The "Biggest Cat in the Jungle" syndrome

Enrique Iglesias appeared recently here in Montreal and a review of his concert mentioned how he brought a young lady up on stage. He asked her "Do you have a boyfriend?" She goes "Yes," to which he goes "Oh." Then she says:

"It doesn't matter!"

Success is the child of audacity / Benjamin Disraeli "The less you care about the outcome, the more you'll attract what you want. The more you cling to your outcome and don't release it and let it go, the more you will REPEL what you want". In other words, the MORE you ardently want something the more NEEDY you become, which simply reinforces at the subconscious level the very limiting/repelling "belief" that you DON'T HAVE what you want to have.

Prem: This is my story and what works for me: Before I state my beliefs, firstly, these are MY beliefs and opinions. I came to these beliefs through real world experience with lots of women and I am not going to argue about any of these. If anyone else has different beliefs, that's fine, they are your beliefs and I'll respect that. In fact I don't even really care why these work, all I care about is that it does, for ME. Onward. I started from a being pure chump with women that I desired (HB9s and above) to getting a good number of HBs over the past 3 years. I have tried almost every major technique presented on the internet (patterns, PU lines, magic tricks etc..), some worked, most did not, so I had to figure out a lot by experimenting on my own. Here's what I have learned and developed over time. First some background to provide a better perspective on my strategy. 1) I go for women who are 9 and above in looks, intelligent and reasonably stable emotionally. I stay away fr
om druggies, party animals etc.. My target range are women between 20 - 28 (I am 22). However, I have been with much older women. The oldest being 38, but a total knockout. I am above average in looks, I have been complimented on my looks a few times but I have NEVER been approached by a woman based on my looks. 2) I like to date 3-4 women at a time, these are women I enjoy being with, talking to and fucking (as described above). I am open to long term relationships as long as there is no drama or clinginess, but I am never looking for a long term relationship when I meet a woman, if I really enjoy her presence and it evolves into something long term, then fine. Most of the women that I dated and slept with ended up pursuing a long term relationship with me. I don't normally pursue one night stands, if it happens then fine, but I never push for it. Now that I've defined my target , now I will explain my character. 1) Honest and Gutsy: I am always honest. That DOES NOT mean that I tell the entire truth or will
answer any question asked of me. It just means that whatever I say is the truth. I like to sometimes do and say things that most guys might find uncomfortable or rude, I always like to see how far I can push things. 2) Adventurous and nature lover: I am into all kinds of sports. I really enjoy extreme sports like sky-diving, cliff jumping, etc..I also enjoy camping and hiking 3) Well read: Reading non-fiction books is my favourite hobby. I read at least one new book every week. 4) Love travelling: Been travelling all over Europe/Asia and North America. 5) Humour: Cocky and funny. (Just like David DeAngelo/Sisonpyh's method) Now keep in mind that not all these parts of my personality were strong 3 years ago, these were aspects of me that I really felt defined who I was. I just explored and expanded these aspects and I make sure that these aspects show in the way I interact with people. This also means that I made a commitment to myself to improve my personality, lose my insecurities and feel the very best abou
t myself and what I do. Now the actual techniques and steps: 1) The meeting, (get her attention): I meet women anywhere, I don't always go out with the explicit purpose of meeting women. When I go to a club/bar, I go with friends to hang out, and while I am there enjoying myself if I see a woman that I like I will approach her right off the bat. Now, wherever I am, if I spot a woman I find very attractive I look for something unique about her. If I notice something unique or different about her looks or her behaviour I will use that as a conversation starter and will try to follow up with some humour if possible. Eg: if I see a girl who is a really good dancer, I'll walk up to her with a straight look on my face and say: "I notice that you seem to have an aura of intense energy when you dance.....what the hell are you on?(implying she's on ecstasy)". The other day I saw a chick wearing very interestingly shaped sun glasses, I walked up to her, complimented her on the shades and then started t
easing by telling her that she was scaring people by wearing shades that made her look like 'Robocop'. If I notice nothing particularly unique then I might just walk up to her and say "Hi, You're shapely figure/sense of personal style, etc.. got my attention, and I am going to take a second to find out what you're like before I go and do ". Here is something very important: I have noticed that I need to interrupt the woman and get her attention before I can proceed. This accomplishes the effect of interrupting her state and directing all her attention on me. I get her attention by using powerful body language (chest pushed out, shoulders thrown back, relaxed expression), moving into her personal space and by catching her by surprise. This is similar to one of Mystery's routines: Pop right in front of the chick/group stick his hands out in front of them and ask for first impressions. If some one did that to me out of the blue, it would interrupt my mind from whatever I was doing/thinking and he would get all m
