I'm just a B&W thinker

Montreal group: If you are receiving this and are in Montreal, please email me at cliff@cliffslist.com to be put on the Montreal mailing list, where you will be notified of events happening here in Montreal.

The big event coming up May 11, 12 & 13 is Major Mark's seminar "Awakening Unafraid" with guest trainer Steve Piccus. Major Mark has been co-trainer with Ross Jeffries for the Speed Seduction seminars for many years and is responsible for inspiring a lot of the SS technology. Mark is also a master hypnotist, who gives seminars in Hypnosis (including Stage Hypnosis). Visit his website at www.trucor.com . Having said that, I will be attending the seminar and I have been thinking that those of you interested in meeting on Thursday evening, May 10th before the seminar should contact me. We will probably meet in the lobby of the hotel downtown where the seminar is being held and then....well, you'll have to show up to find out what happens.

Nathan's site new.metabork.fr.eu.org/lounge/ not working

| I like Mystery's method when it comes to the PU . I think it is more complete and gives one more "chess moves". Mystery's method forces you to become the man that women want. Ross does have some unbelievable, awe-inspiring points when it comes to the non-pattern advice like affirmations and cold pickups. Mystery's personality is unreal, and that is a function of him talking with thousands of women through trial and error.

Guys, I just read the book, "What the Hell Do Women Really Want" and I have to tell you it is a must read since it backs up most of the points discussed here. It is written by a woman, but she says to act like a jerk and so forth. It's awesome.

Joseph:
>This runs right along the lines of what I've come to describe as
>"Toronto's Plague". Some may disagree with me, but the chicks, and people
>in general, of Toronto, are far meaner than friendly. I've been to a
>variety of places, seen about 25 states, lived in California, and Toronto
>is the unfriendliest city I've ever known

This is interesting because I sometimes look through the on-line personal ads - most of them you have to pay to message people, but you can put a free ad up....so mostly I just look to read women's ads and see what they are looking for. I have noticed that there are more "women seeking men" ads from Toronto and Ontario in general than anywhere else - Texas looks like a close second - both of these places I don't visit, but I was thinking of including them in my plans just because of all the gunch that seems to be there! ICQ is overloaded with chicks looking for romance in Toronto and Ontario, and I've even asked them about it - 3 of the girls I asked said that there was a big shortage of men in Toronto, and one of the women said that men in Ontario are jerks. The place seems like a goldmine for PUA 's! If I were you I'd actually join one of those online sites www.friendfinders.com www.questpersonals.com www.confidentialconnection.com www.dating.com There are alot more on search engines, and from what I've seen and done most chicks won't even bother replying if you're not from the same city as them, so you've got a good chance of at least communicating because you actually live in the city of lonely women.

My Comment: It is mainly laziness (and some lack of time) that prevents me from running an updated list of singles/dating sites that are completely free (free to advertise and free to respond to ads; sites like friendfinders and questpersonals, etc. may give you a free trial but as a general rule, responding costs money). If anyone has a list of similar sites, send it in and I will eventually add the ones I have run them here.

TomBOy: Dilemma: I seem to be too old for the thirty & under hot babes. (To them, anyway. Too bad my wallet isn't thicker by a few million or so.) And the over 45's are all mostly out of shape and forget it over 50. I'm in very late 50's but get taken for early 40's all the time. Super good shape, young skin, dress, etc. The field seems very small with fewer choices, Does the pheremone stuff really work? I don't go to bars & clubs. Unhealthy, for several reasons. I saw "The Tao of Steve". Great movie, with some laughs. How to be a Steve instead of a Stu. Check it out. I guess I have to go back to school & change with the times. Seems like my high energy & good looks can only go so far. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

My Comment: The biggest obstacle is your thinking that you are too old. There are just too many older guys out there with hot young GF's in their 20's & 30's -- it's clear that age is not that important to a lot of women. When you were younger you didn't have the experience - now you have the experience and tell yourself you are too old. Well, you aren't going to get any younger so that isn't going to change; the only thing you can change is your own attitude about it. It may take more work to find the women who like older men so here are a couple of places to start looking: The first is the MSN Community, Young Women Who Love Older Men ( communities.msn.com/isapi/acssrv.dll?action=acwarning&c=&redir_url=% 2Fisapi%2Facssrv%2Edll%3Faction%3Dhomepage%26commid%3Dyoungwomenwholoveolder men) and the second is Young Women (under 30), who enjoy Older Men (over 40) communities.msn.com/YoungWomenunder30whoenjoyOlderMenover40

Crazy1: I have immense amounts of respect for this list but question why we need to be promoting the cult influence for reasons other than seduction. Seduction has it's own traits that may follow very closely but why get on a list of people that are creating cults? Do we really want to entangle ourselves in that mess? I don't think that we need to go that far, it is just pushing an envelope that doesn't need to be pushed.

