Give me your phone number and we'll order pizza

Papa (from an email exchange between Clifford and Papa): Kiss Closes Clifford: What do you look for before you move in? What tells you yes and what tells you no? Papa: When I am in the state of "I don't care about anything else around me" and I'm just having lots of fun, I'll just look for any opportunity to kiss a girl...whether on the dance floor, isolation with her for a few minutes at the bar, or if I want the connection to really be there first...I'll look for IOIs ( DDB, kino from her, etc.)...it's intuition. I'll move in and kiss the girl any time I am in any of these situations as long as I feel there is rapport between us (and a decent level of attraction)...and do it in a very confident and congruent masculine way. If dancing with a hottie that's really enjoying me, I'll use a swing dancing move and twirl her around...and then when I stop...I'll pull her hands down and kiss her. When I'm talking to a girl after giving her a psychic reading or after lots of kino , I'll pull her hands close to mine, place them into a clasped hand position, clasp my hands around hers, gaze into her eyes, think about how sexual this is so she sees the lust in my eyes, and kiss her. I often feel like she is rewarding me for my time with a kiss too...because I've often showed her something new, exciting, and given her something special to think about...through either a cold-reading, dancing, exciting conversation, or simply as a result that I have social proof (since I'm the man of the club or the party host) and she's hanging out with me...so if she's going to suck on my social proof and adventurous lifestyle persona...she's going to give me a kiss. This is definitely an intense experience for me if you do this right and she won't know what to do because everything is happening so quickly. You know you can do it because she will not want to lose rapport with you...she wants to see what will happen next. You are like her romance novel...unless you are simply at her house or your place...watching a movie...and
you decide it's time to makeout...then you are not her romance novel...you're just ready to hookup and stop watching that silly movie (your excuse to hookup and she knows it). My favorite kiss close technique is when I have the girl with her hands clasped and pull close to me...with my hands clasped on top of hers...and I take one hand and point to one cheek (and then she kisses it)...then I point to the other cheek (and then she kisses that)...and then I move in and kiss her mouth (sometimes I'll point to my mouth and say 'now give me a big children's kiss'). On the other hand, I like just kissing the girl spontaneously after building up deep rapport and attraction from dancing with her, talking with her, and just coming off like an alpha male. I believe a girl will kiss any guy that comes across highly confident, outgoing, sexual, and acts like kissing is just part of the normal conversation. People often treat kissing like an usual thing. In Australia, Spain, Brazil, and other countries outside of America,
kissing is often a natural process. It should be treated this way everywhere. Clifford: Have you had many refusals, pull backs, or other negative responses? Papa: Like everyone else in the Game, I've had refusals and pull backs from my kiss. That's because only you can calibrate when, how to deliver the kiss close, and after how much rapport you can successfully maneuver a kiss. When I first got in the Game, I had bad results because I wouldn't come across very confident in my kissing...I'd ask the girl if she wanted to kiss me and this works only after developing super high levels of rapport...or else you'll get a no. So I just give it to them on my command and just move in. I often move in for the kiss when my face is relatively close to the girl's face...because it's while dancing, after heavy kino , or talking close to her at a nightclub so that she can hear what I'm saying...and when you do this, you maximize your success of getting the kiss...because there is simply less time for her t
o react in any negative way...and once you are kissing her...it's too late for her to change her mind because now the both of you have to act somewhat congruent for the rest of the night. This is why you must kiss the girl if you want to move to a one night stand. I can get turned down now and then...especially when I'm experimenting with funny and playful kiss closes that I haven't used before...however, when I'm in close proximity to them and I use the kiss close that I describe below...there is no time for the girl to refuse so you don't get refused...and after the kiss...the girl has to make an excuse for it to be a positive thing because all girls wants kisses to seem cool/special. Clifford: What can you put in writing that is really an explanation of instinct and experience in this situations? Papa: Now, people have told me that kissing the girl is good, but putting off kissing towards later can pay dividends. This is true in some situations because girls want what they can't have. However, I am going to kiss girls whenever the opportunity arises on my first encounter. If you treat the kiss in your first encounter as just the time to phase shift and build deeper rapport before you start your one night stand or get her phone number (if you feel like it's not happening tonight), then you are set. Oftentimes, guys think that the kiss seals the deal and then they push for the one night stand and lose rapport. In my opinion, the kiss is just the time in the Game where you need to focus on building deep rapport so that the girl will think how comfortable, secure, and safe she is around you...and she won't think about the kiss as just the kiss she gave to the random guy while she was drunk (however, this is not an issue at all if you kiss her during the day). She'll only be able to justify the kiss as proof of her attraction if you kiss her during the day. Girls have told my friends that they go out and kiss different guys every weekend they go out so a kiss isn't very special to them. That's true for many attractive girls...which makes the Game very fun to me...and makes making-out with these girls easy. It's also these girls that often go out with the intention of a one-night-stand. I've heard that if you find these girls trying to kiss you and you refuse, then you may increase you chances of one-night stands; however, I haven't field-tested this. I'll let other people field test this and tell me what they think of this. I enjoy making-out with girls too much to turn down opportunities that I firmly believe will lead to a one-night stand and deeper rapport. Clifford: I have a theory that I haven't had the nerve yet to put into practice. My thinking is that most women will just kiss you back if you move in and kiss them in a confident, congruent masculine way. I can't see how you could establish enough rapport or attraction to get tacit permission to kiss women in the 5-15 minutes you usually take before you move in. I also recall the thread about "kiss openers" on Mystery's Lounge - clearly these women were not in position to make a conscious decision to make out with someone this quickly. Papa: Yes. A woman will kiss any man that comes that comes up to her and sucks her into his own compelling reality. So if you move in for a kiss after demonstrating that you are outgoing and confident...whammo. In my opinion, the kisses that I've been getting in the 5-15 minutes that I take before I move in all involve a degree of rapport and attraction because when I don't receive any indications of interest, I'll won't kiss her until the girl is responsive. Your theory that oftentimes girls are not in a position to consciously decide to initiate the kiss is oftentimes true when you kiss her. However...once you start kissing the girl...the girl will notice that it's too late...she's already kissed you...and she'll then have to gauge how much attraction and rapport you have. So it's at that point, that you going to have to focus less on building up the attraction to kissing her quickly, and more on working on gaining deep rapport...so that she'll decide she either wants to see you again later or fuck you that night.

