Clearly I had to figure out how the hell that all could have happened with perfectly sober, normal girls in the middle of the da
This is Cliff's Private List, a free e-mail relating to seduction. Your contributions of articles, field reports, reviews and other comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from people commenting are separated by HHHHHH with each commentator's name preceding each comment. Comments from previous emails are preceded by an ">", usually in front of that commentator's name). Feel free to forward this email to all your friends and encourage them to request a free subscription by going to www.cliffslist.com and click on "Subscribe." You can also unsubscribe on the site as well. If you would like to be added to the free joke list (and mention if you do not want to receive the adult emails that come with the joke list), send an email to cliff@cliffslist.com. All posts you see here have been submitted by the author, or permission granted by the author to be reposted here. All emails with comments should be sent to cliff@cliffslist.com. If you are reading this as an email, you want to go to www.cliffslist.com and see the entire email, which includes Lair listings (see if there is one in your city or start one if there isn't), promotional notices, seminar notices, new product and website announcements - and lots more. This email has been edited and modified to allow it to pass through the various email filters - the unedited version is on the website.
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
DID YOU MISS THE 2005 ASSEMBLY OF PICK UP ARTISTS, LADIES MEN, & DATING EXPERTS? You are in now out of luck!!
The Cliff's List Convention 2005 DVD's are NOT CURRENTLY available!! The original pressing is now SOLD OUT!!! The product may be reissued when the new www.cliffslist.com site is up, but for the time
being it is out of stock.
2006 DVDs Coming Soon! VERY SOON!!!
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
PROMOS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS (includes announcements of new sites, podcasts, events, products, etc.)
See the on-line version of this email at www.cliffslist.com (click on "Letter") for more details about many of the following - scroll down to the Promo section:
- Hypnotica has a very sharp looking new 8 CD audio product out, Redesigning Yourself focusing on creating confidence for men. http://cdbaby.com/cd/hypnotica2
- The Mystery Method has come out with a new book, Magic Bullets. Find out more at: http://www.themysterymethod.com/magicbullets.html?kbid=2614
- Shai: Here's a really neat gadget that not only (1) automatically logs you in to all your web accounts and collects your user names and passwords as you use the net, (2) prints/exports a list of the websites, usernames and passwords so you have them easily accessible in one place if you want, (3) allows you to create a section on your computer where you can hide files so no one can find them if they go on your machine, (4) acts as a portable USB drive with storage available up to 2 GB, but (5) uses your fingerprint to secure all your information when you use these features. Check it out at http://cliff.n-tegrity.ca
- Herbal, one of the characters made famous by The Game, has finally released an ebook after taking some time away from the community. He also offers a free 10 Day E-Mail Bootcamp." For more information, visit http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/?af=557240
- Carlos Xuma is releasing a new program entitled "Alpha Man Conversation & Persuasion," which covers all areas of communication. From talking to women, to using NLP, to creating REAL attraction and rapport, to handling the guys that try to tool you - you'll find what you need in this 14 CD program. Carlos is also giving away a free one-on-one phone coaching session to one of the first 500 guys who get the program. Visit: http://coldfusion.affiliateshop.com/AIDLink.cfm?AID=068971&Redirect2=r.p...
- How to be an all-around cooler person - completely free, practical advice for guys on social skills, getting along with people, and getting your act together - all written by a recovered loser. Not everyone will need to read the material here, but take a look if you think you could benefit from improving your people skills before diving into the seduction game. Feel free to check it out at http://www.howtobecooler.com
- Dr Alex Benzer is holding his Tao of Dating Advanced Transformation Weekend in Los Angeles on March 9-11 which combines principles of Eastern wisdom and
Western science to bring you massive success in your dating life and beyond. He is holding a series of f r e e preview teleseminars featuring the guest speakers, including an online dating expert, a top Hollywood voice coach and a world-renowned dating coach. Dr Alex speaks on the first teleseminar on Wed, Feb 7 entitled 'How to Get Lucky'. To sign up for the teleseminars and see the video testimonials from last year's students, go to http://www.marketerschoice.com/app/aftrack.asp?afid=532745
- Jordan has a new podcast out about pickup. The content is, and will continue to be, 100% free and doesn't push any particular method or
commercial product/workshop, etc. The website is www.pickuppodcast.com
- LayGuide was the original inspiration for Neil Strauss to write "The Game" and is still the most thorough and continually updated collection of the best dating, attraction and seduction tips in the world: http://www.layguide.com/cgi-bin/affiliates/clickthru.cgi?id=Cliffslist
- In The Game by Neil Strauss, "TwoTimer" is talked about as one of the top players. His more commonly known handle is IN10SE, and his "Octoberman Sequence" has been whispered about and become a LEGEND in the on-line Pickup artist community. It's rumored to give a woman ULTIMATE pleasure and you ULTIMATE control - in as little as 15 minutes! Only the BEST of the BEST know it. Check it out here: http://www.octoberman.com//index.asp?af=Cliffslist&bn=1
- Which PUA would you like to hear answer YOUR most pressing questions about Pick-Up? Captain Jack (of http://www.betheseducer.com) is planning to interview the PUA you most want to hear from in a totally FREE 70-90 Minute Teleseminar. To nominate your favorite PUA and get more info on the event just go to: http://www.askdatabase.com/campaigns/?af=28521
- BECOME A "CHICK WHISPERER " Scot McKay of X & Y Communications has announced his monthly audio series entitled "Power Sessions For Men". Sign up for Scot's newsletter, then get in on his Power Sessions series to find out how to become a "chick whisperer". In order to GET women, you have to UNDERSTAND them first. http://www.thechickwhisperer.com/4130
- Ron Louis & David Copeland have published a new book on how to get the women you desire to pursue you by being the "Hard to Get Man." They just added the "Hard to Get Man Power Up MP3" 70-minute audio to the "How to be the Bad Boy Women Love" ebook offer, at no extra cost. Find out more at: http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/aftrack.asp?afid=318551
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Upcoming Montreal Events!
1) Pickup 101 in Montreal!
Art of Attraction Workshop March 9-11, 2007
Art of Rapport Workshop March 16-18, 2007
For more info: http://pickup101.com/cmd.php?af=291292
2) Doc gives special talk to Montreal Lair Sunday, Feb. 25. Free admission. Email cliff@cliffslist.com for details.
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Cardinal (Seductiontech.com):
I wanted to let you know about the social networking site I created for the community. It's like Myspace and Facebook together, but for us PUAs. I just moved the site over to a new server so it's running 110% quicker now. I've also given the site a huge facelift! The database is really coming along, login and add your favorite seduction material.
In the next few days I'm going to release the new zipcode wing search feature.
Tell all your friends... Puanetwork.com
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Sum One:
Cocky/funny (A) + touching - rapport = no emotional connection = not solid game.
You can substitute (A) with other 'attraction' tools such as: teasing, ball busting, stories, qualifying (her), disqualifying (yourself), NLP patterns, take away, cold reads, magic tricks, super confidence, canned routines, frame control, etc., and the result will still be the same.
I saw some physical attraction between her and you, but no emotional connection. Also I don't lean in for the first kiss. When our faces are only inches away from each other and the vibe is good, it naturally happens.
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Tom:
Dr. Alex of The Tao of Dating is putting on another seminar, and as an attendee of his first one, I thought a (short) report of the first one might be helpful.
(For information on his seminar coming up March 9-11, go to: http://www.marketerschoice.com/app/aftrack.asp?afid=532745)
With Dr. Alex, the process is: work on inner game and all will follow. His outer game focus is on rapport. I got few lines from Dr. Alex but I got tons out the seminar.
He uses a group hypnosis/trance process (which I was skeptical of) that works to embed stuff deeper in your subconsciousness. And it worked. If you are familiar with mindtracks - they are much better/more effective when done live (kind of like live music is better than recorded music).
Everything is based on results - so he shows you in small groups how/why you will get the results he says. For example we actually sat down and developed interesting stories from our own lives and practiced telling them.
He also works with you to expand your comfort zone sounds simple and it was with Dr. Alex. One exercise was to go into a store and ask for something they could not possibly provide. Among other things, you are solving the problem of "fear of approaching" by learning, in your body, that you can do things were you get rejected, yet you live.
I enjoyed two things about the seminar that might not have struck other people - one is that Dr. Alex knows how to learn - and therefore how to teach, he used many modalities and reinforcing techniques help the information stick in your mind and body and be useful to you in the real world. We had lecture, trance, small group exercises, real world missions, all reinforcing the new behaviors and attitudes.