Beside the fact that Alpha Males and seduction artists put their greatest effort forward to be the top of the line, there is no reason to mention cults. It is not relevant to the art of seducing women in any way shape or form. There is no reason to make people think that seducing women should be some sort of cult formation.

I do admit that there are many cult type influences and followings but do we really need to put this list in the public eye?

I would like to hear comment, and I would also like to hear a justifiable reason that we should be talking about forming cults in this newsletter.

My Comment: I guess not everyone has my sense of humour. I just thought that was pretty interesting -- I am not a promoter of cults, that's for sure. And it was mentioned because there was a hypnosis/seduction element to it. I run a lot of stuff on my list from a different perspective than someone who is advertising something: what I am doing is pointing out stuff that I find that looks interesting. If I have bought it, and read it (which often I never get to), I will let everyone know what I thought about it. If not, I mention it so others can let the rest of us know if it is worthwhile or not. This really comes from the perspective as I am one of you. I have no financial interest in ANY of the products that you see on my list (contrary to what some of you think about my relationship with Ross and SS ) and only promote the stuff I think is good. And always without any personal gain (although, if anyone wants to express their appreciation in the form of freebies, they are more than welcome).

Blade:
>I mean, it's one thing to know about it, but for a non-user to recognize a
>pattern? I'm not sure I'd even recognize some of the pattern-speech if used
>well - I mean some regular talk sounds like pattern-speech. Maybe she was
>flirting and didn't really know, just guessing because SS had intrigued
>her.....but Incredible Connections is the Classic....so maybe she
>did......anyone else been "busted?"

Yup. I was out with my wingman PowdR in Oslo, Norway - and got pretty close with this brunette HB . In the middle of some heavy patterning, she interrupts me and says: "Hey, are you doing Speed Seduction on me?" That basically paralyzed me...for about two seconds...and then some kind of unconscious response in me made me turn the whole situation around and say:

- Yes. Because over the years, women have told me that most men don't understand them...know how to really CONNECT with them in that special way...and I gradually came to realize...that Speed Seduction was a way of learning what a woman really wants ( pts ) and needs...to be able to talk to a woman in a way...that makes her feel safe and comfortable. And as you feel that special connection with a man ( pts ) who understands exactly what your dreams and fantasies are made of...I wanted to learn what I can do to really make you...just let go...and experience new directions...Imagine..that a man would dedicate himself to really learn how to please you...in all the ways you've always wanted to be pleased...can you feel THAT is something an intelligent woman would truly appreciate?

Her: Oh, my god - YES! You really know your stuff don't you? :D

And then we actually had a long conversation on how almost all the men out there are so selfish and don't really know what women want, etc. he he

You have to realize that SS isn't about how to 'trick' a woman into doing what you want - it's really getting to know women and how they think, so that you in your communication may speak to her on her own level...

Mystery:
>Totally true. He's arguing ala James Randi. Obviously one of his heroes.

Why is arguing ala James Randi a bad thing? The man is KNOWN for his brilliant rationalizations. This statement of yours is a GREAT COMPLIMENT. I respect Randi as does anyone with a penchant for systematically investigating irrational claims. Do I respect RATIONAL people? Fuck, yeah! What is WRONG with B&W thinking? (Let's remember that B&W is only a metaphor ... yes or no is another way of thinking of it ... or most accurately TRUTH or FALSE). A statement can always be simplified to a simple yes or no ... a truth or a falsehood. ALL KNOWLEDGE can be DIGITALLY ENCODED. ALL OF IT - information holds no MAGICAL quality - let's de-mystify it. If your mental model includes mystical notions like collective consciousness, psychic vampires and 'non-linear' thinking, or COLORFUL ways of thought like the colorful words TRANCE and HYPNOTIZE, then a more REASONABLE SYSTEM can still be found. Translating MYSTIC ideas into the language of memetics (specific length of information encoded in the brain) will result in a more accurate picture. Randi ROCKS. He is BRILLIANT ... although I doubt he gets laid much ... but that's another issue altogether. :D
>>~Squeaky~:
>>Mystery:
>>I watched Ross' LA seminar
>>and it took literally over an hour to get to ONE major point (how the
>>dating frame sucked).
>Did you watch the ENTIRE seminar? When I first saw that early segment I
>thought, "Oh crap, Ross is gonna filibuster for 16 hours! Why is he spending
>so much time working on one person?" but by the end I saw that he was able
>to refer back to the frame theory throughout the weekend and every time he
>mentioned it, the more powerfully it stuck in my head... I've got a thick
>skull and appreciate that he harps on certain themes.
>And the stuff I ignored cuz I didn't think it was important, came back to
>BITE ME IN THE ASS later on. Sure the seminar starts off a little slow, but
>there's lots of red meat there. He opens up many loops, goes on meaningful,
>almost Proustian, digressions and at the end he closes the loops...
>Criticizing 1/16th of a weekend seminar is not the way to go. It really
>should be thought of as a hole.

