Seduce and Conquer in Puerto Vallarta, Baby!
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Clifford:
Seminar/Vacation Report: Seduce and Conquer in Puerto Vallarta, Baby!
I have always been intrigued by what I have called the "dark side of seduction", the game where being an asshole and a jerk brings surprising results with very attractive women. The community has gotten a lot of flak over every time someone dares to open this Pandora's Box, such as with "negs" which have been greatly criticized by women and the mainstream (who have been given more of a glimpse of this world of late through exposure in things like Style's book The Game). Well Payton Kane (www.seduceandconquer.com/seducewomen) takes the politically incorrect and puts it front and center and has been enjoying great success with his teachings. I have been intrigued by his CD's and from listening to his weekly radio show (which you can listen to and which is saved online on his website) and wanted to explore bringing out my own inner asshole. I have known for awhile that one of my major sticking points has been that I just need to open my mouth more and to add some more passion and enthusiasm to my presentation when talking not only to women but to everyone, and that I am too much of a nice guy. A week of exposure to some of Payton's frenetic energy seemed like a good new direction to improve my game. For those of you unfamiliar with Payton Kane, he's actually been teaching men to be more successful with women for almost 10 years now, but eight of those years have been spent teaching a veritable who's who of celebrities and wealthy individuals how to stop using their money to buy women's attention and affections. A fortuitous initial contact with a wealthy industrialist who became his first client and who then introduced him to about 70 other love-starved philanthropists had started him off on his private practice where he charges thousands for an evening out with him. On January 1, 2004, Payton created Seduce and Conquer and launched his 4 CD set
which outlines in detail his philosophy of how to be a man's man, which leads to being a ladies man, how to win at what he calls the three stages of a relationship with a woman, all laid out in his inimitable manic style. Listening to those CD's you cannot help but be impressed with how packed they are with information, how he hammers out his points relentlessly, all at high speed in a non-stop barrage that aims to smash away at your limiting beliefs of being Mr. Nice Guy. I had been talking with Payton intermittently over the past few months and met up with him for dinner in Toronto the last time I was there. Over a four hour, highly enjoyable evening with him he mentioned his upcoming seminar that was to be held in Cancun and I decided I had to check it out.
I arrive in Toronto by train at Union Station in the heart of downtown and am met by Payton Kane in a white limo with the three other participants in this seminar/vacation now to be held in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico as Cancun had been badly damaged by the hurricanes. The other students are Jack (a tall, well-built Ohio student who has been getting success from using Payton's methods), Mark (aka Marky Mark) a hotel manager from Toronto who also seems to have been getting good results from using what he has learned from Payton over the last three years, and Ryan, a very cool dude from Ottawa who also appears to do well with women. Ryan will demonstrate an uncanny out of the box thinking about almost everything during the coming days. Clearly this is an advanced group, who I discover as time goes on, while they would like to learn appear to be equally interested in simply vacationing with a wild man like Payton who treats himself and his students to only first class treatment. Champagne flows in the limo as we are told that this is a trip of champions and we are going to have one fantastic voyage.
Originally this trip was to have been to Cancun, but due to the hurricanes there had been damage to the hotel we were to go to and the tourist trade seems to have been put on hold while the area rebuilds. We would meet many people in Puerto Vallarta who had to redirect their trips from Cancun as well. Payton was majorly disappointed in not being able to go to Cancun, where he knows his way around (he lived there for 4 years at one point) and where the party scene dwarfs PV.
The flight down was very smooth except that Marky Mark, who is about 5'7 and 120 lbs., consumed a disproportionate amount of alcohol and became a very bad drunk. He was hitting random people, telling everyone to shut up, barely able to walk, hitting himself and being obviously disoriented. From previous experience with the customs' officials in places like Mexico, this behaviour was extremely dangerous to our trip - Mark could easily have been refused entry to the country and put on the next plane back, arrested and held for what is effectively a huge ransom to the authorities to be let free, or otherwise hassled (including holding our whole group responsible for his actions). Fortunately, Payton was able to manoeuvre our way out through customs, through baggage claim, and out of the airport without an incident. In what I learned was his usual style, we took a cab from the airport to our hotel in order to get there before the other people who were on our flight who were all taking the free shuttle bus to the hotel. This permitted Payton to get to the front desk well before anyone else (even though we were the absolute last people that went through customs as we were trying to get Mark to straighten up his act) where some well placed American greenbacks secured the best available rooms in the hotel.
I had asked around to some friends before leaving and the hotel he chose was, I was told, where you wanted to be. It was right in the heart of the hotel district and where there would be the most action. While this turned out to be the busiest hotel in the area, the week started off with mostly couples, families, and older groups and next to no single women to be found randomly wandering about the premises.
We arrived at the hotel around 9 PM and after eating headed out to Carlos O'Brian's which we were told was holding a thong contest that evening (Monday). The contest was about equal to the level of quality in the place, and really nothing to remark about. The place was busy but there was a distinct lack of single women and a distinct plethora of single men. The quality here also left a lot to be desired with the term "skanky" coming to mind a little too frequently. The place reminded me of the Saddle Ranch in Los Angeles, or Sir Winston Churchill's Pub in Montreal. Busy but not with a lot of quality. Regardless, Payton opened up a number of sets and his style is quite different from most of the other PUA's I have seen. He teases women, slightly insults them, dismisses them, and essentially plants seeds of stirred emotions all over the place, expecting to harvest some of them later on. While he did manage to scrounge up a few moderately attractive women, the vibe of the place was just not appetizing and we ended up hoping into a cab and heading over to Zoobar.
This place was also not enjoying one of its stellar evenings, but the quality level was clearly much higher. Payton tipped the doorman and got us into a semi-secluded area as part of his emphatic request to the bar staff to understand that his was a group of VIPs and that we needed to be treated to the best of the house. This would become standard operating procedure and we would be greeted everywhere by staff who recognized us, appreciated the tips, and who were ready to do whatever Payton asked to make us happy (that, I understood, would include having the doormen and bouncers bringing over the most attractive women in the places to our table to join us for drinks).
Near us, and met mostly through proximity comments, were two fairly attractive women and a male friend of theirs. One of the women and the guy were helicopter pilots who, during the season which this wasn't, would conduct aerial tours of the city. They invited us to come back in December when they are flying and they would show us the place when it is really jumping. The second woman, Diana, was a waitress at one of the other bars and the cousin of the female helicopter pilot. There was an attraction between us and I proceeded to ignore her while she played a lot of little games which Payton and I concluded were designed to draw our attention, Which of course I wouldn't give her and this led to Payton remarking to me that not only was she "ready" but she was really checking me out repeatedly during the evening. At one point I sat next to her and used a great line that Brian (The Brian that I interviewed and which should be considered a "must read" - go to my archives and read the Special Edition - Brian Interview now) gave me. I held up my drink to her and said I wanted to make a toast. I said "Here is to one of the most beautiful women I have ever laid eyes on... (at this point she smiled and leaned over to kiss me on the cheek, and then I said)...and to you, too!" She burst out laughing and had to tell this to her cousin and the guy they were with. Later on we spoke for a few minutes but the words were quite secondary as I had my hands all over her in a very intimate yet politically correct manner (eg. I would cup her far cheek with one hand, which I would also move up to run my fingers through her hair and caress her skull) while I spoke into her ear on the other side of her head, and would graze her cheek and ear with my lips as I spoke to her). She was clearly enjoying the tension that I was sparking and caressed her body against me, as well as started to make similar movements all over me when it was her turn to speak. She kissed me goodbye and repeatedly told me where she was going to be the next night.
We ended up back at the hotel around 4 a.m. and I crashed out while the others went for pizza. The next morning we met for breakfast followed by some "seminar" which was held in the water at the pool bar. Payton's actual instruction is, I learned, primarily delivered through demonstration and the dearth of women at the hotel resulted in him saying that we will see most of what he does when we go to Christine's, which is the top nightclub here and which will only be open on Thursday through the weekend. We spent the day at the pool and roaming the beach, negotiating with various beach vendors trying to sell us everything from massages, henna tattoos, freshly broiled and skewered Marlin and shrimp, to jewelry and knock off designer sunglasses.
While most of us went to rest for the evening ahead, Jack was lying by the pool and noticed this young Mexican lady looking at him. He looked away but the next time he caught her eye contact, he smiled and immediately went over to her. He asked her if she had any tanning lotion and after she said yes he held out his hand as if to receive some of it. As she was about to pour he pulled away and her hand ended up next to his back. She got the message and rubbed the lotion into his back, and ending up giving him a massage for a half hour. He eventually sat up and tried to break the Spanish-English barrier but he found he had little to say to her so he said "Come with me" and took her to go to his room. In the elevator he put his hands on both sides of her face and kissed her. She put her hands on his stomach as he was pulling her hair and he guided her hand down further. Once in the room, she started grabbing him and he gently threw her on the bed. She didn't want to have sex (she said tomorrow - obviously not wanting to seem too easy) but gave him a bj.