Papa (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author): I didn't have time to meet up with these girls later to hookup even though I got their numbers...I had more fun chillin with my crew. Maybe next time I'm in town. What's allowed me to make-out so quickly is that I know that I come across so amusing, exciting, and attractive to the girls I'm working that they owe it to themselves (and to me) to make out with me if I've entertained them for 5-10 minutes. This is the frame from which I work because I honestly believe that I'm the most exciting guy that these girls will meet. The soul-gazing routine is simply talking about connections between the soul while applying very sexual kino . I place the girls hands into a clasped position...then I wrap my hands around hers...and pull her closer and closer to me while talking about connections between the souls and positive energy. Here's a few things though to that you can enjoy tonight...[from Slippery] One of my favorite negs from the seminar: "I can't believe you said that...until you said that I thought there was really something that could happen between us...you had to go and screw it up." Second, if a girl asks how old you are, reply: "Old enough...so if you take me home...you won't go to jail." Third, if a girl asks what you do, respond: "Oh. You mean apart from being deliciously hot and incredibly sexy!" [pause] "You probably think you don't even have a chance with me, eh?" [smile] Finally, if a girl refuses to give you her phone number, try using this... her: You can't have it...bla bla bla you: What?!? Do you not give your phone number to the pizza guy when you order a pizza? her: Sure. Of course I do that. you: Great. Then give me your phone number and we'll order pizza together.

Slippery: I was asked to speak at and I shared something at David DeAngelo's seminar that is far more important than just techniques. And this is in my opinion the "essence" of success with girls and in life. And this is the way of the most successful people I know. The point I made was that for me this is more about becoming great and fearless in life. Rather than just in the area of girls. To be able to bring more to every human interaction I have. More joy, more passion and compassion, more life, more wealth, health and happiness. In other words, to become a better person and create success as a result of who I am. To inspire every person to see more beauty and potential within themselves. To believe in themselves and to maybe just touch them in a way that transforms their life forever for the better after they have met me. I had a homeless man ask me for money on Sunset on Saturday night (right in the midst of all the night action) . . . I looked at him in the eyes and said "I travel a lot and meet a lot of people . . . but there is something about you that tells me you are capable of so much more than asking people for change. You have so much more potential than that, it's like you are destined for much more . . . How did you ever get to be here?" This is a pre-thought "script" I thought out after feeling un-easy about just giving homeless people money. He stopped, looked at me and went silent for a moment, then he said . . . "Thank you so much for telling me that. You know ever since I was small, all I was told was that I would never amount to anything. But you are the first person to believe in me. Thank you for that. What's your name?" I have done this several times and learned some amazing life lessons as a result. I do the same thing with girls/women. I ask them about my ideas and for their opinion on what they think about guys approaching, what they hate, like, etc. I test my ideas,write them down and practice until they "become" me. Ultimately the results only come by being the person you need to be to attract the sorts of girls you want. If girls treat you badly, or anyone else for that matter,or you have any problem with them, it's because you are the problem. You change and bingo ..the problems disappear. I have a response to most daily interactions with girls and people generally that is different, funny, playful and gets me remembered. I look at myself as a flame that leaves behind a trail of sparks that start the fires of passion, love, wealth, health and compassion. I bring joy where there is sadness, peace where there is war, wealth where there is poverty (both monetary and personal or spiritual) health where there is sickness and love where there is hate. By doing this I don't need no drugs or alcohol, even though I am often asked if I am on drugs, because I seem so happy. But this was simply a decision to be all those things. In the area of girls I was always the "nice" guy. Of course this does not create passion or attraction, so I decided to become a bad boy (within the above principles of life). I tease, I play, I tell them who I am and what I want . . . always playfully, never angry if I get a negative response . . . For example, when I do my Fairy card mind-reading or palm reading and I get asked about how I learned to "read" cards, people or palms I say . . . " I don't really know anything about it, I just use this to pick up girls . . . (pause) . . . . is it working?" This always gets a laugh and is honest. Then I add that "I am very intuitive and can pick up on people's energy . . . (Which I now am and can). I am always looking to push the envelope and say things like. . . "Wow, you have this upward lift on your relationship line . . . have you ever had sex in an elevator?" (Laughs, no) "Well would you like to?" Today at lunch I teased the waitresses . . . "We want the good looking section, please" "Hey, no groping" (after she touched me). She said she cooked the meals, I said . . . "You did? ok, that's it I am going to marry you and you can cook for me all the time." She said she was already married, I said, "That's fine, get a divorce then.You can't do better than me." And so it goes . . . I have a lot of fun and my days are filled with great interactions and opportunities everywhere, without really even trying too hard anymore. This has also transferred into my business. I am very, very, very good because I do all the funny stuff even when talking about tens of thousands of dollars decisions. People love it. The message in all of this is to make the decision to become the most committed and best person you can and then stick with your decision no matter what. And don't expect too much in the short term but know that long term you really can change yourself and the world around you. With girls and every other area also. That's it for now . . . Hope you all find this helpful.

TylerDurden (Tyler's posts are reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author): how to pickup: bodylanguage: cold approaches: You spot a chick you want. Now the most important thing is how you face her. You roll up, and you don't face her until she is facing you. That means, if she is turned totally away from you, you literally turn your neck entirely backwards while you talk, and only turn when she turns. Then, as she says stuff that she perceives as you being impressed by, you then turn to face her. This causes her to have the perception that 1) you are not needy/desperate/lame 2) she said something worth you staying Have you ever won some stupid contest for a Cracker-jack prize or some shit, and went and claimed it??? Even though if you had already owned it, and forgot it at the store, you never would have gone to even pick it up cause its so lame.. but still, since you won it, you go pick it up??? That's what this is like. Give her the impression that you're only staying to talk because she said something that interested you to stay. Again, do this by only turning once she is turning first. The only exception is you can do little tests, like turning quickly towards her, to see if she'll bite and turn herself. make her try to get rapport with you. Then, after you get that, then start mirroring her and all that shit. Mirroring is fantastic for getting deep rapport. Finally, when you phase shift, use very sexual body language. The sequence in my "gear shifting" post was: -C&F until she tries to get rapport with "what's your name" or some variant -rapport -phase shift So you turn away and make her try to get rapport with this cocky/funny guy, then you turn towards her normally, then when you phase shift you do the sexy body language ( EC , triangular gazing, sidelong glances, lip licking, hair sifting, open palms, soft tonality, etc., etc.) warm approaches: If you have ai (approach invitation), then it is ok to use a more direct body language, or even the "hi" opener. On warm approaches, feel free to go into phase shift body language right away, if she's comfortable with it. ------- openers: For non-club PU (my absolute expertise, although my club game is getting kinda tight non-club is still way better), experiment with projecting value in your opener. That means that what you do/say projects value to the chick, right off the opener. Some things of value to chicks are: -fun -imaginative -funny -intriguing -frame-setting (sets challenges right off the opener) -opinion - kino /dominance-establishing -role playing Here are some quick examples, although I could go on all day on this. fun: "Hey, check out that kid on Santa's lap.. wow, remember when x,y,z childhood memories??" imaginative: "Whoa, that is a nice aquarium.. look at that.. omg, we should totally hit up the bio-chem department, and get shrunk down like barbie and ken.. then we could swim around behind that cora
l right there.. see that.. and totally go on like an underwater adventure like in the Little Mermaid.. don't get any ideas though, Ken dolls do not come fully equipped" (this reverses the frame at the end as well as an added benefit) funny: (pick up the lamest cd in the store, like something totally ridiculous) "omg.. omg.. this cd is fucking A-W-E-S-O-M-E..... pause for effect while she is gauging if you're serious...... hahahhahahahaha" (so you just break out laughing, but not too obnoxious.. laughter is contagious, so take advantage) You can use the same formula with cat food in a grocery store, or whatever.. Humour = stuff that doesn't go together. intriguing: "I just saw the most fascinating thing.. In this newspaper article (whatever, Jamie Lee Curtis story about her fatness or whatever)" (Ricki Lake even qualifies under this category, although I don't use it myself) fr
ame-setting: "Damn.. I-am-sick of this cafeteria food.. do you know how to cook? no??
ok we're broken up then, I'm going to find a woman who can cook.. (while she cracks up, talk to another chick)... ok, so you can't cook.. well, what else do you have going for you??? are you adventurous?" (transition to Swinggcat style qualifying) Again, you're qualifying her right off the opener. This is very powerful... more than stupid "hi, I want to meet you" opinion: "Do girls think that David Bowie is hot?" (better than "hi", because she actually enjoys giving her opinion on stupid shit like this) kino /dominance-establishing: Whack her with a magazine... tap her.. as she walks towards you, make funny faces, and if she returns them then pretend to punch her while you grab her around her waist and start walking with her "you're cuuuuute.. you'll make a nice new girlfriend, I think.." (Zan style line).. Follow this with qualifying "wait a sec though, can you cook?" and you are motherfucking iiiiiinnnnnn l
ike flyyyynn baby!!!! roleplaying: This is my abso
lute tightest mall opener. This is SO fucking tight I guarantee nobody has tighter than this in a clothing store. Grab a stupid jacket off the rack, and say "whoa, this is sweet.. I should try this on now.. check this out.." .... then start moving to the mirror, and hopefully she'll start to come.. then grab back another jacket, the same one that you have. So now you both try on the stupid jacket, and look in the mirror as you both look the same. Put your arm around her like its for a silly-picture, and look in the mirror together. Notice that this is extremely powerful, because she is looking at the two of you together, wearing the same stupid shit. It is roleplaying that you are like together or something already, like a stupid couple. Then say "we should steal these", and watch her reaction, as you either playfully go along plotting how to do it, or she says no. If she says
"no", then grab her stuff, and pretend like you're running out the door with it.. She'll tackle you, and then you say, "know what?? I
know a better way to make $$$.. I need a rich girl.." and start qualifying her, the same way as the "girl who cooks" qualifier from the frame-setting opener from above. ----- mid-game / early / attraction: ok, for mid-game, you have to gauge how much C&F and various other attractors she needs, in order for her to try to get rapport with you. keep fucking with her until *she* tries to get rapport. That means, do stuff like: -lying game -kiss game -cube/SFields/4Questions -calling her "bad" -calling her "Powder Puff girl" -a billion other Cocky&Playful things I do all of these C&F. The lying game I use to tease her and ask her funny questions. Kiss game is just pure cocky and works amazing (read post td&26 vs. some lame club chicks). cube I make fun of her with, and qualify her. then do stuff that
is F-U-N: -make her spin around and ask her if she knows how to dance (this on the street) -make her teach you her dance moves right there on the street -try on cloth
es together -teach her an ESP trick, and use it to fool people together -poke her and tickle her -steal something from her and make her try to wrestle it from you ------ mid-game / late / rapport: Now only after you've done this stuff, will she say: "what's your name?" "where do you work?" etc., etc., etc.. What you do is shift gears slowly. You answer with "guess" for the first two questions or so, and then you just ask only what she asks you. her: what's your name you: guess (but now switched out of C&F tonality into normal tonality, so its still switching gears, but not too fast since you're using "guess") her: tom you: no her: cliff you: no.. her: whaaaaat???? you: TylerDurden.. what's yours? her: HBslut you: cool.. I like that.. (compliment is fi
ne now, since she's interested) her: what do you do? you: guess.. (non-C&F tone.. normal tone) her: hahaha.. ummm ok.. accountant.. you: haha.. no I'm definitely not that.. I'm (x-realjob) Then let her ask you questions, and ask
them back, like normal.. no game from here on out, just normal getting to know each other. most importantly: G-E-T === R-A-P-P-O-R-T I mean it.. Get deep rapport with the chick, so she fucking loves you and feels connected to you. If you have laid the groundwork with the cool opener (like one of the ones I suggested), and the C&F shit that projects the value that you are cocky and fun and playful and challenging, then she will love and relish getting to know you. ***again, the cocky shit is to get from point A (indifferent to you) to point B (attracted to you). If you have approach invitation you do not need this stuff and it may possibly push the seduction backwards. If you have ai, you can use the "hi" and all that bullshit, to great success. The point is, though, get rapport. This is [e
m]key[/em]. When you do a pure C&F sarge , you must either fuck close, or accept the flake. This is because she comes out of state immediately after you leave, since you have no rapport. very few chicks will actually
meet you for a 'get-together' if you have no rapport, no matter how much C&F you did, and how much she was loving it. formula = C&F to get attraction, conversation/genuine to get rapport. Make her earn the genuine rapport building conversation by showing you how playful she is. The same conversation that would have been lame had you not laid down the groundwork, will seem charged. trust me, go try it. ---- endgame: To seal the deal, either use gunwitch method sexual state projection, or use a phase shift routine. gunwitch method close: Use triangular gazing (someone should post a link to a site with the explanation, cause I'm too tired to explain this in detail). Look at her lips and eyes, lips and eyes, lips and eyes.. Tilt your head, lick your lips, touch her hair, lips and eyes, lips and eyes, lips and eyes, move closer,
move closer, lips and eyes, kiss. phase shift closer routine: Are you intuitive? ok.. Are you intelligent? ok.. Do you understand to follow directions? ok.. Give me your h
ands.. Take her hands, and run some ring based routine, or palm-reading or some bullshit.. Then talk about soul-gazing and Romans and how they knew emotional crap.. Then talk about emotions and it being all you need in life, and do The evolution phase shift kiss close (check the Style/CPowles archive for it.. you grab her hair and say its a natural spot and feels good, and to do it to you, etc., etc.) then, either isolate, or talk softly and fun about your future get together. If you don't isolate and same-day f-close, fuck the #close and get a meet with the chick. Maybe get the #, but remember that she may have a live in boyfriend or husband, so do not push the #. Get the meet, and make it convenient for yourself to get there on the chance that she flakes. For meets, I suggest taking her somewhere that is absolutely cost free, and gets her adrenaline going. Try takin
g her to a strip where they have sexy/outrageous clothing, and try it on with her. ---- The confidence that guys like Twentysix or I have now, a
fter 4 nights per week or non stop sarging is probably enough, because we can follow it with tight stuff and have a PUA aura. But for any guy who hasn't laid many many chicks yet, or hung out non-stop with a guy who has and modelled him, this approach is bullshit.

This way, you project yourself as fun/exciting/challenging/confident.. Plus, by kiss closing by the end of the first encounter, you really set the frame for an early lay.

Just remember that party girls can omit the rapport, while librarian girls can omit large chunks of the C&F/attraction. Girls who are in between can just take some of each.

What I've written here is the real shit, field tested, and actually real.

The 'hi' opener is flawed because of what you perceive as its best attribute. When you go up and say 'hi', you always get a good response, because the chick will most often feel inclined to be socially-courteous.. Even if you bust on her for not being sociable, if you don't have the C&F frame down well enough to open using it, then you won't be successful in that kind of busting on her anyway.. It'll just trigger her guilt, and make her chat you out of obligation. This is what you do not want. (the only exception being is if your game is heavily SS / NLP based, and you can turn her on using patterns and hypnotic demos, which is not typically a good route to take as a primary mo) You want her shit testing you, so that you can use shit testing evasive measures to prove yourself to her, and get her turned on. That's one of the main benefits to doing qualifying right off the gate. You're even better using the kiss game[/
em] at the [em]very start of the PU , just to set that frame. Here's an example of a fuckup that fellow
ASFer 10magnet and I had tonight, PU 'ing a stripper where 10magnet works (he works at a strip club). 10: hey.. do girls think that David Bowie is hot? her: I dunno.. I like (something here that I forget) td: oh dude.. this is a bad girl.. her: ha.. you know me 5 seconds after meeting me (This is not good at all, because she's not engaged sexually.. again, her agreement is not good for the PU .. she is trying to chat us, which is not good.. but watch how we turn it around) td: Yeah right.. whatever.. you're like pg13 bad.. you can't hang with us unless you're for real.. are you adventurous? her: haha, this is a challenge.. and if I was dumb enough to fall for it, I'd probably hook up with you guys (this chick is clearly wise to the game, as she is a stripper) 10: oh, so I guess you won't be at the company picnic tomorrow? her: hahaha.. in winter?? 10: yeah, for real..
its at Nathan Phillips Square, tomorrow at 3pm.. td: yeah.. seriously.. show up.. we'll *be-there*.. her: hahahahha.. Then we stall, and she's
like "ummmm.. Monday tomorrow, eh? What are you guys up to" or some shit like that.. (this is reinitiating CONVO, which is a strong IOI coming from a chick like this.. unfortunately we weren't really " sarging " since it was unexpected as well as 2-on-1, so we didn't exploit it like we normally would) We saw the bartender at a restaurant later in the night, and he told us that she liked us apparently.. Had we just taken her answer to the David Bowie question, I can tell you from experience, there would have been zero attraction. Point was, I could have gone into qualifying her for making enough $$$ from her job to support me, and shit like that (this I've done a million times and it works).. Then we'd keep doing that, to keep the frame of a PU . then and only then, do you move into rapport building. The biggest fallacy in all of ASF is conversion rates. ok, here is the problem with the conversion fallacy on ASF :
Guys start PU 'ing women, but don't f_close them.. So they use certain lines tha
t get good reactions, but not lays. Then the post about them, saying a bunch of shit about how its a money line.. They don't close, so they extrapolate that it must be good, just because the reaction they got was good, even though it didn't convert to a lay. This is like wearing a clown suit to a club - it gets good reactions but no sex. An example of that is when an uglier guy says "I'm an ass model" as an answer to the work question. This is a good line in terms of reaction, but bad in terms of conversion to lays. (some guys do pull it off really well though.. I'm just generalizing) If you're ugly, its just reminding her of your shortcomings, and being a clown. This is like if you asked a fat chick what she does, and she says a "lingerie model".. this just reminds you of her nastiness even more.. So the "hi" opener is yet another
conversion fallacy on ASF . yes, it can help you lay chicks who give you approach invitation, or chicks who are on the same looks level as you. But it doesn't set the pickup frame
on super hotties, the way that the value conveying openers that I've put examples of do. If I were to do a test, where I'd spend 1 hour per day for a year, using "hi" as an opener on HB9+ chicks, and 1 hour per day using a challenging/qualifying opener, the result would be roughly something like: hi opener: -6 chicks opened and CONVO initiated / 0 snubs -0 chicks successfully PU 'ed - either fclose or non-flake meet (maybe one every few weeks) -5 HB9 chicks per year qualifying opener: -2 chicks opened and CONVO initiated / 4 snubs -1 chick PU 'ed (2 days per week) -100 HB9+ chicks per year (maybe you fuck 20 of them who the meet goes well, or who you don't screen for personality flaws) So your sp , imo, is that you associate opening with sexual interactions, when the two are not related. Notice that you're awesome with PU right now (according to Twentysix), but you're not laying
many chicks?? This is the conversion problem at work, and its an extremely common problem. [strong
]On kiss closes:[/strong] This is after two months clubbing experience, and no more. My word on this is not field tested enough to draw concrete conclusions. These are just my impressions at this time, and may change. ok, here's where I got this from: My club game was originally so weak, it was sub- AFC no doubt. Then, as I improved, I'd start kiss-closing more regularly. Now in my mind, I thought "a kiss close is guaranteed non-flake, because the chick has to justify having kissed you".. This was my strong belief, because in street sarging , when you kiss a chick within 20 minutes, she falls in love with you. What happened next, though, was that I got a bunch of flakes. I couldn't believe it. I'd never been clubbing before, but I just couldn't believe that chicks would actually flake on a guy who they had such good chemistry with as to make out with in under 20 minute
s. I was like "wtf is this shit??? these chicks are using me!!" If anyone recalls the fuckup report from Montreal, where the c
hick keeps kissing me and groping me, but won't let me close - that was when I first started having these thoughts. It was Wall_Street reply to me in that post, that changed my game so much. After Wall_Street's reply, my strategy changed, to no kiss close. The idea is this: -chicks love foreplay -many chicks love making out with different guys, every weekend I realized this when chatting one of my pivots. I was talking about how I kiss- closed these chicks using all this strategy, and she laughed at me. She was like "hahha.. if you wanna make out with a chick, just go up and make out.. kissing a club chick is nothing to brag about.. as if you used all this strategy.. I make out with different guys every weekend.. you know what?? So does x-girl, y-girl, z-girl (all who I thought were innocent).. you think you're so smart, but I bet these girls won't talk to you the next
day.. they got what they wanted.. the only guys who I'll hookup with down the line if I met them in a club, are the ones who
I had a real connection with, and didn't just grope each other like animals the whole night.. if I kiss a guy I know it's just a club-thing." I was like "wtf is this shit??????" Of course, listening to a chick is usually not good.. But in this particular case, what she said conformed to the model of what I'd experienced. It all made perfect sense to me, so I thought I'd field test a non-kiss close club game. So from then on, I used the "hands off the merchandise" line, and refused all kiss-closes. I focused on first building attraction, and second building rapport. I started getting girls chasing me, and wondering "who the fuck is this guy who won't let me touch or kiss him???" They'd chase and chase, and try to # close *me*. I was like "holy shit, I had a chick # close **me**.. wtf is going on here??? I didn't think this was possible.." And all[
/em] of them wouldn't flake. They'd [em]love me, and show up on time, and all that shit. The only flaw with this, is that you pass on many one-night-stand opportunities. Since
Twentysix nor I are interested in one night stand with club hoes, this method works perfect. Twentysix has yet to kiss-close in a club (other than the kiss-game which is not the same), and he gets dates all the time, with remarkably low flake-ratio. My theory (as it is not field tested enough, and still just a theory), is that when you kiss-close, you slot yourself into the S-U-B-C-A-T-E-G-O-R-Y of guys that the chick uses as kissy-face-buddies every weekend. My theory is that kissing in a club, is not alpha, because SO many Beta-males are capable of it, and do it regularly. My theory is that it is more alpha to make her want you SO bad (as well as all the chicks around her), and then tell her that she can't have you unless it's during the daytime, since you aren't interested in little frollicky club hoes.
This could come across like you're banging too many chicks already, or that you have standards, or whatever. I dunno, it's still a theory. The only way, is the way that commander zap suggested, which is to
get deep rapport and go beyond it. For me, when I kiss-close now, I go into damage control. all I am thinking is how to frame this as not just a club-thing, and that it does deserve to be continued. I talk about how I don't want to meet, and get her to convince me. Then I talk about how maybe she is right, and we shouldn't let social restrictions dictate that a club hookup isn't a real connection, just because people stereotype it like that. Again, not thoroughly field tested yet. Probably more field tested than 90% of what goes around the board, but still not field tested enough. I'd like guys to think about it and to give me your thoughts, but not to take it seriously just yet. It needs more testing by somebody with better club game than mine. Now for guys like Mystery and Style, this shit may not apply, because their game is SO tight. When a chick
kisses them, its an intense experience for them, because of the impression they've set. The kiss is like the climax of the adventure that they've structured. But
for for the intermediate level guys, it may be something to consider. All that I can report is that it works for Twentysix and I.

Tyler Durden: Cognitive Dissonance is a term that everyone here should understand. It's often used, but many people don't really understand it. Like much of psychology, it may seem "obvious" on the surface, but it's actually quite counterintuitive. imo, understanding what cd is, will allow you a better understanding of the "why" behind a lot of techniques that may work, yet the techniques are actually very different.

if you understand Cognitive Dissonance (CD), then you'll understand...

Why being a "jerk" works. Why "take-aways" work. Why C&F works. Why being an AFC doesn't work.

What is "Cognitive Dissonance" The Original Experiment: A psychologist named Leon Festinger had students do a really, really, really mundane and boring task for an hour. To be specific, they gave college students a board that had something like 25 sewing thread spools arranged in a 5x5 square. They were instructed to turn a spool ¼ turn, then go on to the next one in the row. When they completed the row they were to start with the next row. Then, when they got to the bottom, they started with another ¼ turn on the top row and continued that for all spools in all rows, and then another ¼ turn… (getting bored already just reading about it?! ). They had them do this for an hour to make sure they were really bored!!

When they were done with the experiment, they told the student "Hey, we need your help. We have the next participant waiting in the lobby. Will you tell him that this was an interesting experiment?" (and then they offered the participant either $.25 or $20.00). The next participant in the waiting room was actually a confederate and wasn't really waiting for the experiment. After the participant was done telling the guy waiting in the lobby that the experiment was interesting, they asked him to rate how much he enjoyed the experiment. Who do you think enjoyed the experiment more -- the guy that got a little bit of money or the guy that got a lot of money?

You're probably thinking the guy that got paid more enjoyed it more, right? If you said that, then you would be wrong! Why? Here's the theory. The participant knows the experiment was boring since he was bored while doing it (attitude). However, he also told the guy waiting that it was exciting (behavior). Thus, his attitude and behavior are inconsistent. And this creates a state of internal tension since we all seek internal harmony. So the guy tries to "reduce" the dissonance. The guy that got paid $20 says to himself "Well, I told the guy it was interesting because I got paid $20 to say that." In contrast, the guy that got paid little really doesn't have a good excuse when he reflects on why he told the lie so he interprets and examines his own behavior of telling the guy it was interesting and decides that maybe it was interesting after all. In order to reduce the dissonance, he adjusts his attitude so he is internally consistent.

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More theory...This section is from: www.ciadvertising.org/studies/student/97_fall/theory/cognitive_dis/Cogdiss/bg.html

Background Cognitive dissonance is a theory in American psychology, first expounded by Leon Festinger in 1957. He was a professor of psychology at Stanford University and was the first to publish any work in the field of Cognitive Dissonance. Imagine the following situation. Two adult male friends, A and B, are arguing about the conduct of the "younger generation". A maintains that they are a pretty bad lot, irresponsible, undisciplined, unkempt and indolent. B believes that they are no worse than young people of previous generations, and in some respects they are even better. This lack of agreement is what Festinger calls Cognitive Dissonance. There is a kind of consistency between what a person knows or believes, and what he does. Sometimes, people are not always successful in explaining away or in rationalizing inconsistencies to themselves. As Festinger claims, for one reason or another, attempts to achieve consistency may fail. The inconsistency simply continues to exist. In such a case, psychological discomfort prevails. Festinger replaced this "inconsistency" with the word "Dissonance". Festinger's Hypothesis • The existence of Dissonance being psychologically uncomfortable, will motivate the person to try to reduce the dissonance and achieve consonance. • When Dissonance is present, in addition to trying to reduce it, the person will actively avoid situations and information which would likely increase the dissonance.

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What the fuck does this have to do with Seduction?

A lot, actually. If you are trying to get someone to do something and internalize the behavior -- i.e. you want them to do it again and you want them to want to do it, then you provide as little incentive as possible (or as little external cause for their behavior). Why? Because then when the woman is reflecting on her behavior and why she did what she did, she will conclude that it was because she wanted to. And she'll attribute her behavior to herself (internal) rather than external factors.

Examples/Applications: • David D talks a lot about attraction and creating the feeling of attraction. Lots of AFC behavior like buying gifts, spending money, basically prevents any dissonance from ever occurring. If the woman likes the guy she can easily conclude it is because of the gifts/behaviors the guy is doing/showing (external attribution) and she then never has to turn inward to her own feelings. Without this internal search for how she feels, she is unlikely to develop that gut- level attraction.

Some Lounge members have discussed the problem of being "too good" in a set or "blowing it up" and then getting blurring when they go to follow-up on the number. Apply this theory and you have a clear solution: From the cd perspective, perhaps the woman provided her phone number to you because you were entertaining to her. The next day when she thinks it over, or when you call, she thinks "I gave the guy my number because he seemed interesting but maybe that was a mistake." Solution: Be less entertaining. Get her involved and invested in the outcome. Planning what you're going to do when you get together increases her involvement and increases the likelihood she will not flake.

Kiss Closes: Some girls may kiss guys in clubs just for "fun"--to get attention, elevate their feelings of being desired, etc. when she's reflecting back the next day on why she kissed you, she thinks "Oh, I was just having fun. I was drunk. It was for entertainment...I don't really like him." And she has essentially talked herself out of any attraction to you. By getting a Kiss close that you thought was moving things forward, you have inadvertently prevented them from moving forward! (how's that for a reframe!)

external factors: if someone does something that is too far out of their comfort zone or typical experience, they may chalk up the "why" to external factors as they provide a convenient excuse/rationale for the behavior. A lot of flaking may occur because things are moving too fast for the woman and that sets off her External factors trigger. "I was drunk." "That wasn't me; I don't normally do that."

Sex. Here's a great application. Wondering how to get your woman to feel great about performing the sex act of your choice? Wonder no more… Imagine you want her to love to suck on your cock. Scenario: She's giving you some oral pleasure. What do you say to her? " HB , I love it when you suck my cock!" No. Instead you say to her: You: HB , Do you like sucking my cock?"

HB : "yes."

You: "Tell me how much you like sucking my cock. I need to hear you say it."

HB : "I love to suck your cock."

You: (reward her with smile, anchor this with a touch, and ask her to say it again).

Net effect: when she thinks it over, she will remember what she was saying to you "I love to suck your cock" and she will think "Wow, that's kind of a wild thing to say for a woman. I wonder why I said that. I guess I must love to suck his cock!"

Lovedrop: >> Swinggcat: EVing (Eliciting Values): A couple years ago I use to do that a lot. But now I know that this is really just a sophisticated form of supplication. I mean it is coming from the wrong frame: you are giving her the opportunity to screen you. > mb: Yes, so true. In the past two weeks I had two women virtually walk away from me after I asked them what they wanted from a man. Since women tend to hold onto some ideal image of the ultimate male, having her imagine him only makes her realize you are not that guy no matter how rich or attractive you may be. As well, EVing also implies "tell me what you want and I will give it to you" which comes off as highly AFC and akin to a doormat.

Lovedrop: First, let me say that I respect both of these guys. I view them both as far enough ahead of my own abilities that I almost didn't even send this comment. Eliciting Values is a commonly misunderstood topic. In fact, aside from Negs , EV is the most commonly misunderstood subject in seduction (imho.) I'm still surprised to see this misunderstanding displayed by Swinggcat and mb. I hope that perhaps it is just that the wording is confusing, not their understanding itself, but I still feel the need to clarify because I think any newbie reading the above paragraphs would end up with the wrong idea of what EV is really all about.

The mistaken impression of EV is that you are asking a woman what she wants in a man. This is not true! A much better term for "eliciting values" would be "eliciting valued states." A few examples: bad / false: M: What do you want in a man? H: Well, I want someone confident and funny. M: [Tries to act confident and funny.] wrong wrong Totally incorrect!! This does not elicit the states that she desires. "Confident" and "funny" are not her values!!! good / true: H: I just love confident men. M: When you .. remember being with a confident man, how do you feel? H: Mmm, I feel safe. [Entering the state as she remembers it.] M: And what's it like to feel safe? How would you describe that feeling? H: It's like my worries or anxiety just floats away, I just feel carefree. [Associating more and more into the state.] M: That's right...all those things....just float away...when you feel safe ... with me ..
it's just so carefree...like a little kid at the park...running around laughing.
... Etc!! "safe" and "carefree" are values. "Confident" and "funny" are not values. The above elicitation doesn't even have to be about a man. It could be about what challenges her at work. It could be about her favorite hobby. It could be about how she feels when she is dancing. get it? It has nothing to do with what she is "looking for".

Eliciting Values is: 1) Discovering the states that have meaning to her, the meta-states about those states, and the sensations that trigger those states. 2) By asking questions designed to cause her to access these states, she experiences them and links them to you. In other words, EV is like patterning....you are installing states! Only, instead of installing a state that you think would be useful, you are structuring your language so that she will find the most useful state to install. This is very very different than merely asking a woman what she wants in a man. Too often I see people talking about "eliciting values" (especially on ASF ) and they are just completely out of touch with what it really means. The truth is, Screening and Eliciting Values are not mutually exclusive, and do not set opposite frames. That is, assuming that EV is well understood and done properly. Again, I would be surprised if Swinggcat didn't know this concept already...I think the wording was just bad...but this type of confusion shouldn't be propagated...it should be corrected.

Eric H.: > Qdini: Dreamweaver converted me into dis pimpology shit, you know what 'm sayin' ? Two mo' weeks of dis shit and I be a certifayable pimp. No mo' jobs.... no mo' edumacation...just makin' dough thru mah ho's. You know what dey say....Doctors need nurses, priests need nuns, an' ho's need pimps. Cuz if a ho don't get no instruction, she's gonna be headin' fo self destruction... "Bitch jumped in the car asked me where we goin'? I'm Qdini the pimp, bitch, you goin' hoin"

Eric H.: Most of this was quoted directly from the movie "American Pimp", just for your records.

GameMaster: ok, you know I'm always on the lookout for something new. Well, while at the dildo shop last week stocking up on new toys for Nancy's visit, I was cracking up with the chick behind the counter and asked if there was anything I needed to know about....she handed me a sample pack of Stamina rx. She went on the tell me wild tales about her sex life on this stuff and also handed me a pink pack for girls. I bit. Well, I thought it was going to be a fight getting Nancy to try this stuff but I got Felicia to read her the ingredients while she made a surprise house call (not yet) the other nite and so she was sold. Cliff, without offering a whole bunch of detail that you don't want to read lemme tell you, this is the best over the counter shit I have ever seen. One hour after taking 2 pills I was on cloud nine, and so was Nancy. It was like a mild ecstasy but better, more sensations. The peak lasted about 1 1/2 hours and Nancy said she'd never had a more powerful orgasm, and she had several. I'd have to agree with that statement. Phenomenal!!!!!!! Any sex shop should carry the stuff. The little packs are $3 for 2 pills. My 5 star endorsement. (Here is the pitch from the website, followed by another comment by GameMaster:) "Stamina-Rx™ utilizes a compound that stimulates the production of nitric oxide, leading to the production of cyclic gmp (cGMP). It is the cGMP which ultimately affects smooth muscle relaxation, allowing the penile arteries to expand and fill with blood. pde-5 is an enzyme that binds to and digests cGMP.If cGMP is digested too quickly, its "relaxing" effect on penile smooth muscle tissues will be reversed, causing the erection to weaken (in many cases this will happen so rapidly, it will appear as if no erection was ever present). Simply stated, pde- 5 can be a real erection killer. Stamina-Rx™ utilizes xanthoparmelia scabrosa, a natural source of Pyrazolo pyrimidinone (a core component of leading prescription medications for impotence). This component of the Stamina-Rx™ formula serves to effectively inhibit PDE-5 activity...allowing the body to sustain an erection!"

GameMaster: I just read their pitch on the website. ok, it does that, but there is a euphoric effect that goes along with all that as well. this stuff is a real buzz, it ain't just designed for hardons. But that may keep the feds away from their doorstep a while longer. I bought two bottles tonite. www.beefcakenutrition.com/stamina-rx-hi-tech-pharmaceuticals.html Retail price: $34.99 Our price: $29.99, 2/$56.99, 3/$80.99

Mark B.: Let's clarify the direct approach and compliments. These days I have cut back on compliments and only mention a woman's level of attractiveness only in the right context. I never make it seem as if I am saying "Hey, you're beautiful, let's get together" which is very shallow and superficial and rarely works. In the past I used it as an opener but found that I still got good results because I followed the comment up with a conversation that did not focus on a woman's beauty. These days I strike up a conversation based on the setting and only when I feel that I have a good connection with a woman will I let her know it would be a good idea for us to see each other again on the basis of the "good connection" that we had in the initial conversation. My approach over the years continues to evolve and not a week goes by where I don't learn something new about the process. My purpose now rather than to get a number is to meet and genuinely enjoy a woman's company and the interaction with her rather than objectify the process and go for a number. Women still know I want them and find them appealing but somehow I do not find that letting them know that you finding appeal in them serves to harm you as long as you do not fall into the trap of allowing her to control and dictate your frames and falling prey to and failing her shit tests. I'll also say something to her about herself such as "you have great positive energy" and then have her carry on with how right I am about my assessment of her. This I lead to some negs and deal with any shit tests that she throws out at me and basically try to have my way with her. I challenge a woman's beliefs and opinions but never put her down or demean her. I question her and her motivations and show inconsistency in her behaviour and put her on the spot a lot in terms of what she said and did and whether or not there exists an inconsistency between the two. Mostly these days I let my non-verbal clues let a woman know I want her and allow my verbal communication to let her know what I want and what I look for in a woman. As well I have come to notice the great importance of passing her shit tests in terms of not allowing her to set the frame so to speak as well as challenging and standing up to her flakiness, emotionalism, inconsistent behaviour and other undesirables. To my great and pleasant surprise women have showed an extremely favourable response to being challenged and one actually went to the extent recently of becoming extremely accommodating and pleasing in terms of buying dinners, clothes and inviting themselves over for the night. I believe that there are basically two ways to show a woman we find appeal in her. The first which virtually everyone either does or has done is to compliment her, touch her a lot, smile a lot and generally kiss her ass and make a great effort to try and please her. Highly AFC behaviour strictly on its own. The second and from what I have realized more effective way of approaching a woman is to show and tell her what we do not want and will not tolerate in her as a woman and with respect to her behaviour - flakiness, emotionalism, etc. The way I see is that when you let her know what you want and not want and stand firm by your position she has a frame of reference for pleasing you and knows what will and will not appeal to you as a man, sexually and otherwise. Here she gets a dose of what will not make you happy and how to modify her behaviour to serve you in the way you want. As well this second aspect tends to encompass an indication as to what you want in her and what appeals to you - passionate, good kisser, self comfort, highly sexual among others and also letting her know you will not accept a deviation from your standard. Most women tend to throw out massive shit tests at the beginning when they meet a man to qualify him as a worthy fuck buddy or a relationship partner. Often these tests consist of flaky behaviour (Dennis Neder writes about this in his book), lack of real response to you, questioning you, being illusive and general game playing. But the key is to stand up to her, challenge the hell out of her shit tests and her bullshit behaviour - tame the wild horse so to speak. Once you have passed her wall of tests you have her pussy on a platter. It seems to me that men who fail with women tend to do a lot of the first and little of the second, that is they fail to show displeasure with some aspect of female behaviour. They do so out of fear and worry that a woman will leave if they do not succumb to her wishes or run out of fear if they challenge her. I admit I have had some highly humbling experiences in this area and learned my lessons the hard way but they served me well and made me the man I am today. Cases in point I have been seeing a stripper from the Brass Rail in Toronto. When I first met her she gave me her number but did not return my calls as she claimed not to get my messages. I went to the bar and gave her hell for not getting back to me. She loved the attitude and asked me out for the following day. Then after a few weeks she began flaking out on me and missed a few get togethers. So I yelled at her calmly and told her if she wants to see me she better learn to keep her word and that her flakiness is unacceptable and to get her shit together. She apologized, bought me a few dinners, some clothes and invited herself over to my place for a few nights. But here is a classic failure from the last few years which smells typical AFC . Hot looking black woman, body to kill for with the fullest most fucking luscious lips any woman could have. I fell in "love" and went on a mission to score her. I bought her gifts, phoned her all the time, expressed my feelings, listened to her and did whatever she said only to have her evolve into an unruly beast. The greater demands she exacted the more I tried to please her and never questioned her ever escalating nonsensical web of lies, deceit, game playing and general disorder. Finally after getting nowhere she said she was not into me "that way" and stopped responding to me totally. My error here was in trying to please her rather than myself and not ever questioning her ever escalating unacceptable behaviour. But it is this type of massive failure that has set the stage for my current approach as the anger that grew within me provided me with the emotional need to find the right method. Now when I i.d. a target I know that she will shit test me and I get ready for it. I accept a degree of volatility and know I have to be on my toes. But I find that being direct or indirect really does not matter as long as you are able to either keep it light and deal with her shit tests. Telling a woman she is stunning is only a small part of the total interaction and I find really irrelevant to success or failure. It's the nature of your follow up conversation and style that tends to determine one's success. I have the following acronyms I use to remind myself of what to do. QQCT and ESSU which stand for Question and Qualify, Challenge and Tell - tell being tell her what I think she is like - typical SS mind stuff - "you seem passionate, like you like such and such and are this way and that way, etc." E for eye contact, S for sexual interest and the other S for silent pause and U for under-sell - that is go for what I want and then stop. This for me is a basic blue print that I have evolved over the years.

Maximillian Hell: What is the lipstick test? >Riker: Also, you may wish to quote women her age, or even better in a positive way, cite examples of you being involved with women her age.

Maximillian Hell: Brilliant stuff Riker! I'd like to hear an example of this quoting. I assume you mean something like "this woman I know, who is about your age, only goes out with guys that are X years older than her. She says blah blah...."? > Veroxii: And I do the tic-tac routine. So I stop, take out 3 tic-tacs from my bag... all very dramatic... put one in my mouth, really seductively, sucking on my finger. Then one for HB7 who really goes for it and sucks my finger for like 30 seconds! HB8.5 just laughs and goes like "omg!!". Then it's her turn and she does the same too! Sucking away.

Maximillian Hell: I try to throw out anything I've got, no matter how minor it might seem, just as food for thought. An Italian-born friend of mine related a funny story concerning his fiance. Before he started dating her, he was at a club with her and a native Italian guy. He warned her that Italian guys were PUAs --she brushed off his concerns. Later, he goes to go to the bathroom, when he gets back, the Italian has her fingers in his mouth, and she has a stunned expression on her face, like she can't figure out how she got taken so quickly. She is a solid 9, and apparently from a rich background. I tried to pick my Italian friend's brain for PU ideas. He is really modest and claims to have no game (he's a very good looking guy in my opinion). He does however say that he tries to be "the quiet, mysterious guy."

On another note: I always dread opening groups. I was getting IOIs from 2 HBs in a 3-set on the train, but their UG friend seemed hostile to me, thus I didn't approach. Dumb, I know, but it seems like I am always getting negged by UGs (also the rare times I get a cold IOI, I somehow freeze up, a weird psychological hangup I guess. Despite all the approaches I do, I still have some shyness issues). In this circumstance, it strikes me that approaching the UG would have made me look like I wasn't confident enough to approach the HBs , who were pretty much equally good-looking. Also, I somehow feel that if I am opening a group that I have to be too much of a performer. The trouble with public transportation is that you often have to get up and walk over to the target (s), seemingly odd behavior. Busier hours that are standing room only offer better opportunities for an approach, and I usually utilize these, but now that I am back in the US I hardly ever ride the train during busy hours.