Let's just say that 1/3rd of his seminar was disappointing so far. I ASSUME the rest of the seminar is still in SEMINAR form, yes? I criticize the fact that the info is in seminar form to BEGIN WITH. A bunch of guys in a room for that long ain't a good thing. In the same amount of time a person can get a hell of alot more in his head by working a club with a PUA coach on his wing . Information goes from brain to brain in a LINEAR way. MANY LOOPS and DIGRESSIONS make for a messy (and may I add NEEDLESSLY MESSY) meme complex transfer. Instead of trying to teach all these IDEALISMS of SEDUCTION, why not teach exactly what he DOES? MM is the MYSTERY METHOD. It's about me ... MYSTERY ... replicating my METHOD ... my PERSONAL real life practical METHOD into the minds of those who wish to get similar results. No need for LOOPS and DIGRESSIONS. Read an organized set of books, do the basic training for real field experience (just like I did) and you get the same results as me. Isn't that reasonable? A SYSTEM of cognitive organization. No NON LINEAR shit. Sure the MM model is not merely a like a single DOS program .... it's more like several DOS programs running in a multi-tasking environment - simultaneously. If I could program a computer, I would be able to replicate my method to create very similar behaviors. There ARE after all, only so many scenarios, so many contingencies, so many routines to perform. This is not an INFINITE system. It's a CLOSED SYSTEM - FINITE with a set amount of running variables. You learn faster by DOING than just by watching. 3 days of seminars ... that's a little rough on the ass, isn't it? Having to go at the pace of the slowest phobic? How bout going at your OWN pace? So long as you are CONSISTENTLY meeting girls you will be CONSISTENTLY LEARNING. Then with the assistance of information from the books (and possibly live coaching from a good PUA wing ) you build a mental model that FITS the environment. But then what the fuck - what do I know. *shrug* I could be completely off my rocker.
>Joseph:
>Hopefully this will put an end to Mystery's ill-informed comments about
>mental rehearsal vs.basic training, comments which sparked this entirely too
>long heated debate which has already bored most of us to no end and is
>exposing the sophomoric tendency to one-up each other by two of our most
>respected leaders. A few years ago, a major US University conducted an
>experiment with basketball players -
>3 groups of equal numbers of college basketball players . Each group had an
>initial test to determine level of free-throw skill, to be compared with a
>similar test at the end of a three month period.
>
>A group practiced free throws for those 3 months, 2 hours a day
>B group imagined practicing free throws only in their mind for those 3
>months, 2 hours a day
>C group did nothing at all pertaining to basketball for those 3 months (i.e.
>the control in the experiment)
>
>A group and B group made roughly the same improvement over-all at making
>free throws consistently. B group actually improved slightly MORE than A
>group, but it was an insignificant amount. C group did not improve at all,
>and actually got a slightly lower score than it had at the beginning of the
>experiment.
>
>Sure, throwing free throws isn't the exactly same thing as seducing people,
>but you get the point - Mystery is wrong.

I do not challenge this data. The MAJOR difference here is that the well defined laws of parabolas was already stored in memory by YEARS of familiarity with the laws of physics (I assume the ball players were not infants?). Once you play Pacman long enough, you can DREAM Pacman (simulate it in the mind with a fair degree of accuracy). But you can't simulate it accurately til you've PLAYED the game yourself. The rules must be internalized first. So for something as mundane as internalizing the rules of natural arcs on earth, such information can be simmed quite quickly (such basic information may even be hardwired into the brain by evolution). But for a complex set of rules like social interaction in a memetic (cultural) environment, you have to FAMILIARIZE yourself with the rules before you can run sims in your head. So Mystery is NOT wrong. All you have to do is EXPERIENCE FIRST and THEN you can read the books and simulate scenarios to your heart's content. BASIC TRAINING FIRST! Without that your sims are utter fantasies. Visualization cannot BEGIN until you have EXPERIENCE. Here is a way of looking at it: do you think I would invent a mental model WITHOUT EVER HAVING APPROACHED A WOMEN? I mean, I COULD (look at Ray's book OUTFOXING the FOXES for an example of this) but you think it will have anything to do with reality? In a similar way, you wouldn't expect to encode someone else's model of reality ( SS or MM) into your skull without first knowing how and where the model fits in RELATION to reality would you? But then again, I'm just a B&W thinker.

Brother Diamond: I've been trying to talk to lesbians and study them...what makes them tick and so on. Can anybody give any concrete info on why they view themselves the way they do and how it happens? It seems as far as I can tell it depends on how they view their origins, as either being born like this or just completely tired of men for good and turn to women instead. Any thoughts on this and the fact that most of them are assholes to men?

Doc: Developments, Developments!!!! MAN. Ok. Lots has happened. Things are weird. Remember EVIL SISTERS??? Ok, one of them, let's call her Mary. I invited Mary over for dinner. Went to pick her up. She brought red wine, and we shopped around, etc. I'm a decent cook and she rather enjoyed the food. We sat in my room, eating, dining, listening to music, talking....

This was at 6 pm.

We spoke for ages. Sooner than later, it was midnight. I promised to walk her back to her place, but then at some point, I decided to take a big turn. I was able to be an actual PERFORMING ARTIST. I realized that by doing something that can bring her to an emotional state of ATTACHMENT due to the way she was, I was able to PERFORM an ACT of CRYING. It was fantastic. She held me close, holding my hand, etc. NONE of this would've probably happened if it wasn't for the sudden emotional connection we felt. Well, I mean the crying was probably also helped a little by the alcohol, and I wasn't just making something up out of the blue. But we sat there holding hands....she had tears in her eyes. It really meant a lot to me. Things developed....I started to suggest that I've never met someone like her in my life, etc. She sat there on my bed, and started shaking a little and she noticed it. I held her hand, and never let go. At some point she told me, "Maybe we can be the best of friends." I told her, "Mary, I really can't hide all my feelings for you." She said "I am just afraid... if we go into a relationship, I will lose you."

To be frank, I DO connect with this girl. It's amazing. In my experience, usually it's just some pick up, some SS , a bit of work here and there and bang boom bang get outta my room see ya later. This girl is NOTHING like it. I've known her as friends, and just in a few hours it just happened.

She actually spent the night here in my room with me. We slept in the same bed, holding each other. I was really close to bringing her to orgasm, but she then said "I can't believe I'm doing this... I'm such a bad girl..." You see she usually isn't anything like this. Mary is a rather complex girl. I'd still like to go out with her, and I think with time something will develop.

She left at 8 in the morning. I think she was somewhat confused but she DEFINITELY liked me. I spoke to her later and she basically said that she's a little scared (oh sorry forgot she's never ever had a boyfriend!!! And I think I am able to establish SO much rapport and SO MUCH connection with her she thinks I'm literally her soul-mate).

I kind of feel the same way because I really like her. I am trying not to fall into wrong territory but as you guys know I've been working at this girl for a long time and now BOOM it happened.

I really need to sort things out. We're going for a walk on the beach on Wednesday, perhaps to talk about things. and if I can hear from anyone before then I'd be very grateful. I am wondering what to say so that I can have her to be affectionate towards me in public. In private now, I think when the "moments are right" (and that's pretty damn easy for me to establish - I've planted a few anchors already) it will happen.

I just really like this girl and I'm trying to be careful. Oh, and another thing - this came to me as a surprise but she is actually hypnotically suggestible. I am being careful here because I am tempted to do something but I really really like this girl. I also think direct/dynamic hypnosis is just cheap if I use it to get her.

I think in some way she needs to alleviate the fear of losing me. She needs me to be by her side, and I'm fine with that but I think she's just afraid. The MOMENTS we've had - I think those are what she treasures. She ENJOYED them and has never EVER felt anything like that before. I tried to bring in her imagination, suggesting the "Our World" pattern. I also tried to show her that there are 2 sides to every girl - the inner core self and the culturally programmed self.

I think this is SO true for her because what she did with me, is definitely NOT the way she is "culturally programmed". I don't know how to get around this.... Never been in a situation like this.
>GameMaster:
>Why do you need a story? Fuck, I'm going go buy some Christmas
>cards tomorrow! That's beautiful. Now this guy GETS it! He's relaxed, his
>eyes aren't rolling back in his head, HE is in control of himself, and he is
>making a conscious effort to be different. Be fascinated with the
>experience, not the individual. Doc, I'll hang out with you anytime. Let me
>know if you ever decide to move to the States!

Lol- the story was actually implanted with a few SS embedded commands, I know I said you can play it cool and it works too, but I was just playing around anyway, haha. If the stripper really has a boyfriend, she won't want you. Even if she acts like she does, she's doesn't want you! She wants your MONEY! Or whatever else you might have to offer! (fame, etc.) but IF she doesn't have a boyfriend... hmmm. That's when you jump right into the stripper's mind with your powerful suggestions.

I AM from the States, GameMaster. I'm just away at university!! Relaxed and in control? I don't know, man. You should read the bit about the evil sisters, I'd say I'm starting to lose a bit of touch.... And God, I'm only 19.... Shit.
>LMAO!!!!! I had a GF a year ago who actually told me she wanted one of
>these things. I ordered one but we broke up while it was being shipped...
>however, I did get to use it with the current MLTR . It was a lot of fun.
>Very similar scenario as your first outing.

Hey question - anyone here ever made a girl orgasm just by activating an anchor? What's a good anchor to plant for that? I have found an erogenous zone on Mary (evil sister HB ) and it's great because it works everytime the way I touch... haha so I just need to find a good way to anchor it. I am thinking of a combination of voice, breathing and touch....
>Yep. Mine is actually a LONG TERM investment. It's an investment in a
>lifestyle. I guess SS is about starting to get laid soon after learning
>while MM is about laying experiential ground work so when you finally DO
>start getting laid it will be by particularly HOT babes. (I gear it to HB 's
>and not just B's except for practice).

But don't you think that SS is based on similar principles? SS IS a long term investment- it DOES change your lifestyle in that you learn to bring out many great things in females.
>Read my DIGITAL PHOTO ROUTINE! Do a search.

Haha I JUST got a digital camera too... but I don't' know yet I'll see how it goes with Mary (aka Evil Sister #1). I actually like her to the point I won't mind settling down for a bit.

Casey:
>Mr. Icerigger:
>I've been reading Influence: Science and Practice by Robert Cialdini.
>This book is solid gold. The chapter on social proof alone is worth the
>price of the book. I know that this isn't an unknown book to the seduction
>community - but I thought I'd throw out my recommendation just in case. : )

Casey: See Dr. Robert Leiberman's, "Get Anyone to Do Anything and Never Feel Powerless Again."

Casey: Story Time! Saturday Night, Big Dress-Up Party (I'm wearing a Tux)

Ok, so I met this chick, we danced, I did Mystery's "Gummy Bears" game; I got her out to my truck, I did safety & comfort patterns. We ended up staying out together until 3 am, number close (only!!!)

We agreed to get together 2 nights later, but when we talked, she declined and we talked instead.

Monday Night (HOOPS) So, we're talking and I'm leading the conversation around to being spontaneous; I ask her if she can be/is spontaneous and ask her to describe that last time that she was extremely spontaneous. She describes herself and some girlfriends talking about a trip on Monday, and then the entire group calling in sick and taking the rest of the week to go out-of-state; I'm impressed. We start talking about going camping together and she suggests that we go camping that night. I say ok, I'll come over and pick you up and we'll go! She says, "Sure." and starts to tell me directions to her place. I tell her to wait because I can't drive & write at the same time. So I tell her I'm heading her way (it's about 9:30 pm.) So we're talking and I'm driving her direction, but no address, no directions (ok, I could have done better here); she's not quite sure to believe that I'm really on the way to her city and is teasing about me being in my apartment pretending; I'm teasing her back, but asking specific questions about directions on the way (I'm really on my way.) So I get to within 5 miles of her place, it's about 10:30 pm, and I ask her to which street I should take from the freeway, she starts flaking on me. I take some exit that I think that she is suggesting and am describing my position, but she's not helping. I finally stop and continue talking with her, but she's not helping me get there. She says, "It's too early", and I ask how she knows and do some SOM and some pattern language around, but I don't get the info that I need. I finally turn around and head back and she plays with me a little more saying that she'll make some hot soup for me, and I ask her if I should turn around and come to her place. She says no, we talk until 11:30 pm and I sleep alone. HOOP Analysis Ok, so I got played BIG TIME! She put up a HOOP and I jumped through it, like a good little doggie. It cost me pride & dignity, and I have no intention of calling her again. Ok, fine. So Mystery, where (maybe it's perfectly obvious to everyone but me), exactly, did I screw up? How could I have handled her HOOP and changed it into her jumping through MY HOOP?