This was not the end of Jack's adventures for that day. When we had gone through customs in the PV airport, he had approached a group of women and said to them casually, "Hey ladies, what's up?" and didn't get much reaction so he looked away. The next day he saw one of them leaving the pool area and he said "Hey, what's going on?" and she remembered him from the customs line up. When she commented on that, he responded with "Where are you going?" She said she was going back to her room to which he responded, "No you're not, you're going with me to have a drink." She said, "No, I have to go to my room." He said "No you don't, get your ass over here and have a drink with me." After that comment, she came with him. Once they started drinking he sat next to her and put his hand on her leg. He had a few comments that connected, such as when he asked her how old she was and she told him to guess, he got it right. Soon after he started talking with her, he started playing with her hair. At one point he made a joke about how she needs to get him another drink and then right after he reached up, grabbed her hair and pulled it, and gave her a quick kiss on the lips. In the conversation she said something about going to the Jacuzzi so he said "Let's go!" and took her by the arm. She started making excuses, how she can't, she has to get ready for dinner, etc. He said, "What's with you girl, you have a beautiful idea and don't want to go through with it?" Then he said "I understand you have some things to do so let's just finish our drink" and he stood up abruptly as if he was leaving. She said "No, no, sit down, I don't have to go immediately." After that he grabbed her arm and said "Cut the shit, we're going to the hot tub!" On the way there, and in front of the other people at the lobby bar, he told her to shut up three times, but each time he did that he kissed her. Of course when they got into the hot tub, things started to get hot and heavy so he said "it would be nice to take a walk on the beach." Once out there he laid out a towel (it was dark by this time) and did her on the beach (he had been carrying around a condom after what happened with the Mexican girl, so he was prepared).
Jack has been described as being a rank beginner when he first contacted Payton and now is showing great results as well as tremendous promise for the future. That evening, we were at a bar called Hilo and this very attractive 22-23 year old Jennifer Aniston look-alike pretty much threw herself at him. Payton had opened her friend who was sitting at the section of the bar where we were stationed (Payton always arranges with the doormen and staff a section where his party is based) and soon after she was joined by that girl and 3-4 of their other girlfriends. I did a photo routine with one of them and made out with her for a short time but didn't pursue it. It appeared that Jack would be taking her home but her friends dragged her away later in the evening. But her, as well as numerous others that we met during the week, were all informed that Thursday evening we would all be at Christine's, which is known as the hottest nightclub in PV.
Payton was very pleased with Jack's results and kept telling him that "he's done" and saying "and then there were three" referring to the rest of us as his intention is to have all of us closing before the end of the trip.
We didn't go over to the club that the girl I met the night before mentioned (which was De Santos, and which we visited the next night - the place was empty but we were told that the place, which was very classy, is very hot during the weekend) but we did stop in at Club 69 which was the bar that she works at. We stayed there for a little while and she and I played the "ignore" game where we said hello to each other and then pretended not to notice what the other was up to. We ended up leaving there with nothing particularly notable happening.
Wednesday was spent shopping and Payton's experience as an image consultant as well as his being fluent in Spanish and knowledge about how to deal with Mexican vendors was invaluable. I ended up buying several items that I was very happy to get, as did most of the others. In each place negotiations were very productive and significant discounts were had by holding out for a fair price. That evening we ate in the hotel restaurant that required reservations (the trip was an all inclusive deal which includes all meals, all drinks until 1 a.m., and all expenses relating to transport to and from the clubs, club entry fees, etc.) and it was here that Payton continued to explain a lot about his methods and strategies.
Payton believes his methods will never truly become mainstream because he is pretty hard core. While other methods debate the pros and cons of "negs", Payton goes quite a bit further. His method could be described as about 60% asshole where he treats women the way hot women treat men. He will tease them, gently insult them ("I like that top you are wearing, did your grandmother pick it out for you?"), let them know that they should only be so lucky to go out with a guy like him, dismiss them (one of his favourite moves is to turn away and flip his fingers in a 'go away' sort of manner to them), tell them "I don't think so" if they get a little too friendly, and alternate this with what he calls "smooth seduction" which he fractionates in a forward and backward pattern.
Payton had planned to take this night off as he felt that he needed to take at least one night off from the late night partying and drinking but three Red Bulls charged him up and he was raring to go. We headed back to Zoo bar which was a sausage fest when we first got there but a little later in the evening the energy changed and things started happening. I had been strangely immobile for most of the trip and I decided to just get moving and started opening up a number of sets. I opened up this very attractive Latino girl who was there with two also very attractive friends, all of whom worked at the Rio hotel. I was getting a lot of serious interest from her but at one point instinct told me to escalate but my cautious nature (which has caused me a lot of missed opportunities in the past) had me hold off and soon after she excused herself to go speak with some friends and, of course, that was the end of that. Ryan (nicknamed Rhino by now) came over met one of her friends, and ended up making out with her for most of the night. Payton started up with an attractive girl at the bar and she was totally in to him, at one point pulling his zipper down! He was pulling her hair, teasing her, pushing her away and pulling her back in, touching her everywhere and she was extremely receptive. He lost the set because her friend came by and her friend was into Payton also and ended up cockblocking him because she wanted him for herself. Mark also ended up making out with a girl that evening. I started up with a girl who was going home to Seattle the next day named Selina. She was very attractive and was all over me - the lasted about 20 minutes and when I told her let's go over to another part of the bar (I was intending to sit down with her in a more isolated section) she said she just wanted to tell her friends something and that was the end of that as she ended up not returning. Payton advised me that the next time things are going like that and the girl says she just wants to tell her friends or leave for some other reason (probably other than use the bathroom), to tell her "If you go, sweetheart, do me a favour and don't come back." Always do to them first what they are going to do to you.
We ended the evening around 5 a.m. with plans to hit Christine's the next night and De Santos on Friday or Saturday evening.
Thursday was Thanksgiving in the U.S. and the effect at the hotel was clearly an influx of new guests. It seemed that there would be a lot of people in for the holiday weekend which would be a welcome change. While we were managing to find a few sets, the quantity and the quality were, for the most part, leaving much to be desired. Payton's voice was mostly gone Thursday and we pretty much took it easy around the pool for most of the day. We met up at 9 p.m. in the hotel lobby bar and again ate at the better restaurant in the hotel where Payton shared a lot of talk on the game. Payton's main points are to treat women the way they have always been treating us, to turn the tables on them, tease them, lower their value while making sure they know that you consider yourself to be above them, that they "should only be so lucky" to have a chance with a guy like you. The message keeps being installed through informal talks and watching him in almost everything he does.
Payton was excited that we were finally going to Christine's, which is reputed to be the hot spot in PV, and he had been there previously and knew the place. While Christine's was a pretty good club with great energy, this was a totally off night for that place. We had told most of the women we had met throughout the trip that we would be there tonight, but none of them showed up and the place was completely coupled up. Payton does not typically meet women in clubs by the usual PUA approach and opening up mixed sets and extracting women from them isn't quite his style. For himself, these days he mainly will create a buzz in the place he is in and then reel in the curious who watch the flickering of his flames. For example, when we arrived at Christine's he immediately starts talking to the doormen, wanting to meet the manager and letting them know that if "they take care of him, he will take care of them" and that he wants a great section for his VIP guests, and that they want to start with a bottle of scotch. We are led by the staff to what we are told is the best booth in the place, an elevated maybe 30-50 square foot platform that overlooks the dance floor which is prominently exposed to the entire club. Payton spent most of the next couple of hours dancing over the dance floor and making eye contact with the various women all over the club while it filled up. It was clear that his plan has the desired effect - we noticed a lot of women checking us out with a "who are these guys?" look on their faces. Payton's eye contact involves making that contact, and then being the one to break it which he feels intrigues the women - this being contrary to most eye contact theory which says that you hold that contact and she should be the one who breaks it. He will make that eye contact again with the women and smile and if the response is receptive, he'll hold up his hand and beckon them to come and join him. If they retreat he'll make a motion as if he's blowing them off and back turn them. Tonight a woman who was dancing with her group in a similar booth kept staring and smiling at him but when Payton motioned for her to come over, she mouthed that she couldn't because she was with her boyfriend, but somehow got the message for him to meet her at the bathroom entrance in a few minutes. He went over there and she came up to him, didn't say a word and grabbed him, started making out with him, grabbed his ass, and just as quickly broke the embrace and scooted off into the ladies' room. As a general rule, Payton doesn't approach for himself anymore because he says that "indifference gets you laid" and he really doesn't care whether he does or he doesn't. He goes out to have a good time and help his students, so his methods of meeting women are quite different from the usual PUA tactics. He is a strong critic of "pick up lines" and advocates making an observation about a woman as the way to start a conversation, which should be followed by teasing her. An example happened earlier in the day when Mark stopped a young lady walking by our poolside chaise lounges where he said to her "You call that a bathing suit?" You could see she was immediately shocked and thrilled by the remark. Even though we had by now two bottles of scotch invested in Christine's, we ended up leaving for the area where Zoo Bar and Hilo are around 2:30 a.m. Payton had befriended the doorman/manager at Zoo Bar and we were immediately escorted in and brought to a reserved section. A little too quickly a bucket of Corona's were ordered and we soon after realized that the place wasn't really happening either. Payton and I walked over to Hilo where we ran into the girl that Jack had made out with along with her group of friends from Dallas and we talked them into coming back with us to Zoo Bar. The one that I had briefly kissed had hooked up with some new guy that evening and he and his friends tagged along, as did the cute but slightly chubby leader who, it turned out, was celebrating her 24th birthday that night. While she teased a few of us (at one point she was sitting on Payton's lap and started grabbing my leg and working her way up to my crotch - I kept removing her hand, telling her this stuff's not free and to keep her hands off the merchandise but she kept at it until I stood up and moved away), Mark later told us all to our surprise that he had briefly made out with her three times that evening. I used a great line that I got from Style on her when we were back at Zoo Bar and told her that she owed me $80. She asked what for and I told her "for making her look good in front of her friends!" Jack's girl dropped the guy she had been talking with when he showed up and they resumed their making out throughout the rest of the night - towards the end, Jack extracted her and went across the street to the beach and, if not for a police officer trying to have them pay him to not arrest them for fooling around on the beach, would have closed the deal. The episode with the police officer was quite dangerous but Jack cooly refused to let him push him around and got back to the bar without giving in to the officer's threatening behaviour. But, of course, that ruined the close (Jack was not to be denied that night, however, as when we got back to the hotel at 5 a.m. he knocked on the door of the woman he had closed earlier in the week, woke her up, and gave her the benefit of what the other woman had aroused). The waitress from 69 bar was there also that night, talking with her brother and another friend and I told her we would be at De Santos the next night and she said she will be there.
Friday was spent hanging around the pool and at the snack bar where Payton ended up giving us a mini-seminar in stripper theory. I have heard a lot of guys talk about how they get strippers, but strippers are Payton's specialty and it is absolutely clear that he is spectacular at getting them and probably the best I have heard. This is the kind of woman who responds best to the hard core seduce and conquer method, and Payton hits them with all he's got. This talk was bursting with great information and a clear explanation of his mastery in this area. He has a more holistic approach than a targeted one as most others do, where he creates his own atmosphere around him and busts the balls of all the strippers that come into contact with him. They aren't going anywhere and he will dismiss them, insult them, criticize and tease them so that they all know him soon enough in a place. One critical move that follows what he does in regular clubs is that he will prepare the staff for his appearance - for example, before he goes out to the strip club he would call it up, find out who the owners and the managers are (if they will tell him) and go and see them. He'll let them know he works hard and wants to come for a drink with a view. He makes sure that he gets his usual VIP treatment and will have a great table with drinks when he goes. He basically assures himself that the senior staff know that while he may be hard on the strippers, he doesn't touch any of them (he makes it very clear he will never order a lap dance) and the extent of his being an asshole only goes as far as a few harsh words. This prevents him from running into problems from the dancers who inevitably will complain to the managers about him when he insults them (often they will complain for very minor things he may have said - which I actually saw happen at one of the regular clubs here in PV with one of the waitresses - complaints that are really unjustified but it comes down to your word against theirs and if you haven't set the groundwork you can be thrown out). Strippers will lie to the managers saying that you did things that you haven't done, so having them on your side is key. The goal is to be untouchable, and the girls learn to live with him being the way he is and ultimately, like that sign that says wet paint on it that you shouldn't touch, end up giving in to their curiosity. Another great bit has to do with telling the girl that he'll give her a lift home - if she's up for it, he then tells her that he will wait 15 minutes outside for her. But that is 15 minutes, not 16 minutes, and in 16 minutes he is gone. This reminded me of another great move of his when getting a girl's phone number - he tells her, "Listen, babydoll, I am going to call you once, and if you don't answer the phone I will leave a message. If you don't call me back soon after, you will never hear from me again. You only get one chance with me." This last one upped his conversion rate on phone numbers through the roof. One thing I am learning that should be obvious as you read this is that Payton is all about attitude - we hate it when women give it to us, but they love it when we give it to them.
There was so much explained that I couldn't go into all of it here, but a few sound bites immediately come to mind. When approached for a lap dance, he will tell a girl no, that "she should only be so lucky to be privileged to get naked in front of him," that she should pay him to watch her (or to have him dance for her - he has had strippers take him up on that offer and offer to pay him and take him back to a private booth; once there, however, he would just grab them and start making out with them). Another great one was when he'd be talking with one woman and another one would walk by and he would follow the other one with his eyes. The one he was talking to would get upset and say something to the effect of "Hey, you're talking to me" to which he would reply "Yeah, but I'm not enjoying myself, or, "yeah but you're depressing me" and just keep demonstrating how he has higher value than she does in the situation. No matter how hot the woman is he'll criticize her ("How did you get a job here, don't they have standards in this place?" and "Man, I can see you have a lot of work to do" when commenting on her appearance. She will usually want to know what he means and he will tell her to call his secretary and make an appointment and that he charges $500 an hour for image consulting.) Seduction, as Payton says, is all about power and control.
Friday night was to be all about De Santos, a very cool looking bar/restaurant that we had heard about from a few people. We head out there at about 11:30 p.m. but there's not much happening so we head back to Zoo Bar and Hilo. The reception at Zoo Bar from the staff is so warm that it is clear that this is going to be our place for the trip. While we did a number of approaches, this was a night where all of us were feeling drained from having gone out every night since we had been here and then basking in the sun during the day. The energy level was fairly low and I don't remember any memorable episodes to report on.
Saturday we went out again to the shopping district. Everyone found some great buys in either clothing or jewelry and we left some serious U.S. dollars behind. Afterwards, we returned to the hotel for more sun and informal "seminar" with Payton around the pool. Little did I know that that night would impart the starting of a breakthrough for me.
As this was the big night of the week, I pulled out my best outfit - a shiny black player shirt along with clear light blue shades that Payton and the others flipped out about. Payton said that I can't go out like that and not follow it up with the right attitude - the clothes scream "asshole" and I need to live up to the path I was paving. Rhino had nicknamed me "The Griffin" for some reason on this trip and all the talk was about The Griffin this evening. We decided to head back to Christine's and give it a second chance as it did have the reputation of being the best place. We roll in like celebrities, our troupe a force to be noticed and we are brought to the same prime booth as last time. Payton proceeds to order a bottle of scotch and we are frequently raising our glasses to a "night of champions" and making numerous alpha male gestures, high fives, & African American style handshakes. The place started off fairly slow again, but it was clear the female to male ratio was better than anywhere else we had been on that trip. Payton opened a group of three Columbian women with "Ladies! How are you this evening? Where are you from?" and "Aren't you lucky to meet the most attractive man in this place tonight!"
He soon brings the three of them over and the most attractive of the three immediately zooms in on me. Pretty much elbowing Payton aside she comes up and wants to meet me. He had told them he was from New York (he was from there years ago) and she asked him if I was also from NY to which he replied "Him? He's from Montreal, he owns that place!" Which must have raised her interest level although I wasn't aware that he told that to her. The "You have no idea of who you are dealing with here and how lucky you are to be talking to us" framework was not only in our attitudes but directly said to these girls and they were eating it up. Two of them, the sister of the one that went after me and their friend, spoke very little English but the one I was talking to lives in San Francisco so she was fluent in English. I had a little trouble getting her name right (I ended the questioning about this still unsure if it was Sanda or Zanda) so I told her I was still not sure what it was so I will call her "Baby" and she said "that works!" Payton pulled me aside several times to tell me to be more of an asshole with her and it was great experience to have him there as I tried different things on her, all of which only served to up her attraction to me. I was touching her all over as I talked (usually in a borderline politically correct manner, such as cupping her face so that I could guide her head while I talked into her ear). I started running my fingers through her hair and at one point a photo was taken and apparently I was pulling her hair when it was shot, but the shot came out with her head down and one arm up. So I negged her with, "what is this? Why were you smelling your armpit when we were taking pictures?" and she said that she wasn't that I had been pulling her hair. She asked me "You like pulling my hair?" and I said "yes" and then she asked why. So I told her that in the animal kingdom when the lion mates with the lioness he takes her by the mane, and she just loved that. So did the guys when I told them after that I said that. I surprised myself several times with my telling her about my value in the situation, as in "Now you are having your best night since getting here because you met us." The attitude, "you are so lucky to be talking to me" was starting to permeate my thoughts and behaviour. It was clear that the more ego I showed her, the more she smiled and liked it. She said at one point that she was sure she was going to have a sore throat in the morning because she was smoking and drinking (actually I forget exactly the reason) so I took her head in my hands, looked her straight in the eyes, and told her that tomorrow, when she wakes up in bed, she's going to think of this moment, with me looking right into her eyes, and she's going to remember that I told her that she was not going to have a sore throat. She then asked me "well, what if I still wake up tomorrow and I have a sore throat?" Then I said, "Well, then you'll turn over and tell me you still have a sore throat and I'll see what we can do about that!" She told me several times, with a huge smile, that I am such a bad boy. Another thing I did (kudos to Bishop for this old one) was every time she would make a remark to the effect of "why do you think I would like that?" when it had to do with some egotistical remark I would have made to her, I would say "You seemed like an intelligent woman!"
She was there despite having broken her leg which was in a cast under her jeans (it was quite remarkable, because if you looked at her legs the jeans looked slim yet I touched her leg and it was in a solid cast underneath) as she said she had fallen off a horse. The friend, however, told one of us that she had been injured in a terrorist attack. But because of this she was quite immobile - I would have liked to move her on to the dance floor and/or isolate her from the group and make out with her, but she literally had to be lifted up and down the platform we were on.
At around 4 a.m., myself and the three women walked from the platform towards the exit, stopping at the bar which was just before the hallway to the exit. She kissed me good bye and gave me her email address in order to send her copies of the photos I took. I told her that she would have to invite me to see her in San Francisco which she enthusiastically said she would when she returns from Bogota, to which she was going directly from PV. It turned out that none of the women said good bye to any of the other guys except me (which surprised me because Ryan kissed the sister a few times and they had gotten along well with all of us, especially Payton who they complimented to me during the evening). I couldn't figure out how to escalate the situation - I didn't get the right vibe about making out with her so I just kept the tension sizzling by continually touching and teasing. I didn't see her leaving her sister and long time friend to go home with me - this was just not going to happen is how I read the situation. So that is how it ended. Around 4:30 a.m. we walked back to the hotel which was not that far from Christine's. We walked past a pick up truck that backed into a cement sidewalk edge (hard to exactly explain as the roads are somewhat different there than in North American cities and this was a large block of cement that was probably knee-high) which was filled with Mexicans - there was a police car nearby with their lights flashing and between the two vehicles we thought at least one of them was going to cause us trouble which fortunately did not happen. We arrive back at the hotel around 4:40 a.m. and, led by Rhino, we hopped in a cab and went all the way back out to Zoo Bar which was still very busy. In the end, however, not much happened at Zoo Bar but we left and walked about 10 blocks around 5:45 a.m. to an all night taco stand. Payton was plastered, having ordered two bottles of scotch at Christine's and a bucket of Coronas at Zoo Bar. This was the first time I saw him wasted, despite having consumed prodigious amounts of alcohol on each of the other nights. The guys were hungry and there is very little that is open at that hour. We made it over to the taco stand and the jokes about Montezuma's Revenge were continuous. I wasn't hungry and I was also very leery about eating from a run down taco stand in Mexico (we've all heard about the dangers inherent in eating the wrong things over there) so I passed but the other guys raved about how these were the best tacos they ever ate and the four of them devoured 33 of them at 7:00 a.m. Sunday morning. We finally returned to the hotel around 7:30 a.m. and we, again led by Ryan, went over to the breakfast buffet which opened at 7 a.m. We ate breakfast and I finally went back to my room a little past 8 a.m. I managed to sleep until about noon and when I went back out there, I found Payton and Ryan at the snack bar (where they pretty much only serve burgers and hot dogs). It turned out that they never went back to their rooms and had been there all morning. I joined them while Payton polished off a "triple" (yes, three patties) and Ryan held in a massive bowel movement (or so we were told) while he took more notes on what Payton was telling us. One thing we talked about was how Payton has a great passion for what he does and how he gets a great thrill out of seeing his students succeed. It is clear he finds what he does very rewarding and that he truly cares that his students succeed, in fact probably more than any other PUA guru that I have seen. He encourages his students (those, of course, who have purchased his ultimate package and are entitled to do so) to call him and he personally counsels them on the phone.
Sunday evening started off with dinner with Payton and another impromptu seminar at the table. Much of what Payton goes over are details filling in a lot of specifics relating to his seduce and conquer framework which is presented in his CD's. To PUA's familiar with the relatively consistent community advice, his theories may seem counter-productive. For example, his advice on the first date appears to be very mainstream on first listen. However, this is all part of a very elaborate master plan to have her fall in love with you and be completely under your control. I can't go in to all the details of how this works, but to give you a basic idea the first date (which, it is important to note, he recommends that you reserve for only those women that you feel truly deserve such an effort) - there are very few that Payton will give this privilege to now, but still insists that he closes on 7 out of 10 of his first dates, and he will close the remaining ones who he didn't close on the first date shortly afterwards. His first date is designed to fulfill a woman's fantasy of what a great date is supposed to be - he takes control, orders for her at dinner, tells her to wear an evening gown (or if she doesn't have one, must look absolutely spectacular for him as he has a reputation to maintain and if she wants to be with him she has to get with the program). Payton says that the first date must include alcohol - stay away from coffee dates, movies, etc. and either take her for drinks or the full out dinner date. When you are at your destination, you must during that phase, kiss her. There is nothing more awkward and uncomfortable for both of you than that end of the date moment. Among other gems of advice I got from him was about age - he will usually ask a woman how old she is in the third or fourth question he asks her. If she was not born in the 80's he will tell her that he's sorry, but she's too old for him and let her fight to meet up to this challenge as he starts ending the meet or the date as the case may be (keep in mind that Payton's dates are all very hot attractive women who are not used to this kind of treatment). He will after some prompting say, well, maybe he'll consider making an exception if she sounds interesting enough. If she was born in the 80's, he will typically tell her his age to be anywhere from 3-10 years older depending on his read of the situation.
This brings up one of the criticisms I had about his methods as he advocates lying to women about certain things. I mentioned this to him (mostly because I am aware of others who date multiple women and are completely honest with them about this and this works if you know how to present what you say - so, to me, he could accomplish the same things without the dishonesty). He was glad I raised this point because he said that while he could be honest with them, when you do that they are basically free themselves to date multiple guys which he believes they are doing anyway. Payton clearly doesn't believe women and says explicitly that they are bigger players than men, they are much better at the game than we are, and that they are bigger liars. Secondly, if he's caught or the situation warrants it, he will tell them the truth with a "who cares what they think anyway" attitude which typically intrigues them even more. An example of this is with one girlfriend he has who brings women for threesomes is that there is supposedly a rule that he's not supposed to kiss the other woman. Of course, Payton will always break that rule which pisses the girlfriend off but she continues to bring new women afterwards. The truth of it all, which he agreed with me about, is that their whole "monogamy" game is most of the time just a means to try and control you but has no basis in reality. Women are all attracted to the guys who are popular, the guys who have all the women. The old expression, "a man is free when he is single and a woman is free when she is married" comes to mind - Payton points out that if you listen to 99% of the songs on the radio they are about some woman who's broken some guy's heart, cheated on him, left him, etc. but rarely are there any songs the other way around. Men are the nice guys who are being abused and seduce and conquer is the way to turn the tables and empower yourself, to improve yourself and live life to the fullest. Seduce and conquer is not only about having all the women you want wrapped around your little finger, it is about changing your life to see the possibilities that escape most men in all aspects of their lives by living with supreme confidence and constantly striving for the best in everything that you do.
After dinner, we headed out to Hilo where there was $30 all you can drink cover charge per person. However, when we got there, the doormen welcomed us in "no charge" for all of us as we are buddies with the guy over at Zoo Bar. Obviously, our VIP status was starting to pay dividends and who knows what other benefits would have accrued had we stayed longer. Hilo was pretty busy, but continuing a theme that has plagued us since we arrived, there were very few single women - women were all with guys or in groups with guys. I opened an attractive Latino but she replied that "no habla englese" and another one (who Payton saw me open and claimed that her body language and smiling were very receptive) to me had nothing to say in a manner which made me think she was just going through the motions of being polite. I asked her if she was always this much fun, then ended it by saying (and voice tone and facial expressions are very key parts of this) "well nice to meet you, buh-bye!" as I started on that path of always leaving them with some strong impression of you. Usually it is women who blow you off - Payton's way is make sure they don't forget you (which can be a very polite exit, it all depends on the situation. Here I was feeling she was playing uninterested with me so I wanted to be the one to end it and leave her sitting there feeling like a doofus instead of me walking away feeling like she had something I wanted and that I wasn't going to get it). We left Hilo after awhile and headed over to Zoo Bar where Jack's girl was there with her friends. She was mad at him (and called him an asshole when they ran into each other in the hotel elevator earlier in the day) because she told him to come to her room - understood to be for a booty call - when he got back in from his night out the night before but he was tired and just went to sleep instead. Again, however, nothing much was happening at Zoo Bar so we ended up, at about 3 a.m. walking quite aways to hop in a cab to go to Hysteria, a strip joint. Payton prepared us that a strip joint in Mexico is basically a whore house and not like what we see in Canada. However, the place did look very similar to what I had seen before in Canada and Payton remarked that this was a pretty tame place. When we walked in, one of the girls there practically attacked Payton, kissing him and being very excited to see him. I had opened this girl at Zoo Bar a few nights earlier but she seemed to connect with Payton and they had spent some time talking. It turned out that she was a stripper and we just happened to stumble into the place where she was working. She was with another friend who was also very warm in her welcome to us and they told us to come sit with them later on. We were placed in a corner booth - it was just four of us as Jack was tired and low on cash and decided to return to the hotel. As we were sitting, a girl in a black cocktail dress (who we also had met briefly at Zoo Bar with the other girl) came in and proceeded to immediately sit on Rhino's lap. Rhino was doing a lot of what he had learned this week and kept pushing her away. Payton told me when she left briefly that she had complained to him that she wanted to sleep with Rhino but that he had his nose in the air. In any event, the first girl came back a little later on and started grinding on Payton, making out with him, and postioning herself in some very compromising postures in front of him. (It should be noted that there was never any question of any money being paid, drinks being bought, or anything of that nature happening between these girls and Payton and Rhino). Later on, Payton would remark that Rhino played the situation as good as he would have done it himself. At 4:30 a.m. I decided I had enough so I left them and hopped in a cab. It really looked like they were going to have a foursome but the next day it turned out that Payton's girl had promised to see some friends at another place (an after hours place we had heard about that was open until 11 a.m.) and Payton just blew her off after that. Rhino's girl was all over him, making out with him, grinding on him, etc. and then at one point, inexplicably, just stood up, went into the back, got dressed and left. It was like it was lost in the overtime, and in the end nothing happened.
Monday arrived with the sad realization that the week was over and that we would soon be leaving PV for the flight home. Again we took a cab to the airport which resulted in us being in line at the airport in front of the huge contingent that arrived after us on the complementary shuttle bus. While waiting in the gate area at one of the restaurants, Payton answered more questions which again clarified a lot of his theories as outlined on his CD's. Rhino and Mark were again making furious notes. Payton awarded Jack the "MVP Award" (3 girls in one day was the best performance of the trip by far), and said I get the "Most Improved Award." He outlined one of his favourite lines: "I love a woman who knows what she wants and knows how to
get it." It is very important to deliver this line with power and strong eye contact. He explained that his next major product is going to be Seduce and Conquer 2.0 which will be filled with advanced material, and which he will want anyone buying to have his main CD's first. The advanced material will include powerful confidence moves, such as how he often will enter a hot, popular club and very loudly announce "Ladies and Gentlemen, let the party begin Payton Kane has arrived!" and similar broad, powerful moves designed to establish your higher value and attract attention to you - and let the women wonder who is that guy and convey that they should only be so lucky to meet him and spend some time with someone like him.
Payton had caught a cold on this trip and was at his sickest for the flight home. The flight was smooth and uneventful (although Rhino thought it would be funny to slip a piece of gum into Payton's mouth as he dozed, an opinion Payton did not share) and we soon found ourselves back in Toronto with reality of this trip's finality becoming more and more imminent. I was returning from Union Station by train so I took a cab back alone with Payton and we talked about his thoughts on the trip. He was very thrilled to see the changes that I had undergone from the beginning of the trip to the last days and told me that I would see my state go up and down as things get integrated. He said, again, that getting an understanding of what he teaches usually happens pretty quickly and once it does you have to never go back to the old way - life is so full of great experiences and so much more enjoyable this way but you have to keep your state. You come to understand the frame and filter all your responses back to women from this perspective, which compounds your own self confidence. By following the being a man's man principles you will live life large and everyone will respect you and seek you out. By being a ladies man and giving women attitude which they love and respond to, you will have all the women wanting you. Your life will become the kind of experience most people dream of but never achieve. And he gets his greatest satisfaction by helping good guys turn their lives around to share in this fantastic potential. He mentioned how he has some of his private clients who have exceeded his game and will go out with him and tell him that they "will show him how it's done!" He believes that all men have this potential within them, those that make the effort to improve themselves should be congratulated and he thinks there is nothing you can do that is better than to try and improve yourself. His method, as he says, does not involve using pick up lines, routines, hypnosis, etc. but is in sparking the attitude and perspective of power and supreme self confidence that will draw everyone around you to you. He breaks down the game into three phases - meeting and attracting her, after you've slept with her, and getting into a relationship with her. And for each of these phases he has a very well thought out (and devious) game plan which challenges women and gets them chasing you. Listening to his CD's after spending a week with him makes you notice a lot of subtle things that, even though you may have heard them before, hit you in a new way. His CD's are so packed with information you cannot help but pick up a wide range of ideas, and his eagerness to answer your questions, to guide you to success and have each and every one of his students succeed, make his product stand out and is cheap at the price. Highly recommended.
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PROMOS & REVIEWS SECTION (there are NO paid ads in this list and never have been. The "commercial" section is distinguished by the "--------------" separators):
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LAIR SECTION (Lairs are gatherings of PUA's of differing levels and talents that meet in different cities to discuss their experiences and to work together to improve their success with women). More Lair Listings can be found at dutchseduction.blogspot.com/ and at www.bristollair.com, as well as at www.seductionlair.com:
A YAHOO GROUP FOR THOSE RUNNING LAIRS:
If and ONLY if you are running a lair there is now a Yahoo Group for organization ideas for PUA groups. As each lair is different, this group lets us know what other lairs are doing. No seduction related topics are discussed, just organization ideas. To join please email RunningaPUAgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and then email Nightlife at nightlife858@yahoo.com with an intro of who you are and what Lair you are running. You can also go to: groups.yahoo.com/RunningaPUAgroup/
HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE MONTREAL LAIR:
- Sunday December 11 at 8 pm is the next Lair meeting. For more info on joining the Lair (local only, sorry), email me. Out of town bros are welcome to drop in to meetings.
The Lair meetings are very insightful gatherings of guys interested in learning, improving, and helping others to become more successful in their relationships with women. If you are already in a relationship, and you continue to read these emails, you should realize that there is information here to improve and enhance your existing relationship - not only to create new ones.
Here is a list of other Lairs around the world (if you know of any others, please let me know):
MONTREAL JUNIOR LAIR FOUNDED!
Montreal Junior Lair: The Montreal X-Lair has been founded to help minors (who are not permitted to join the Montreal Lair until they are 18) get together and communicate. Lair applications would be sent to MontrealXLair@hotmail.com.
THE TORONTO LAIR
The Greater Toronto Area Lair Goes by the acronym for TOronto PUAS (TOPS) and has been going from success to success lately. There have been great talks by local PUAs who are regulars on Clifford's list, great outings, and membership continues to grow.
TOPs is open to men (and women) at all levels from Beginner to PickUp Artist. Just come with a desire to learn, a willingness to share what you know - and a commitment to test what you learn in the real world.
To join the Lair, send a request to: TO_Lair-owner@yahoogroups.com
If you have questions, you can contact the TOPS President, Smooth (cdnglenn@yahoo.ca) or TOPS Webmaster, Pluvio (pluvio69@yahoo.com)
NEW LAIR FORMING IN RICHMOND, VIRGINIA
Hi, I'm starting a lair in Richmond, Virginia, the state capitol with a rather big scene. Currently all gamers in Richmond are forced to go up to DC, or down to North Carolina if they wish to attend a lair meeting. I would like to keep that experience at home, as we have many beautiful women in this wonderful city. Send an email to miikey723@yahoo.com if you wish to join.
EUROPE LAIR FOUNDED
Red Priest has founded the Europe Lair. You can find the description here:
http//groups.yahoo.com/group/europelair/
ISRAEL LAIR:
Fr the Israel Lair, Tironut 69, go to www.tironut69.com/"> www.tironut69.com
DUNEDIN, NEW ZEALAND LAIR FORMING
For all you Otago students (or campus orbiters) who think you got game! This will be the southernmost lair in the world. Run by an RAFC with a fair bit of bookwork and small experience- any skill level you want, just prepared to approach, talk and try out new stuff. Email me at beest.goes.roar@gmail.com, and will see if we can't get a local lair started. it's time to bring the game to the deep south!
WELLINGTON, NEW ZEALAND LAIR:
A new lair is starting up in Wellington, NZ. Primary focus will be regularly going out and working in the field. Anybody who wants to join constructive, like-minded people in persuingthe PUA lifestyle; email Matt on moxyfmac@gmail.com
TAMPA BAY AND ST. PETE, FLORIDA:
We started a new Lair in the Tampa Bay area. All styles welcome. e-mail us at paradigmaman@yahoo.com
NEW LAIR FORMING IN GENEVA
We want to create a Lair in Geneva, Switzerland. It would be open to French and English speaking people living in Geneva and neighbouring cities like Lausanne and France as well willing to meet and seduce women. All skill levels and ages are accepted. The main task of the Lair will be field experiences on a regular basis. Contact Julien at : Julien72@bluewin.ch
NEW GROUP FOR CHICAGO
Chicago Wingman Meetup Group which currently holds meetings on the first Saturday of every month at 3:00 pm, the place will be disclosed to members once they sign up for the group. The website address is wingman.meetup.com/18/ - this group is combining with the Chicago Lair, whose contact was Eric at theprogen2003@yahoo.com Since they've just starting to hold meetings, they have a flexible format but as they get more organized they plan to have guest speakers. Anyone who knows a local PUA (not self proclaimed) is encouraged to invite him/ her over to share ideas. Please post all org issues under www.fastseduction.com/cities/Chicago
NEW LAIR FOR EDMONTON
*The Mastermind* The Mastermind is a highly exclusive Pick Up Artist Lair. Based out of Edmonton, Canada we assist guys who are serious and motivated to improve their Pick Up Artist game. We’re located at groups.yahoo.com/group/edpualair/ You can also email: manofadventure@jasons-world.com
SAN RAFAEL, CALIFORNIA
The Seduction Lair is up and running in San Rafael, California. Contact activte@aol.com for more information.
PARIS PICK UP CLUB
Formed by a group of FRIENDLY motivated guys from all nationalities with some solid game. The Paris Pick Up Club (PPC) is where all the PUA's and RAFC's BROTHERS living in Paris can share experiences, wing with different people and practice techniques. The goal is to IMPROVE our GAME while having lots of FUN. Since the purpose of the PPC is to practice, in order to join, future members must be available to SARGE regularly. Contact alfaztec@yahoo.com
SALT LAKE AREA SEDUCTION LAIR
We are an expanding group of guys that are into the material by David DeAngelo and his Dating Gurus, of DYD. And we want to use this group to get/give advice, to share experiences and the results. And to meet up with other guys, so we can go out and work on our game together. A group that is more than just pick up lines, but wants to challenge their inner/outter game, etc... For info, contact LOVEStobeHATED@aol.com
BELGIUM: NL Lounge at dutchseduction.com/"> DutchSeduction.com
An independent platform for the phenomenon known as "seduction" in the Dutch language with members in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, Belgium and points beyond. Founded in 1999, we are one of the first international groups dedicated to seduction. Our purpose is to help members meet one another and share information and experience. Write to passie at passie@gmail.com Visit our Website: www.dutchseduction.com/"> www.DutchSeduction.com
NETHERLANDS: NL Lounge at dutchseduction.com/"> DutchSeduction.com An independent platform for the phenomenon known as "seduction" in the Dutch language with members in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, Belgium and points beyond. Founded in 1999, we are one of the first international groups dedicated to seduction. Our purpose is to help members meet one another and share information and experience. Write to passie at passie@gmail.com Visit our Website: www.dutchseduction.com/"> www.DutchSeduction.com
NEW LAIR IN NEW ORLEANS
There is a new Lair in New Orleans and here is the info:
groups.yahoo.com/group/NewOrleansPlayers/ - MIKEALW@HOTMAIL.COM.
Description: This group is for guys in the New Orleans area who are studying the Double your Dating material by David DeAngelo. This group is to get and give advice, to share your experiences and results, and to hook up with other guys so you can go out and work on your game together. Anyone in the New Orleans area is welcome from inexperienced to PUA's.
NEW LAIR IN SINGAPORE
The Singapore Lair is a community for guys interested in improving their skills in meeting and attracting/seducing women. This group is mainly for guys who live in or travel to Singapore, although PUAs from other countries are also welcome. Membership is restricted to doers only -- you must be in the field and have real field experience. No armchair theorists allowed. To join this group, email singaporelair-owner@yahoogroups.com with your name, background and experience.
NEW DALLAS LAIR FORMED
Dimitry has started the Dallas Wingman Meetup Group, a Dallas-Metro Seduction Lair
Website: wingman.meetup.com/6/
HUNGARIAN LAIR FORMING
Hungarian Lair (Budapest) invites all visiting and local people for a great time of sarging in Budapest clubs and streets. We field test MM, SS, RSD, Maniac Plan and various other stuff. Contact us at redpriest_hu@yahoo.com!"
NEW LAIR FORMING IN ITALY:
Our goal is to have a lot of FUN! Why did we create a Lair? To keep in touch with each other and to rock the Italian scene, we want to live like rockstars since we know we DESERVE IT. We have had enough of all the boring guys and loser boyfriends out there that are making women's lives a nightmare when they are waiting for US, the playboys. Join us and we will share with you a lot of secrets that you need to know to totally transform your life life and get more choice not only in life but with every relationship. In order to learn you must be willing to go out with us and try new stuff asking to yourself: "What is possible? What if I get the results I only dreamed of and then even more than that?" Send an email at italy_lair@yahoo.com to join.
NEW LAIR FORMED IN NORWICH (UK):
The Norwich lair has been setup for RAFC and PUAs from East Anglia (UK) who wish to go sarging in in Norwich City Centre. The group is open to everyone who is serious about fieldwork in the Norwich area, and membership is free of charge. Norwich is about 2 hours from London by train. To join the listsend an email to norwichlair-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.
OHIO LAIR FORMED:
An Ohio Lair has just been created for ASFers located in Ohio. I'm hoping to have regular sarging meetings at different cities in Ohio and regular guest speakers. Any ASFer in Ohio who is interested in joining please email me an intro of yourself to philonous03@yahoo.com.
VIRGINIA/CAROLINA LAIR GROUP
The VAC (Virginia Carolina) Lair is a community for Virginia and Carolina area PUAs to talk about the game, make friends in the community, and meet up with wings in the area. Current members are located in the Charlotte, Blacksburg/Radford, and Raleigh/Chapel Hill areas. While those from outside this area are encouraged to participate, most events will likely be held within these areas. The VAC Lair is open to all levels from Beginner to PickUp Artist (PUA). Just come with a desire to learn, a willingness to share what you know, and a commitment to field test what you learn. groups.yahoo.com/group/vaclair/
SECOND NEW YORK LAIR STARTED:
With the help of a few friends, Strongbad has started a lair in NYC. They have 16 members within the last 2 weeks. Send an email to either strongbadpua@yahoo.com or
NY-PLAY-subscribe@yahoogroups.com to join if you live in the NY area.
BLOOMINGTON LAIR STARTED:
The Bloomington, IN lair for guys interested in attraction/seduction. This is a group made for guys that want to discuss techniques, inner game, make
new friends, and meet up with wings in the Bloomington area. If your interested in subscribing email: b-lair-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND LAIR
Anyone living in Auckland (New Zealand) are welcome to join this bad ass lair. It's consantly growing, we have guys with all sorts of experience levels with diverse styles of game. We SARGE regularly. So if you're up for some fun e-mail us at akpuah@gmail.com"
SCOTLAND LAIR:
There is now a Scotland Lair. It's the SSs Group and we have a website at www.scotlandlair.com/"> www.scotlandlair.com that we JUST put up. The group is currently yahoo based and we would like to start taking in any members who may or may not have heard about us yet. To join, they can visit SSs.scotlandlair.com which will redirect them to our mailing list, or email signup@scotlandlair.com for more instructions on joining. The website is starting to grow big as it's seen on ASF. We have our own discussion forums. We also have a photo and VIDEO gallery where PUAs can upload their own photos and videos and browse those of others!! We are also giving out free scotlandlair.com email addresses to contributors.
BRAZIL NOW HAS A LAIR:
To join please send an email to Brazil_P-L-A-Y-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
NEW LAIR FORMING IN TOKYO:
The Tokyo lair now has a discussion board for discussing the finer points of the Japanese scene, guys looking to meet wings and discuss all things nanpa can email tokyolair@hotmail.com for an invite to the board.
NEW LAIR FORMED IN ARIZONA:
We have formed a lair for guys interested in pickup and seduction in Arizona. It is open to anyone in the state, regardless of specific city, or skill level. If you are interested in joining, send an email to cramias@mail.com and you will receive an invite to our private forums.
ANNOUNCING SOUTH FLORIDA P-L-A-Y LIST:
The South Florida P-L-A-Y list is a community for Miami, Ft Lauderdale and Boca-Palm Beach area PUA's to meet up and improve their game in the field.
All methods are welcome. Please understand that our primary focus will be field work. To join, please contact Zuzu atSouthFlorida-P-L-A-Y-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
THE INDIA LAIR
We are a small but dynamic bunch of aspiring PUAs in India. Guys of all skill levels are welcome but MUST be serious about actually getting out in the field. Please register at the site. New registrants will be verified to weed out KJs. Visit www.indialair.com/"> www.indialair.com
BRISTOL LAIR
These guys have a truly great site, with a lot of terrific resources. Go to www.bristollair.com.
NEW LAIR FORMING IN DALLAS/FORT WORTH:
If you are interested in joining, please send an e-mail to dfwseductionlair@yahoo.com.
NEW LAIR IN GERMANY!
The name of the group is PU_Meetings_Germany. It´s a field oriented group and we welcome everybody from all over Germany to join and attend our meetings which are held in different cities all over Germany. For further information write to: pimpstylez@hotmail.com
NEW LAIR FORMING IN ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA:
A new lair called the O.C. Player's Group is forming for members of the seduction community in Orange County, California. The group will be a place for everyone from aspiring to accomplished PUAs in "the OC" to post their pick up experiences and successes and meet occasionally in a constructive and non-critical environment. Everyone is welcome, but you must be serious about becoming a PUA and the emphasis will be on getting out into the field and reporting on what worked and what didn't. Armchair pua/theorists need not apply! Contact pua1day (Kurt) for further information at o.c.playasgroup@sbcglobal.net or to join at:
groups.yahoo.com/group/ocplayasgroup/
NEW LAIR FORMING IN HARRISBURG, PA:
No keyboard Junkies, only people who are willing to go out in the field and just get better at the game. All levels are welcome. Contact Gaurang at
NEW SYDNEY LAIR STARTED!!!
Monthly meetings with guest speakers. All levels welcomed only prerequisite is that you are in the field. To join please email ta_justin@hotmail.com
NEW LAIR FORMING IN OKLAHOMA CITY:
Lu is looking to start a lair in Oklahoma City, OK. He would like to invite anyone who's interested in going out sarging to join, & help him get the lair started, please respond only if you are interested in Going Out & SARGE, or Doing Field Work, contact him at ljp97001@yahoo.com.
NEW LAIR FORMING IN PHILADELPHIA
Looking for a group of guys interested in a Lair in the Philly area. All experience levels welcome but must be willing to actually go into the field. See philadelphiaLair@yahoogroups.com or email me at myaroch@yahoo.com
NEW LAIR FORMING IN AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND:
We have already met-up with couple of local guys and SARGE 2-3 times a week. We are willing to meet-up with more guys to share the PU knowledge and experience to improve our game. Those of you who are interested contact us at sexualpredator@em-wave.com"
KANSAS CITY LAIR FORMING:
Looking to get a group of like minded guys together to share ideas and most importantly work the field in Kansas City MO. Write eclypz@hotmail.com and include "From Cliff's List" in the title.
NEW LAIR FORMED IN CONNECTICUT:
Open to PUAs and RAFCs who live in CT who are interested in or have real field experience as opposed to keyboard theory. Send an email to djsemtp00@aol.com with your background and experience.
NEW LAIR FORMED IN OTTAWA:
Ottawa Lair yahoo group created groups.yahoo.com/group/ottawalair/
NEW LAIR FORMED IN BOSTON:
The Boston Lair is now open. The lair is a forum for brothers in the Boston, Rhode Island, and upper New England area to get together and meet others in the game and to build an active community in Boston and the surrounding areas. To subscribe to the Lair, email b-o-s-lair-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.
NEW LAIR FORMING IN NORTH CAROLINA:
A group is interested in forming a lair in the North Carolina area. Members include attendees of the Charlotte Sargeathon in November 2003. Meetings may rotate through different cities (possibly outside North Carolina) depending on interest. Contact Jason at thee_jacas@yahoo.com with LAIR in the subject line for more information.
NEW LAIR FORMED IN POLAND:
We've formed a LAIR in Poland groups.yahoo.com/group/pflayers/join so if anybody is interested in joining it contact me at PFLayers-owner@yahoogroups.com or subscribe at PFLayers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. It's unmoderated formum where You can excange your views on the game and meet with wings in your area.
NEW LAIR FORMING IN LAS VEGAS:
Nightlife who runs San Diego is helping a few guys set something up in Vegas so a new group is now forming. To join please send an email LV-P-L-A-Y-subscribe@yahoogroups.com be prepared to give a brief intro.
NEW LAIR FORMING IN ITALY:
Milano will be headquarters. All Italians, Swiss, Austrians, etc are welcome to join. Would like to set up infrastructure for weekly or biweekly weekend sargefests, both day and night. Goals include: hosting seminars/workshops of the world's best PUAs, sharing the best techniques for Italian hotbabes, sarging together, sarging trips to Roma, Firenze, etc. We need to get a solid core of about 10 guys to really get it going. All levels welcome. Email italypua@yahoo.com for info.
NEW LAIR FORMING IN ATLANTA:
I am interested in forming an Atlanta Lair. If interested, please send an e-mail to jospades54321@yahoo.com
NEW LAIR FORMING MILWAUKEE TO MADISON:
A Lair is start for the Milwaukee to Madison, Wisconsin area. Emphasis will be on field sarging and developing a network of like-minded "wings" to develop and maintain a secret society in this area. We will SARGE from the college bars of Madison to the redneck fishermen bars of Lake Country to the cheesy working class discos of Milwaukee. All interested parties (male or female) please contact g66@outgun.com
NEW LAIR FORMING IN MONTERREY, MEXICO:
The style I use is C&F from DYD, but am willing to try other styles, and will be very focused in going out and learning. Anyone interested in forming a Lair here in Mexico just write to me: javimartinez50@hotmail.com
NEW LAIR FORMING IN HONOLULU, HAWAII:
Showing those surfergirls a good time since late '03. Drop an e-mail to lair808@hotmail.com for more info on building sandcastles.
NEW LAIR IN CHINA (MAINLAND, TAIWAN, HK):
A list for China based PUA has been set-up. Discuss PU tactics/experiences in China, and meet and practice with other local PUA. Contact Angel Caido on el_angel_caido@lycos.com and join the group @ groups.yahoo.com/group/PUA-china/join
NEW LAIR FORMING IN OSLO:
The Oslo Lair just opened. If you are interested / want to join, go to groups.yahoo.com/group/asf-Oslo/ and apply. We will start out with monthly meetings, on the first Sunday of every month. The first meeting will be held December 7th, at 18h00.
NEW LAIR FORMING IN LOS ANGELES:
The LA List, PLAY (Player's Los Angeles Yahoo) Group, is a community for Los Angeles area PUAs to talk about the game, make friends in the community, and meet up with wings in the LA area. The PLAY List is a community that is open to the public and is a place where you can share your views on any methods in an unmoderated (except for deletion of spam) forum. Contact Papa at papa@realsocialdynamics.com and get on the mailing list by emailing p-l-a-y-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.
WASHINGTON, D.C.:
DC Seduction, formerly known as DC Area PUAs, has been around since 2000. We are over three dozen brothers drawn from the FastSeduction, SS, and the Lounge communities. Contact Minger at minger@dcseduction.com
SEATTLE LAIR FORMING!
I would like to find out how many are interested in forming a Seattle Lair. Contact theloinking1@hotmail.com to get on their mailing list.
THE AUSTIN SOCIETY (AUSTIN, TEXAS)
The Austin Society is a group of friends, within the greater Austin/San Antonio area, improving their attraction and relationship skills through field work and study. If you are interested in joining and contributing to our group, email us at theaustinsociety@yahoogroups.com for more info. Open-minded gentlemen of all skill levels are welcome."
NEW ORLEANS LAIR FORMING:
Joseph is looking to set up or find a "mastermind group" of likeminded people and he is in the south MS area about 1.5 hours drive from New Orleans or the MS gulf coast. He would like to invite anyone in MS/LA/AL within driving distance to participate, and to help him to get it started. Contact him at: veuxdeux@yahoo.com
NYC:
Contact Marco, marcorulesinfinity@yahoo.com and get on their mailing list: NYCTSF-SUBSCRIBE@YAHOOGROUPS.COM
SAN DIEGO (TWO GROUPS NOW!):
1) The San Diego lair is now opening their doors to potential new members for the next 30 days. If interested in joining the San Diego lair please contact Nightlife at nightlife@playboylifestyle.net
2) Pete M., and Nightlife have formed another seduction group in San Diego. This is to benefit guys who are interested in Pick Up who live or frequent San Diego. It is a group that is modeled after the LA P-L-A-Y list. To join send an email to SD-P-L-A-Y-subscribe@yahoogroups.com It is open to everyone in San Diego.
SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA LAIR:
We have a very active group in the San Francisco area dedicated to improving their game. All skill levels and types of game welcome. We have meetings once every 6 weeks or so, and numerous SARGE outings. We also have top PUA's share their knowledge with us when they come to San Francisco. Our list traffic is low but valuable. Lots of field reports and feedback. To join send an email to sf_morpheus_x@yahoo.com, and mention you heard about us on Cliff's list.
TOLEDO, OHIO - METRO DETROIT:
I am interested in starting a Lair in the Toledo, Ohio - Metro Detroit Area; Those interested should email Jay at TSAFriend@hotmail.com
HOUSTON:
www.houstonlair.com Members of the Lair meet regularly, actively apply and improve their skills and are eager to teach success. Contact: xmlenigma, bashev can be reached at xmlenigma@yahoo.com, rnkayab@hotmail.com
MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA:
The Melbourne Lair is now fully operational. Currently we are meeting once a month, with members hooking up to go sarging between meetings. All styles, ages, and abilities are welcome. To join us contact Craig at cnoodles@bigpond.com.au
Melbourne Lair: The place, an open shopping center in the heart of the city. I sit down at the food court and wait for familiar faces to arrive. I picked the location of this months meeting of the Melbourne Lair, Its great to have it in an informal place like a food court, sets a nice relaxing mood. Once everybody arrives we push some tables together and start the meeting. We discuss peoples sticking points and offer suggestions, we tell stories of crash and burns and success stories. We just shoot the sh*t, it f*cking great to meet up with like minded people. While telling someone my smurf routine, I see two guys get up from the table and start walking away, I glance back later to see them sitting with a girl, these guys are approach machines.
The meeting goes on way too f*cking long, everybody's got a story to tell, advice to offer, we could talk to each other for days. I feel like this is Ocean's 11 and we are planning the big heist. There is the leader, he started the group. The guru, he's an encyclopedia of info. There is the joker, he can't stop negging and teasing everyone; f*cking Canadians. There's the approach machines, they can't follow the conversation because they are too busy following the nearest piece of ass. There is the SSer, the grease boy and of course Brad Pitt. We all exchange numbers before leaving and make plans for sarging during the week. If there is a Lair in your area, join it, if there isn't, start one of your own. You will not regret it.
AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND
Philip has started a LAIR for those who live in the upper North Island of New Zealand (Auckland, Hamilton, Tauranga, etc). There are already 4 of them who have been meeting regularly in Auckland, and they welcome others to be in touch. SSer's from elsewhere in New Zealand are also welcome to email to share experiences and form a network. Contact: philip@toeb.co.nz
MIAMI:
Contact Jerry at trudelle@email.com to attend.
LONDON, ENGLAND
The London Seduction Society www.thelss.com
AMSTERDAM:
Contact Big Bear groups.yahoo.com/group/nllounge/
The main purpose of the Lair is to help Wingmen to get in touch with each other and "in field" action! Membership open to anyone who lives in Holland or Belgium, or is a frequent visitor. However membership policy is strict.
PERTH, AUSTRALIA:
The Perth lair is a small group of people who SARGE regularly several times a week. At the moment, I'm actively looking for new members to join us on our outings (the more the merrier!). Anyone wishing to go sarging with us any day of the week should email me at tnejad@hotmail.com to meet up.
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Blake Richards has put out a new ebook that looks very interesting. Check it out here: www.social-mastery.com/Game.html
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Real Social Dynamics WORKSHOPS:
I highly recommend that you check these guys out. They are in the final stages of producing their long-awaited e-book as well as a redesign of their website.
Anyone interested in attending their seminars and/or workshops, email Papa at papa@realsocialdynamics.com with the subject "WORKSHOP" and mention that you heard about it from Cliff's List.
Real Social Dynamics (www.realsocialdynamics.com/ ):
Learn what works in seminar, and then jump directly into the field and watch the instructors demonstrate and teach it live. Stop feeling the fear of not knowing what to do ...
Individualized Bootcamps
Sign up and get more info here: www.realsocialdynamics.com/):
More info also available by sending an email to: support@relsocialdynamics.com
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The Venusian Art Society is dedicated to the pursuit of Relationship Mastery.
We have started a Yahoo group in each city our members are located in Denver,Houston, and Atlanta. You can register for membership by going to Yahoo and joining V_A_S_D or V_A_S_A or V_A_S_H. Be sure to include your experience in the Venusian Arts as well as what you hope to get out of them.
This forum will serve as a way to discuss any and all issues related to the Venusian Arts, from cold approach to relationship management. We welcome all active participants in the Venusian arts from any of the various schools such as MM, SS, DYD, etc..
This will be a controlled forum so feel free to post anything you want as long as it is directly relatable to the Venusian Arts. This is not a classified board or a place to advertise.
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New Dating/Seduction Seminars & Workshop in Montreal by DOC!
Doc, who many of you know from his great interview here last time and all too rare but outstanding posts on this list, on Mystery's Lounge, and the Montreal Lair, is bringing his seminars and speed dating events to Montreal. Previously they were mainly held in Toronto as part of the Learning Annex, Doc is now setting it up here and plans to hold events on a monthly basis.
The website is www.lifeskillsnetwork.ca. Registrations available on the website. The events are Dating Secrets for Women, a 3 Hour seminar (cost $50) and Dating Secrets for Guys; a Guide to The Art of Dating (also 3 hours and $50). There will also be a speed dating event in the evening for $50. You can contact Doc by email at seduction.school@sympatico.ca.
The fall calendar has a full weekend seminar and makeover. He also has 3 new books coming out this fall under the SETNA Dating Manual Series. Volume I (to be released this week) deals with the psychology of attraction, first impressions, and working on your inner game, Volume II (coming in September) deals with tactics and strategies to go from meeting her to dating her, and Volume III will deal with Managing Relationships.
Full-weekend Dating Makeover workshops will be offered soon (including a half day with a personal stylist, video tape analysis of body language, and live practice sessions with dating coaches beautiful women who will give the guys on the spot feedback on how they come across and what to improve). If there is a group of 10 or more guys interested in a seminar (or 5 guys for a workshop, he would consider making a special trip to their city).
This is a great opportunity to learn from a real master.
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Mystery Method Workshops:
What method are YOU using?
If you are opening groups (or sets: 2-sets, 3-sets, mixed sets, etc) of people with the 3 second rule by stacking indirect openers (including false opinion openers), false time constraining (discovered by Style), demonstrating a higher value to your romantic interest’s peer group with high octane DHVs while she obliquely observes (locking her into her own set with a prop), and simultaneously performing false disqualifiers (which include negs) on her with the intension of disarming her peergroup and then isolating her to rebuild her self-esteem once you have enough IOIs (indicators of interest) so you may share in a comfort and trust building effort and then build in a jealousy subplot to solidify her attraction for you, you are using The Mystery Method.
If instead you are only approaching women who are alone, you are greatly limiting your options and quite likely alienating your target's friends. Do you want a lonely woman (why is she lonely?) or a woman who already has a healthy social lfe? Truth is, healthy women have healthy relationships ... sometimes good friendships with guys. Like it or not, you will have to meet these women with men in her group.
Women of beauty are rarely found alone. Don't miss the opportunity to meet and attract them WITH social proof from her very own peergroup. Group Approach Theory (GAT - created by me) improves your options and increases the chances for attraction DRAMATICALLY over Single Approach Theory (SAT).
The guys who are GREAT in this game KNOW that they can improve their game ten-fold through seminars and personal coaching in-field workshops. Think about this: Why did so many of the greats who use my GAT (Style, Tyler D., MTL_PUA, and others) take my seminars and workshops? What started them off to greatness in this game? Can you see the co-relation may in fact be a causation?
If you have NEVER taken a seminar or workshop before, it's time to finally reconsider. They are life-transforming. I have conducted dozens of them. I am currently conducting a bootcamp and will accept only 5 people. Workshops and seminars were for many of the greats THE difference between great success and failure. If you are ready, give me a call and sign up. If you have any questions, give me a shout at 323-219-8696 (Mystery) because email sucks, or visit www.mysterymethod.com/"> www.Mysterymethod.com and email me your #. We need to talk. Man to man.
NEW: Attraction Magic
Content: In the Attraction Magic Seminar, Mystery will teach you the magical illusions most useful in picking up women. In addition to rune casting and sleight of hand, he will teach you to vanish coins, rings, jewelry and other small objects. You will also be taught how to move objects without touching them and how to "read" minds. As I'm sure you can imagine, magic is a superb DHV. Captivating and impressing an entire group of people goes a long way in raising your social value in the eyes of women. If there is one thing that Mystery knows more about than women, it is magic.
www.mysterymethod.com/schedule.htm
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Swinggcat has published a new ebook which you can check out at his website at www.realworldseduction.com. Those of you who remember his outstanding posts here will be anxious to get this as soon as possible. Highly recommended.
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Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction Seminars (www.speedseduction.net/)
Advanced Speed Seduction® Seminars - All Seminars Updated!
The first 2006 seminar is scheduled for LA, Jan 20, 21, 22. Look for more details soon, or call Dr. Yates at 903-482-1034. Price is $1,195, but it's $895 if you sign up by December 15th. This seminar is ONLY open to those who own a Speed Seduction Home Study Course so you better hop on line and buy one now if you don't already have one and plan on attending.
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Major Mark (www.trucor.com):
Send mail to Cassi@trucor.com with questions or comments about his seminars.
Call to register: 419 882-8543 or go to www.trucor.com
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Double Your Dating LIVE! NEW Seminar! We will be reviewing all of the new DYD products here soon, including the monthly interview series in which David DeAngelo interviews "Dating Gurus".
You can order all your DYD products and register for seminars through this link: