The Handshake

Halbmike: Mystery quoted me here. I want to make it very clear that this wasn't me because it is the opposite of the way I think. I believe in taking complete responsibility for my communication. Seduction is largely a communication.
> >>Halbmike: Sometimes neghits are necessary to get the female's attention.
> >>Jeez, this chick is 31 years old, and she takes what one guy says so
> >>seriously? She needs to grow up. Think about all the verbal abuse us men
> >>have taken in our PU attempts. You have to just dismiss it and move on.
> >>Are women that much different than men? If she is so messed up in her head
> >>that she can't dismiss that insult for what it was, then she deserves all
> >>the pain that she gets. It may seem cruel, but that's the way things are.

Linda: (commenting on everyone's comments on the departure of Hypno Slut from the list because of too much negativity towards women and because of too much attention on the sole pursuit of sex) Any negativity towards women here isn't half as bad as the shit women say about men in emails, message boards, listservs, Cosmo magazine, office cubicles and elsewhere. The anger women have is unbelievable. I should know because I was one of them! But that's a topic for another list...

Anyway, for all people, men and women, anger is a normal reaction to rejection. Ross or someone here must have plotted the stages that guys go through as they develop their SS skills. Perhaps anger is one of the first stages...all this anger is what probably motivated some of them to do something about their situation with women in the first place. What I've seen from the more experienced and masterful SSers is the prevailing attitude of having a good time and enjoying the company of a woman (or two or three) instead of anger. In other words, once guys learn more SS , it seems they become less angry and more successful. It's a phase--if they continue to learn SS they let go of some of that baggage.

The last SS seminar I went to, guys kept asking me why I was there. Well, I'd rather have men learning these tools than not! If I were single, I'd much prefer to be approached by someone with SS knowledge than by a clueless AFC or a vicious bully. I had too much of the latter. So keep on Sarging . Disarm those bitch shields while disarming one's own jerk shields. Have fun.

GameMaster (Commenting on private email where a date of mine ended with "the handshake"): The "Handshake"! Ooooohhhh, I just fuckin' hate that, man don't you? I hate puttin' in all that work for that but then again I'm sure you dropped a few time bombs in there that could detonate in a few days or so. One of the things that I can never remember to do is to get myself in state before launching on these chicks. And Wendi's book ( www.wendi.com/ ) has some great advice on what not to do to maintain rapport. There were a lot of unconscious things that I do that are NO NO's! I guess I never thought of rapport being something that the unconscious mind was in control of! She's got a tape titled Hypnosis for Magnetism that is awesome. I listened three times yesterday and I don't know what the fuck but it was almost like I was sending out these psychic signals or something but basically every chick I know in the world called me last night to request the pleasure of my company. I woke up this morning wondering if I was dreaming all that but there they are on my cellphone. The topper was the little shooter girl from out of town....she's coming down tonite just for the evening. I guess we're gonna celebrate her 21st a couple of weeks early! I've been doing patterns on all these girls and haven't noticed the strong response we've been told about, but who knows. In the Methods and Masters CD's Ross has a new pattern in there that's really powerful....good stuff, don't know if you've heard it. I wish he shipped notes with this stuff. Fuck I don't know, the more I learn the less I know about why or when this stuff works. I think one reason that I've had such consistent results in strip clubs is 'cause I go immediately into state when I walk through the door but it's not something I do consciously. SpaceLord is sort of a combination of Cary Grant, Rasputin, and Tarzan with a literary degree. I think it really all boils down to intrigue. I've found that a lot of times when I get on a roll and fall into a comfort zone with a chick that maybe I break that by talking to much..I'm pretty sure that's what happened with Sandy last week. I'm not sure women really want a guy that is that strong or projects too much force and confidence. Back to that post I sent you about women wanting strength but vulnerability at the same time. When I figure out how to manifest that I'll let you know! : )

Mystery: Halbmike:(Commenting on: > Mystery comments on Assman)
> >I disagree. If you can't FIND them, get their
> >attention (the OPENER),disarm their obstacles ,provide
> > social proof and THEN get them to join you in a 1:1
> >set at the couches, then you cannot begin SS .
> > Remember that SS is designed for the LA cafe scene -
> >for 1:1 sets - a single target with no group around
> >her. Most cities in the US and Canada do not have
> >similar scenes. In Toronto a cafe is literally a
> >donut shop - with the old bag lady in the corner.
> >What about when a hottie is with her parents?
> >Then what? All the stuff leading TO the SS is called
> >FLUFF talk. That severely minimizes the importance
> >of what must happen in that FLUFF TALK.
> >Opening, raising interest, removing obstacles or
> >people, noise and time constraints, getting them to
> >trust you enough to sit with you. THEN you can do> > SS .
> >And then after that you still have to >close> ...preferably kiss close.
> >There is alot to the game and SS is only a part of> the
> >LIFECYCLE of a PU .
>I think you need to learn more about SS before you can make that >comment. SS has many MAJOR influences outside of the LA cafe seen. >Major Mark lives in a suburb in the midwest. The SS list has people from >all around the world. SS can work just as well with groups of women or >women in places outside of the cafe. It works because it is designed to >work with the way people's (including HB 's) minds are structured. SS deals >with "Opening, raising interest, removing obstacles or people, noise and >time constraints, getting them to trust you enough to sit with you." And, >you don't wait to do SS . You start SS in the beginning.