The 2nd was he knows he doesn't know everything, so he had a guest speaker list full of practical advice pulled from other disciplines - voice coaching, posture coaching, sexual expression coaching - online dating with Grant Adams, etc. So while Dr. Alex is definitely the meat and potatoes, the guest speakers filled in the voids and added some spice.
Bottom line is results. I was 38, recently divorced and a 6.2 on Hot or Not when I went to his seminar. I'm also a guy who can afford, at most, one of these seminars a year. I was seeing one woman that I didn't really like. Within 30 days of returning I was seeing/dating/intimate with 3 attractive women, ranging in age from 25 to 40 and much happier with my dating life. (And now I'm a 7.6 on hot or not! - how did Dr. Alex do that?!)
P.S. I have more to learn and I am definitely attending this year's seminar. I look forward to meeting some of you.
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Luxy:
Review of Savoy's Relationship Management Seminar (http://www.themysterymethod.com/magicbullets.html?kbid=2614)
I was one of the paying participants at the seminar and found it extremely helpful because no one else that I have found is talking in depth about this stuff.
Aspects of the Seminar that I thought Savoy did well:
1) I really appreciated Savoy’s integrity. Savoy was very upfront about areas that The Mystery Method ("MM") folks didn't have a lot of expertise in, but referred us to other possible sources of information. Specifically, Savoy mentioned that MM folks weren't experts on Open relationships (not to be confused with MULTIPLE relationships at which Savoy had lots of experience) but mentioned the book "The Ethical Slut," as a source of information. Also when A.J. asked the question about dating minor celebrities, Savoy honestly said he didn't have experience with that, but suggested A.J. try the forum because there should be people who did have experience. I have to say, that gave Savoy A LOT of credibility in my mind. It's sort of weird how many so called "gurus" have popped up and spout off all kinds of crap -- a lot of which seems to have no basis in actual reality. To hear Savoy admit to areas that he was not particularly expert on, made me feel like I was getting sound advice in the many other areas in which he did have experience. It gave him a lot of credibility in my mind.
2) I also really appreciated how Savoy answered people's questions directly. No "gamey-ness", no weird "frame control" crap. Why do I say this? Well, I admit that I heard a bootleg audio recording from a boot camp that Mystery, himself, taught a few years back. Yes, I know that's not cool to listen to bootlegs sorry, no disrespect intended. I'm mentioning it because the bootleg made me think that I would NOT want to take a boot camp taught by Mystery himself, because sometimes when people would ask questions Mystery would sort of deflect his answer onto a slightly different subject. And I really got the sense that he HAD to be the center of attention and would sometimes cut people off that were talking, even if they had something insightful to say. That to me is a sign of insecurity and is extremely annoying. I'm not trying to bash Mystery--I mean the guy's a genius for coming up with the theory and he's brilliant in-field, but I think he has some short comings in the teaching department. Savoy, on the other hand, really listened to what people were asking, repeated their questions to make sure everyone understood, and answered as directly as he could. Excellent! It's really refreshing and is a sign that he respects his audience's intelligence.
3) Which leads me to another point which I appreciated. Savoy really let people express ideas and opinions. I felt like I got A LOT from the other participants, both during Savoy’s lecture and during the less formal Q&A. It was great how Savoy kept it free flowing and was secure enough to let others speak. Savoy agreed and disagreed when he thought appropriate, but he did not have to hog the limelight at all times. Which allowed for more inter-activity; more well-roundedness of opinion and thought; and a richer overall learning experience. There were a lot of smart, thoughtful guys there and it was beneficial to hear their questions and thoughts on a subject matter that we are all intensely interested in.
4) And perhaps most importantly, I believe this subject matter of Relationship Management is REALLY CRUCIAL. I think it's crucial because as men we need to CONSCIOUSLY think about the types of relationships we want (INCLUDING THE NEGATIVE ASPECTS--for example the tremendous energy it takes to have long-term partners that Savoy and other participants attested to). It's weird how few people talk about this!
I also think it's important because, let's be frank, a lot of PUA stuff has an underlying misogynistic tone, or at least a sort of willful ignorance tone as to the repercussions. I mean once you get all these girls interested in you, what do you do with them? One possibility is to set up a lot of false expectations on their part. NO ONE that I have found talks about how to be a RESPECTFUL yet TACTFUL in managing women's expectations. So that, for example, one isn't giving off signals of "serious, monogamous boyfriend" when one is more interested in dating multiple women or friends with benefits or whatever. I found Savoy’s seminar IMMENSELY helpful in this regard.
5) Savoy has a real talent of being able to explain how to do this, in a clear manner.
I have a good friend who often dates multiple girls and he is very good at being honest and tactful and not creating bad feelings. But when I queried him about what he actually says to the girls or how he approaches these situations and sets them up, it was very hard for him to give me a clear answer. I think he just does it so reflexively and so naturally that it's difficult for him to describe what his frame is, or what he actually says to the women. (Similar to a natural PUA who has been successfully attracting women all his life, and who can't necessarily explain to other guys those specific behaviors that make him successful.)
So the fact that Savoy actually COULD and DID explain what to do in a step-by-step fashion, was extremely beneficial, especially since NO ONE else is doing so, at least that I've found.
6) All of which leads me to feel that Savoy is giving guys the tools to be respectful to both themselves (figuring out what they want in their relationships with women) AND respectful to the women with whom they get involved, by setting up women's expectations in a way that is honest yet tactful. I strongly feel there is more of this needed not only in "the community" but in the dating world in general. Again, I'm struck by how no one else seems to be doing this. No one in the community and no one in the general public. (I mean think how WEIRD that is! With all the advice books and columns and crap out there in the general public about dating, no one talks about how to date multiple people in an honest yet respectful manner. It's like some weird sort of denial going on in the world of general public dating literature. And in the world of PUA material, it seems just freakin' bizarre and dysfunctional that there is hardly any discussion about this.)
Suggestions for Improvement
1) It's really helpful to give a lot of specific examples of actual wording to use with women for specific situations. Sometimes, I felt like I had to really query Savoy to get out specific examples of things to say when breaking up or things to say when explaining you were dating more than one girl. A lot of guys are NOT good at this sort of thing (myself included). So it's helpful to actually have examples of specific wording with the tonality you would use. I actually wrote down word of word, direct quotes of specific things Savoy would say to women in different situations. Not that I would actually use that same exact wording, but because it is extremely helpful to mull it over and actually see/hear an example of how to do it correctly. (I remember on the "Openings" CD, Savoy said there was no substitute for modeling successful guys in learning how to open. Well, it's very helpful to have concrete, actual examples of wording to serve as a model in other areas too--including different aspects of relationship management!)
2) During the seminar, I kept asking about breaking up with girls, thinning the stable, how long multiple relationships last, etc. All of Savoy’s answers to my queries were super helpful and on point, but I think if he does this seminar in the future, he may want to consider including a section on breaking up / the natural time life of different kinds of relationships / how to break up in a respectful way / etc, instead of just leaving it to someone like myself to ask. Why? Because no one freakin' talks about the end of relationships!!!! I mean it seems to me that how a relationship ends can be as important as how it begins. It makes sense to have social skills to navigate this territory in a way that is the most beneficial for everyone involved. The vast majority of everyone's sexual relationships eventually end (even folks not in "the community"--think about how most people date many people before they find "the one" [if they ever find "the one"]). It makes sense to know what to expect as far as usual time lines and how to breakup in a respectful manner. Come to think of it, even if one actually forms a traditional "life-time", monogamous partnership, that relationship will also inevitably end with the eventual death of one of the partners.
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Local guru master:
To everyone who took my "revenge stories" posts a little too seriously, let's not forget who teaches the 5D Compassion model and let's not forget who spends 18 hours a day helping people to open their Heart Chakra.
When I do "revenge' things, I'm playful and compassionate; it's not about dark vengeful angry revenge and the imposition of my values, it's about playing with people, and influence, and challenging them to be the best person they can be. If I make a girl watch me having sex and don't let her participate, this isn't to hurt her, it's to get her to realize that her pu55y power games don't affect me. It's my way of saying, "If you want to participate, you better open your heart first and quit acting like you're such a "prize" to be won".
Same goes with strippers - If I make a stripper watch me work my girlfriend's plumbing, it's not to make her feel inadequate, it's to change her frame that I am a beggar. It's also to open her up to the possibilities.
People are so quick to go, "Aha! He's DARK and MEAN! I knew it!" but I'm asking you to not be so quick to point fingers at me. Let's try to have a sense of humor and not take life - nor my extremely entertaining and funny post - too seriously. Perhaps if I had read it out loud to you, you would have seen that my tone, my energy was light and playful. So anyway, I know you can't help but love me : )
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
BRANDON!
You want to BE POWERFUL and SEXY?
Without the games without the struggle, without always wondering what to say, without wondering what "pick-up line" or silly "pattern" to run next? Without having to always be searching for that next "pick-up" or seduction book, or the so-called sacred teachings of the mighty PUAs, whose techniques do not always work for everyone in every situation, anyway.
Here's a tip for those of you who have the vision to see the wisdom in my message, something VERY powerful I have found that really ADDS power to your seduction skills, which is all I'll say for now.
BECOME a MAGICKIAN!!!
You really can tranceform yourself and your "romantic" life by adding the unbeatable influence of "MAGICK" into your social life.
Just something for you to ponder now as I bid you farewell!
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Greg:
I'd like to add a bit to the dialogue related to the local guru master's letter about strippers.
What if the insights he shares with strippers in the club leads to them getting out of that lifestyle? In a lot of cases I think a good mental wakeup call like the one he talks about will do it. Drill sergeants in the Marines don't tread lightly to soften up their macho recruits, do they? Most of these girls have hard shells towards men and are the equivalents of Marines in that way. If cracking their shells a bit and exposing their soft hearts ever so slightly causes them to begin respecting men, that's a gift.
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Big Z:
I definitely agree with Carlos' comment. One thing I picked up from sarging with my best friend (a real genuine natural with a count over 400) is that going for kisses is the slowest way possible into a girl's pants. Kissing is really for after you've started to finger a girl, as far as he's concerned. As far as sheer speed of seduction goes, I've never met ANYONE who could so consistently get girls naked in less than a couple hours. Shortly after reconnecting with him after he got back from the SEALs, long before I ever heard of any sort of seduction community, he and I were hanging in front of a convenience store where a mutual friend was working. Two girls pull up and I call out to them and they come over. We chat for like five or ten minutes, and so fast my head's spinning they're following me in my car up to my place out in the woods. We all get inside and I swear to G-d he's got their shirts off in another fifteen minutes, like they're in a trance. He's got both girls standing in front of him in their panties while he plays with their nipples and then smooth as shit he just peels one off for me to play with -- and this girl's an 18 year old virgin, no less (so naturally I was super gentlemanly and didn't fuck her because I didn't know her and I cared about such things at the time).
Clearly I had to figure out how the hell that all could have happened with perfectly sober, normal girls in the middle of the day, because it totally blew out every preconceived notion I had about picking up chicks, and how they all wanted boyfriends and made guys eat shit before doling out the sex. So I wound up finding asf and Cliff's List here. This would have been back in 2000 -- and I've drifted a ways off from learning to pick up specifically since then and pursued more of a path of being as excellent and fun a person as I can be and reaping the natural benefits (like girls) when available. I'm no pro by any stretch, but at least I can turn opportunities into lays when I feel like it, and I don't have any guilt and shame like I did when I was trying to 'make' girls like me like there was some deficiency to my character, though I don't make as many HBs as I could if I went out after girls who weren't flashing me significant IOIs on their own-- oh well.
Anyway, to make a long story short, one thing I learned from my friend that I haven't seen much of here is that the kiss is totally optional. You do NOT have to do the kiss before you've got a hand up her skirt and she's moaning and wet. Now, one thing that I always noticed he truly excels at is keeping up the patter while fooling around with a girl. He'll tease her about her sexual desires, saying things like 'you're practically panting for it already, look at you', or talk real soft and low and slow about physical, sensual feelings when she's all eyes asking to be led. He pays attention to their state and tells her how she's actually feeling.
So when it comes to kissing you, if you have any LMR, just be cool and shift back to playful, and don't fuckin' worry about it-- if you can create a strong state of fun you can just naturally run it back around to sexual-- the line between sexual touch and playful touch just isn't that well defined for most people.
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH