays to win on every level > and lets no one get in his way. In a base, biological sense, a woman sees a > man like this and
thinks, Strong man. Head of tribe. He protect me and kill > big animal to eat. > > Unfortunately, women have needs beyond biological. We want a long-term, > monogamous relationship (boyfriend, husband, or long-time companion); > someone who won't cheat on us; someone who is sensitive to our moods and > fears; someone who WANTS to spend time with us; someone who calls to say > goodnight. Alas, most often this is not our bad boy as described above but > is instead the nice guy, quiet, poet, artist, gentle/careful lover who > would rather watch Antique Road Show than play sports, and who has so few > interests that he has all the time in the world for us. > > I'm falling asleep just thinking about him. > > Does a modern-day caveman who can fulfill both the biological and the > emotional/intellectual actually exist? I doubt it, but if you think you can > prove me wrong, then drop me a line. I am 34, extremely attractive, and > prefer men who are equally attractive and FIT (base biological thing again ;-)"
That entry in the personals is typical from a 30+ something. Do you really think she wanted a nice guy when she was at her prime at 21? FYI most chycks who claim they are real hot looking are in fact NOT.
*R*E*A*L*I*T*Y S*L*A*P
Whenever a chyck talks about what women want, it is important to factor in her age, AND her looks. That personals entry is exactly the opposite of what we know to be true of the young Hot Babes and Super Hot Babes. The older ones, past their prime, unattractive ones, yes. A lot of Super hotties spend their prime years giving themselves as an all you can eat buffet to every millionaire rock star and loser they can get their hands on, and once past their prime look for the nice guy chump/ AFC who will marry their damaged goods.
'Nuff said.
Maxin (Commenting on: the same section Flyer comments on above from Descartes): I think this is a great text. Just a little modification and it could be turned into the ultimate personal ad, just switch "gentleman this is bullshit" to "ladies this is bullshit" and a couple other modifications and I bet the response would be pretty strong.
Mark: "Let's have a passionate love affair behind your husband's back" To NightLight9
It's funny how most of the responses I have received from Cliff's list all seem to focus on the issue of looks. I never really brought up the issue myself or focused on it as much as all the respondents to my submissions. I also do not see myself as great looking or anything special. Average at the most but much of the feedback I have received from me and women indicates that I do look good and that seems to help greatly. That being said I believe that there obviously seems to be much more than just the issue of looks that makes a person attractive or desirable. If looks were the only variant then the world would be populated by only good looking people since only those would mate and any ugly string of genes would have eventually died off. How many times has you seen a woman with a baby and said to yourself "What sort of a madman would have the sickness and sense of humour in him to impregnate such beast?"
Let's use the following analogy. What makes a great car? A powerful engine, great exterior, internal features. The exterior may initially attract but without a powerful engine inside, unless you do not care about it, the car is not worth anything to you. Same idea with the issue of looks. A buff body without confidence, intelligence or a sense of humour may open a few doors but will not get you very far.
I went out with this once girl about 6 times in the spring. She was stunning, a former model, perfect breasts, full lips and an ass to kill for. But by the 2nd date I began losing all attraction. Why? She was loud. She laughed very loud and made stupid faces during conversation. She has a "nothing is ever wrong" attitude. She always said everything in her life was perfect. I asked her how her day was and she would say "Perfect, the best day ever" or how her workout went "One of the best I ever had." This made me fucking sick for nothing is ever perfect all the time for anyone. She also lacked openness and would not share her thoughts. These things indicated a lack of integrity and trust. I swear sometimes and when I did she corrected me and said that intelligent people do not swear. The last three times I saw her, she was the one that asked me out and I just went along for the sake of the activity i.e. movie, dancing not for her and to see if I could change my opinion of her. After I stopped calling her she c
alled me a few times to ask me out but I kept telling her I had plans even though sometimes I did not. The thought of sleeping with her repulsed me and I never did. She sensed my reluctance to sleep with her and told me what gets her in the mood in the hopes of having me arrange the setting so that I could sleep with her.
As good looking and attractive as she was she turned me off with her attitude. And having said that should it be any different with women seeing us men in the same manner? Looks attract but if you do not have a personality then you can forget about anything beyond first meetings.
I am sure all readers have seen really stunning women but said to themselves "I will not approach her because she seems closed off and is not likely to talk to me." Conveying openness and acceptance through a smile and eye contact tends to increase our level of attractiveness. Even walking through a mall I found that by looking in the eye at women that pass by makes them smile and say hello. Following that up with a smile and more eye contact and a friendly open and low key conversation seems to produce the best results. No matter how attractive you may be, if you lack openness and attentiveness you will lose anyone that comes across you path.
Here is a funny story for ya. About a month ago I met a woman outside my office building. I gave her my business card and told her to send me an e-mail. Two days later she did. We exchanged messages and when I asked her out she told me she was married. I then said to her "That is fine but I would like to have a passionate love affair with you behind your husband's back." She said no but continued to call me and e-mail me everyday saying she likes talking to me and walking to the mall for lunch. This week we were out walking and I was talking about how I would like her to cook for me. Later in the day she sent me an e-mail saying that she could come over to my house and cook for me. I challenged her comments saying that on the one hand she refuses the affair, which I constantly suggested to her, and on the other hand she wants to come over and cook for me. She became upset and said she did not want to speak to me again and wished me a good life. I hung up the phone and went along with my business. Next day at
8:00 am she calls me on my cell and leaves a message apologizing for her actions and asking me to call her back. I did not. The next day she sends me the following e-mail.
Hi Mark,
How are you? I guess you're still mad at me. Could you tell me what I did wrong so maybe you could help me improve on my weaknesses or bad habits. I never meant to hurt you. One time you told me that God send me to you, God is also a forgiving God when we say sorry. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.
Enjoy your day.
Lisa
With the help of Dennis Neder of www.remingtonpublications.com we created the following message that I sent to her:
Lisa
It's obvious that you've tried to manipulate me and the situation to achieve maximum attention from me without having to reciprocate to my interests in you. Unfortunately, I won't play this game.
You are an attention freak and I am not in the business of giving attention out freely.
When you have cleaned up your act and only when you have done so and only when you are ready for something more serious with me than we had, you are free to call me or contact me again.
I will not tolerate anything less than that or subject myself to any more nonsense from you.
She called me three times that day in desperation wanting to talk. The first two times I told her I was on the other line and the next time I was in a meeting. It's funny how a married women can be driven to this level of desperation and passions simply by telling her "I want you and I would like to have a passionate love affair with you behind your husband's back." I wonder how powerful this can be when used on single women or ones with boyfriends. I can't wait to test it out on other unsuspecting victims. Any comments?
Chuck: Stephanie was just killer with her explanation of nice guy vs. 'jerk'. I really liked her explanation. However, it would be foolish to think that all women think that way as they obviously don't. Even those guys that do watch the Antiques Road Show get laid occasionally and even get married, fruitful, and multiply. Proof is in the gene pool all around you. Point being it would be foolish to think that one model fits all women, so be flexible in your approach. However, if you do hit one that fits Stephanie's model as she described it, Stephanie has laid out the approach and criteria enormously well - you could not not succeed using it!
I gave a couple of presentations to the Mensa Annual Gathering here in Dallas in July. One on Palmistry and the other on Power Rapporting, which was a mix of rapport skills, values elicitation, stuff from the 48 Rules of Power and so forth. Interesting group - I did the presentations simply to be around them to see what they were up to. One of the gals that I met told me the Mensa guys were gleefully reassuring each other that if you couldn't get laid at a Mensa Convention, then you just couldn't get laid. Pretty obvious as to why she was telling me this, yes? Nice gal, not my type but found truth in her words - my first presentation was on the second day of the Convention and most of the people looked like warmed over death as they had been partying continuously since the thing started. When I went back the next day to give my second presentation, they looked like Death itself so evidently the partying continued on...didn't go back the last day of the convention so I have no idea of who was left standing by
then!
Magic Juan: >>The fact that it is hollow may mean you are confused about who you >>are.
I'm curious why it doesn't mean she is an open person with nothing to hide. >>instead of meditating, that you get out and talk to people.
Change "instead of" to "in addition to" and you have good advice.
LonesomeCat (Commenting to Darren: "I was wondering if there is anyone out there who is experienced at nonverbal (read mostly physical) techniques to get a woman aroused and turned on (I'm talking more about when you first approach a girl rather than later at your place or in the bedroom). You must know that I sarge primarily in clubs and bars, and my question is directed more in terms of those kinds of settings. Specifically, I have been observing how guys approach and interact with girls at bars and clubs, and I've noticed that some successful ones incorporate lots of physical contact (such as putting his arm around her waist, placing his hand on her back, rubbing her back, etc.) pretty early on in the approach. Lots of touching on the part of the guy seems to convey confidence and aggression, and the girls seem to enjoy this. This is one component that is usually lacking in my sarges, and I think it might be hurting my game. I invite thoughts and suggestions from other brothers on this top
ic. Also, if anyone can recommend any books or resources on this topic (especially for bar/club settings), please let me know."):
I would suggest may be not to invest so much in books, but rather in a good massage workshop, where you will be sure that there will be women participants (usually, there are more women than men, anyway!!). This would help you, while practising during the workshop, feeling different types of women (their bodies & psychic energies, if you care about this). And it should help you being more relaxed touching someone you hardly know.
And consider yourself lucky to be a man, for it is usually something a woman cannot do to a man in a bar (or in a public place...) because of ancestral prejudices. Men first...
Ronnie: To Ross Or to anyone else that can answer this. I have been reading Cliff"s list as well as some other web based discussion boards devoted to seduction, and there are two bodies of thought that seem to be opposed to each other yet very effective that are continually discussed. One is the SS model which uses a variety of tools to seduce women, some of it bold and direct, and some of it not so direct, poetic and hypnotic if you will . Then you have a style such as that practiced by Mark B. and others that is very direct, relies little on NLP or linguistic technique, just being bold and truthful. You tell a woman she is gorgeous and that you want to cover there body in kisses. You don't beg, you just tell the woman what you want and how you expect to be treated. Obviously this system is working. I have noticed other people using this style as well with success, and it does not seem to be dependent on how good looking you are or how much cash you have, women just respect you when show the
m your true passions about them and deliver it with a smile (similar to the grand master style that you see posted on the Maniac site - see www.pickupguide.com ).
I could go on with many examples of men who were very direct with women and had success, but I think most everyone in here is familiar with its effectiveness. My question is this, when should a person choose the direct nonNLP route or when should they choose the SS type route? I have read much of the advice given here, and although good, it tends to confuse me more on what style to model, especially the direct vs. SS mode. I like the SS model because it offers incredible potential and creativity in the seduction process and is very different from the macho, hard drinking "alpha" model that many think is the path to PUAdom. However, the process of SS is not natural for men, it takes a lot of time to learn the materials for some and on first sight is more complex and intricate; it is definitely the thinking man's seduction. In fact, I knew of one PUA who used the BJ pattern and instead of using chocolate as a metaphor he used the word penis. He got no complaints from the woman. On the other hand, the direct mod
el is nice because it is so simple, in other words it is short and sweet. It just seems a lot easier to tell a women that she is pretty and that you want to give the most passionate experience of her life to her. But on the other hand I realize there are limitations to this, for instance trying to mold a woman to your sexual desires might be harder.
At any rate, I am at somewhat of a crossroads on what direction to take. I have made direct sexual remarks before to women and not gotten any flack. Is it that women are changing and becoming more open where NLP is not as necessary as it once was? Or is it that some individuals are more suited to one style over the other? I am not looking for debate, just some concrete advice. As a follow up to Rasputin (which translated from Russian means "debaucherous"), I believe the book that detailed his seductions in depth was the first book that came out about him after the Soviet Union collapsed. Because of his seductions with female members of the Romanov dynasty, he was continually watched by the NKVD (precursor for the KGB). In typical AFC thinking of the day, it was thought that his seductions were because of the size of his penis. However this was disproved when a spy followed Rasputin to a Moscow bathhouse (taking a rare bath) and found out he was quite average in the endowment department. Because he was seen as
somewhat mystical, he would hold court on Sundays and people (mainly women) would visit him for spiritual advice, kind of the way you would line up to sit on Santa Claus's lap before Xmas. One thing he would do would be to briefly but intensely stare at a woman who may be across the room. Then he would look away ('do a take away' if you will) and continue with whomever he was talking with. Then he would look back at that woman again with his stare. Evidently, this had a very mesmerizing effect on the woman in question. Usually she would then come up to Rasputin and he would give her some intriguing bits of info and later seduce her. Since the free wheeling sexual days of Catherine the Great, female members of the Russian aristocracy had been seriously constrained, especially during the last Romanov dynasty. Many women of the court were in very defined, restrictive roles as members of the monarchy. Rasputin somehow put them in a state of relaxation (using similar techniques that he used to stop hemophilia), and was (at least temporarily) able to give them a sense of freedom, to be "natural" as it were. Sound familiar?
I have been to many bookstores and have been unable to find any books on Rasputin. I will probably order the most recent one on him (the one by David Moynihan might be the one I am looking for) and see if this is the one that devotes much to his hypnotic "debauchery". I guess biographies on the Brady Bunch are more popular than this intriguing and misunderstood monk.
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