Dude, man ... I'm MYSTERY : ) You think I was born in a bubble and don't know about SS or something ... dude ... I'm ... MYSTERY. What a stupid debate this is. You say that SS is the be all and end all. I say it isn't. I say, if you don't have ANYTHING, it's GREAT. If you are a pro pua , though, you will have discovered OTHER ways to score. The mental model of SEDUCING a WOMAN by making her FEEL GOOD is ONE model. Another is to SYSTEMATICALLY CONVEY a mysterious persona and look for indicators of interest. I'm all for what gives RESULTS. I'll slap a playful challenge down any time to see which mental model reaps the most efficient results. Hey ... I'm MYSTERY! : D
>Try it sometime, sneak behind a women, touch her before you say a word to
> her, then speak to her with authority in your voice, maybe even present
> yourself as an authority, it need not make sense, or seem believable.Bark
> questions at her, "I'm the monitor here, what are you doing? where are you
> going? We have been watching you, you may be in violation,I'm afraid
> you're in trouble. You must present me with some I.D." Watch her eyes and
> body language, confuse her with conflicting statements, keep your hands on
> her to> show control, be overbearing, and even sinister. Do these experiments and> see just how timid people really are, and take advantage of the sheep who> cower before you.
>I think this method is a form of desperation and being a bully. I'd also
>say that you got what you deserve if some women gets you arrested or some
>guy (or woman) beats the daylights out of you. Plus, you're missing out on
>the much of the fun of the seduction process. There are much better ways to
>get an adrenalin rush than by victimizing another person. Although I haven't
>seduced every woman that I've ever approached I've never had to runaway >or hide in fear.

I have to agree with Halbmike here. While I don't think it's bullying nor needy of a police raid, I think the playfulness is lost in the awkward confusing feeling that follows. That's all. I'd love to see it work and not work on video. Damn! Halbmike, for the benefit of all here (so that we may continue to have these enjoyable spirited debates) check out The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. The book has a chapter called The Baloney Detection Kit that lists a whole bunch of logical fallacies that happen in debates. You've been caught in a few of them (nothing personal). Check out the book 'cause you'll be able to convey your meaning in a more precise manner. The above error in logic stems from what is called The Slippery Slope Principle. "If I give you a chip ... I'll have to give everyone ELSE a chip too."

GROFFITTI: Sometimes when I read this I feel like I'm listening in on a union bitch session with a bunch of members of the United Postal Workers of America.

My Comment: Well shut my Canadian mouth....

Halbmike: Mystery wrote: "You will rarely HAVE rapport with a 10 you just met. In order to BUILD rapport you must first capture her RESPECT. NEGS aid you in doing this."

Halbmike's comment -- perhaps you need to find some better approaches or rapport methods. "...rarely have rapport with a 10 you just met" is a very limiting belief. I start with an expectation that they will like me.

Mystery wrote:
>>Halbmike: Sometimes neghits are necessary to get the female's attention Halbmike: comment I didn't write the above. It is 180 degrees opposite of my way of thinking

Mystery also wrote:
> >Halbmike: I partially agree with you, but the problem with your approach is
> >that it doesn't work with super HB 's or extremely confident women.

Again, I didn't write this. Mystery, sometimes I wonder if you intentionally misquote me and twist my words? But, then I realize the complexity of people quoting people responding to other people I'd like to have a productive dialogue where we can both learn. Although, I don't always agree with you I think you do certain things very well, I respect your creativity, much of your thinking and also know that you have a reputation for getting results. I'm not interested in an ego game. As far as I'm concerned you can have the title of World's Greatest Pickup Artist. I'd like to learn from you and the others on this list, and hope that I might spark some interesting discussion and productive dialogue. I think concepts like neghits have been around for years. There have even been books written like Shark's "How to be the Jerk Woman Love. I understand why people use them. I just think there are other more effective methods, and they violate some of my personal rules. Most importantly, for me seduction isn't about turning a woman on by stripping her of power (although I realize sometimes this works for people). I believe in turning woman on by helping them to discover, appreciate, and savor power that they never knew they had. I think neghits are a subtle form of supplication because you only need to knock her down if she is above you. You wrote " NEG 's are meant to lower self esteem on someone who believes she is above you." I don't believe in lowering woman's self-esteem. Woman see that I respect myself and I allow them to feel lucky to be with me (ala Sisonyph). I think we are going around in circles and it is time to agree to disagree about neghits.

I'm looking to end what I don't think is a productive debate Neghits vs. other methods. I think I've made my views clear and don't have much more to say. People can experiment and find out what works for them, or what their ethics permit.

Kitty: "I don't agree. Pointing out to a girl that her spindly fingers remind you of ET is great! Just don't pick on breast size, ass, legs ... NECK is ok too. Another ET crack! Truth is, if you CAN pick on a girl's breasts or ass, she ain't a 10 and you shouldn't be NEGGING anyhow."

Right, so you're all on the quest for the perfect woman? If they're perfect, you can neg 'em, if they're less than perfect, you can't. And who decides the perfection? You? The so-called perfect woman, in the way she conducts herself? No one is perfect, okay... And if you told me my spindly fingers reminded you of ET, I'd promptly wrap them around your throat and inquire whether ET ever did this to Drew Barrymore. You're not perfect either, any of you, so if you neg hit someone, they're likely to throw it right back in your face, what goes around comes around, Karmic circle, etc. etc.

Having said that, I do agree that some women are far too full of themselves, and do need taking down a peg or two. Can I ask you to please define for me what makes a woman a "10", a "5" or a "2"? I'm just curious, is all, and interested to see how much opinions differ.

And yes, I'm fully aware I sound like a giant hypocrite : )

Meo: Guys since I'm a beginner I need an advice. I used some techniques described on Maniac's page and it worked on the girl I wanted. So in one week I got laid with her. But next week all I was just going over to her place and having sex with her. Almost no chatting, no patterns, nothing, 'cause I thought it was not necessary. Of course, one week later she said she didn't feel good with me and something was wrong in our relationship. And she is leaving for 2 weeks. So basically, I have 2 questions: 1. what should I do before she will leave (3 days left). 2. Should I use distance seduction described on Maniac's page via e-mail or should I let her forget everything and start again when she comes back?

DeepBlue: Ron wrote:
> By the way Cliff, I have NEVER gotten the
> impression that your list was negative towards
> women.

I think what is at issue here is partly that men and women often see things differently. For many women (yes I know, not all women) relationships are the holy grail they seek, and in spite of constantly reminding themselves (lest they forget) that "men only want one thing" (of course, a generalization too) women sometimes forget. So at times, a woman unthinkingly assumes that men also view relationships as the real prize and when she sees a group of guys talking about how to "win" a woman for nothing but sex, she isn't seeing that the guy wants women for sex. She is busy seeing the glaring fact that he DOESN'T want women for anything else. From her point of view, that looks like a rejection of women. She thinks, "wow, these guys must really HATE women cuz they don't want relationships with them." She assumes that if the guys DID like women, they'd want a relationship and not just sex, because that is HER barometer of liking men--wanting a relationship.

For some reason this reminds me of that film called, "Black Rain" where Michael Douglas goes and fights organized crime in Japan. The US media was all aghast at it portraying the Japanese as a bunch of uptight sickos, while making Americans look like cool dudes kicking butt. But it turned out that the Japanese loved the movie and from their point of view, it portrayed the Japanese as polite, honorable people and they were shocked at how it portrayed Americans as a bunch of crude, irresponsible, ill-mannered assholes.

Differences in values and attitudes can run so deep that it's easy to end up judging someone according to a entirely different values than the ones they consider worthwhile.

Hamburgler: Playboy reported on a cologne called "SA for men" ( www.esexualarousal.com ) that supposedly uses scents that are proven to get a girl's juices flowing. From the product's website: "More than foreplay, SA-for Men is a patented combination of odors, clinically-proven to increase vaginal blood flow and elicit sexual arousal for a total body event-heightening all her primal, pure 'animal' senses to evoke the most basic physiological responses. The tingling freshness of citrus scientifically blended with the slightly naughty scent of baby powder and the erotically charged aroma of Good-N-Plenty create the sensual essence of SA-For Men's enticing fragrance - your own invisible aphrodisiac." A poor man's alternative? Stock up on Lysol, trade in the Cool Water for some Johnson&Johnson's, and develop a taste for traditional Pennsylvania Dutch cooking.

David Owen:
> Joseph:
> I was searching the web and came across this site about improving sales (I'm
> in a sales program) and discovered www.superwisdom.com after
> searching thru it a while, I linked to something called the Alexander
> Technique. Have you ever heard of this?

I teach the Alexander Technique in Plymouth UK. It is a way of being able to relax way below the usual plateau of tension that most of us thought of as relaxed. This in turn allows your body to function more efficiently, including restored natural poise and movement. (People often associate it with posture, you stand and move better and LOOK better!) Also it allows your mind to be clearer- and as a friend of mine put it, 'It doesn't half improve the bonking!'. -Could be useful!

www.stat.org.uk is the address for the original main organization in the UK, www.alexandertech.org is the official US one, www.ati-net.com Has some of the best rebels/innovators. or try my site www.david-a-owen.co.uk in about 6 weeks when I've had a chance to update it and put my teaching notes on it. I believe I'm one of the best teachers, having integrated NLP with it.

TGB2001: I recently remembered being on the train to the Rocky Horror Picture Show (RHPS, yeah I L-O-V-E that silly movie because I know about the XTC audience participation can give you - know yer lines) right, on that train there was a crowd of gay folks who shouted Goin' On A Lion Hunt which prepared them for action I suppose. Do you know songs or lyrics or whatever you use to heat up your crowd? I am against the army or scouts because they take away identity from people but shouting with your friends will surely give everyone a kick. Brother, do you have an Idea?