y attention momentarily. This also reminds me of what GameMaster said (paraphrased):"To get with a chick you have to shock her at some point to interrupt her state". This interrupting of state and getting their attention right away has made a major positive difference in my approaches. This also takes some practice because you need to have powerful body language to effectively interrupt her and get her attention. I also approach a woman the very second I see her, you can call it the 3 second rule or whatever but the point is to do it without any hesitation. This is VERY important. This can sometimes be hard to do if one is not in the right mood or state of mind. 2) Getting the digits: After I get her attention, I talk to her for about 2-3 minutes about anything that I find interesting about her or the situation, I get her to talk a little, if I did something interesting that day I mention that. I add humour and tease her whenever the opportunity arises. It is important to close at the height of the tension, w
hen she is the most excited or when she is laughing; it's kind of a take away, which leaves them wanting more; never keep talking until her excitement level drops. As soon as I see that her excitement level is high, I say "Nice meeting you, I have to get going, what is your contact info?", they usually offer their number at this point and I ask them to write it down. Now here's something important I do: I usually make them get either a pen or paper, or both. I do not provide both for them to write it down. I usually carry both and make the girl offer one of the two. If she has neither a pen or paper, I offer a pen and ask her to go into a nearby store or up to the bar for paper or ask her to look into her purse for one. I make her WORK, and they usually oblige, and this works well for me. I always get a number, email has NEVER worked for me so I always get her phone number. I am very COMPOSED throughout the meeting, I do not smile too much or act excited in any way. Kind of like in a James Bondish way. Notice
that timing is very important from the beginning till the end of the pick up: interrupt her state, get her attention, make a specific complement, tease/humour, get her to talk, when excitement is high just break it off and say you have to leave and ask for contact info. All of this is done within 3-4 minutes. 3) Getting the first casual date: I call within the first 3-4 days. After a minute of small talk, I tell them that I enjoy playing billiards and if she would like to join me for a game of billiards and interesting conversation on XX day at XX time. They either say OK, or offer another date/time OR act flaky. In the first two cases things are fine and I have a date. If she acts flaky, I have to deal with it and this is still an area where I am experimenting and need to improve. Also, a lot of the women I deal with are around 20-25 years old and are flaky by nature. I have tried everything I have read here or anywhere else and none have worked as well as I would like so I am still experimenting. 4) First c
asual date: For the meeting I show up a little late. Also getting them to come over to my place before heading out worked well (I did this when I used to live close to this nice cafe). At the beginning of the date I act indifferent. At the beginning I rarely make eye contact with her and act very aloof. I talk about anything that comes to my mind, joke about things, tease her a bit. I find that most women experience dates with men who try to be nice and too cordial right at the beginning. When I act kind of indifferent and aloof in the beginning it throws them off balance, takes away their power and makes them curious. I start to show more interest in them and make more eye contact as the date progresses. During the conversations I only explore and discuss things that I find interesting, eg: if she talks about her grandma and I have no interest in that I will change the subject, but if she talks about her latest camping experience I will show genuine interest and ask her more about it. I show a genuine intere
st in her, but only regarding aspects that interest me. I keep up the teasing and humour slightly THROUGHOUT the date. Basically, I show a genuine interest in her as a person while keeping up the mild teasing and humour. I keep the conversation POSITIVE and FUN and stay away from heavy conversations about marriage, relationships or overly emotional topics. I also do not talk about my personal history and do not ask her about her personal history either. If she asks me about my life and history I just change the subject or give vague answers. I usually never give a woman a direct answer. When she asks me a question I try to make the answer an interesting story or anecdote, while at the same time not giving her the exact information she wants. If you think about it, it is a power play. You maintain your power by not giving her information she wants in her quest to try to figure you out. Keep her guessing. I find that in order for a woman to open up I have to open up a little first. I tell interesting stories fr
om my travels in Europe and funny experiences. I talk about my sky diving and cliff jumping experiences. I feel that STORYTELLING is a very useful skill to have and it has helped me tremendously, not only with chicks but in other areas of life too. I talk about things I noticed about human nature and differences in cultures. I talk about the latest book that I just read, etc.. I also give her all my attention when she speaks and do not interrupt her (unless she starts talking about something I have absolutely no interest in). But occasionally I will look around and act disinterested, again triggering her insecurities. I physically move around and do something else. This is a VERY important part of the first date. Sitting in a seat and talking to a chick for more than 40 minutes starts to get boring and the excitement level drops down. So when the conversation starts to lag, I'll get her to come play a game of billiards with me. After a game of billiards, maybe go for a walk or play darts, whatever, basically
I get some physical motion going and do other activities to keep things fun and interesting. I challenge them if they act disrespectful or bratty. This I feel is VERY important. With this one girl, when I made sexual jokes she straight out told me "I am getting bad vibes about you", to which I replied "That is too bad. I am just being myself and I want to have a good time with you, but if you don't like what I am saying then you are welcome to leave". At the end of the date, she ended up in my room in a heavy make out session with me. Haaaah. Most women who are 10s play lots of such games and it is very important to be on the lookout for these games and stand your ground as a man and not even flinch. I openly talk about sexual topics but only a little, and usually the woman gets into it. I think it is VERY important to have at least a little conversation on sexual topics so that she is thinking about sex in my presence. But the sex convo is very third personish, just about sex in general and how people percei
ve it, but not specifically about her or my experiences. I also add some sexual innuendo here and there but not too much. OK, now I have a rule and it is that I have to experience sexual chemistry with a girl on the very first date. I always go for the make out and if she resists a bit that's fine, as long as she is cool with my stroking her shoulders/hair and holding her hand. Basically, there should be some sexual chemistry. Getting the make out is easy as long as you follow the steps to the kiss and here they are: 1) Invasion of personal space a little and staying in there to create tension. Basically after she is a little comfortable with me I will start standing closer to her and start gazing into her eyes more. I DO NOT touch, just invade her personal space when speaking to her and gaze into her eyes. This creates sexual tension. 2) Then I gently hold/massage her hand. This can be done by doing palm reading. I do it differently, I tell her a story that involves parts where I have to hold her hand and st
roke it a bit. 3) After I've invaded her space (only after she is comfortable with me) and held her hand, then I will stroke her arms/shoulders and smell her neck (without actually touching it: tension and arousal) to see how she responds. If she responds well then she IS GAME and I go for the kiss. If at any step there is resistance, I back off a little, give her more distance, chat a little longer and go back to that step. It is VERY important to go step by step, you can speed up the steps but you must not skip steps. I use cocky and funny humour even during the make out stage by accusing her of being too forward, etc...(thanks, Sisonpyh.) After I kiss her, towards the end of the date, I tell her straight out that I am not looking for a relationship and just want to be friends and get to know her better. This usually throws them completely off. At this point I tell her my views on dating and relationships, which basically goes something like this: I think people jump into relationships too soon. I like to s
ee someone for sometime before I even think of a relationship with that person. So at this stage let's just hang out as friends and have a good time. Now, I do ALL of this on the very first date. My first dates are usually about 2 hours long if things go smoothly and I enjoy her presence. If I don't enjoy talking or hanging out with her I will say bye and leave sooner. That is how I operate. I do not try to sleep with her on the first night. Here is something important that I do: I do NOT give them a good night kiss. After making out, they expect a good night kiss at the end but I do not give it. If they make a move to kiss me I kind of move away and joke about her being too forward. This keeps them wondering about me and curious when they go back home. After all this, how soon I end up sleeping with the woman depends on the woman and how things go between us. It varies, but usually within the first 5 meetings. I like to take my time as I only want to sleep with women that I like spending time with and want t
o keep around for a bit. I always keep control of the date. I direct things. I never allow her to control me. I throw her off balance and keep her wondering. I will challenge her and may even walk out if she disrespects me or acts in a way I don't like. Ok, so I have built strong chemistry and interest that will lead to sex soon. If I start seeing a chick regularly, here are some general thoughts on how to behave with them.. 1) I always treat them well. I see them as a friend and lover. So after I've been seeing them for sometime, I talk to them about very intimate things just like I would with a best friend, and I also show a genuine interest in them as person and find out as much about them as I can. Remember that I only sleep with women I enjoy being with so this is easy and pleasurable. 2) I always keep control of the relationship. I keep teasing them always. I always do what I want and NEVER give in to her demands. If they disrespect me I blow them away. eg: My girlfriend was more than twenty minutes lat
e for a dinner date once and she did not call to tell me she would be late, so I just cancelled plans, went to a nearby cafe and ordered food for myself. She went to my place then came to the cafe looking for me, apologizing profusely and without a valid excuse for being late. I told her that I have cancelled the plans and that after I'm done eating the food I am going to read a book. She has always been showing up 5 minutes early for all our meetings since then. OK, so that wraps it up. This list has been very valuable to me in my journey and I respect everyone who contributes to the list. The ideas of the following people have helped me tremendously: Svengali (old timer on asf ), Sisonpyh. Some of the stuff posted by Mark B. is very similar to my experiences. His beliefs on the importance of diet in staying calm and being in the zone are right on. I had the opportunity to meet David (from Montreal) and that was very inspirational. Sisonpyh is a genius. Cliff is a great guy for organizing this mailing list.
Good luck!

OK, now I have some questions for people on this list: 1) I remember David mentioned during our meeting that he was relentless. I am not clear exactly what he meant by that. Can someone elaborate and give some examples if possible? Cliff? Also can you give us some more examples of how David uses honesty as a weapon? 2) I have noticed that chicks who are between the age 20-25 are extremely flaky. Anybody have thoughts on this issue? Recommendations on how to deal with them? 3) One of the things that really inspires me to keep improving is reading stories of masters and their ways. Reading the story about Cliff's friend Claude drove my energy level ten fold for a week, I was meeting chicks all over the place. Same when I first met David and when I read about Sisonpyh's friend who "waves cartloads of women over". I would like to read more stories about masters and their ways. Cliff, Sisonpyh, anyone?

GameMaster:
> GameMaster: Didn't think you believed in that sort of thing. Once again, you're missing the point. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but women will ultimately be women, so what level of expectation do you think I should afford them? Women have an agenda....you are free to argue that point, which was my point to begin with, and not my "view." Only somebody with a Madonna Complex would take offense at what I said.

Ross: HUMANS have desires, wants and needs. And it certainly makes sense to be aware of another human's possible "Agenda". From there, it's a big leap to proclaiming that they are all heartless cunts without remorse or guilt. Surely, we can be alert without labeling 50% of the human species as somehow being irreversibly tainted. I suggest a book here: Prometheus Rising, by Robert Anton Wilson. Read up on reality-tunnels, the "sombutnotall" theory, and how what the thinker thinks, the prover proves. I'm the last person to advocate Pollyanna optimism, naivete or idealizing women. That doesn't mean I'm going to bend to the equally extreme and incorrect opposite and ascribe to them horrible characteristics or assume they lack all redeeming ones. I think the best seducers actually like women and I continue to both believe and maintain you can like women and still be very attractive to them.

Gamemaster: And I might suggest you read "Reality is What You Can Get Away With." Wilson's view toward women is more Crowleyan than an anything else. And while Crowley was capable of sustaining lasting spiritually loving relationships with a chosen few, he also used women for his own pleasure when it suited his personal agenda. I kind of like his style. And forgive me if I refuse to bend to an equally silly and incorrect socially engineered mindset that preaches that everyone is inherently good and well meaning. Like I said, everyone gets the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves one way or the other. Personally, I would much rather be pleasantly surprised to find that one of my HC's is one of your HB 's than the disappointment of the other way around. Do I hear applause?

Ross: How does it suit the agenda of a woman who lost a husband in 911 to continue to mourn him? Wouldn't the heartless cunt IMMEDIATELY start looking for a richer, better looking guy? Some women, like some men, are stimulation junkies. They move toward what is most stimulating in their environment, devil take whomever it may cost in broken promises, pain, etc. Yes, THOSE women are heartless, because the heart for them isn't what counts: it is the adrenals. Often they are pretty hot looking, but you can easily identify them and take it from there. Don't assume all women operate like that; they don't.

Gamemaster: I can appreciate the analogous "race" card of 911? Allow me to clarify the Heartless Cunt Theorem (HCT).....all women are heartless cunts. Under my system, women can play themselves out of the cellar of "HC's" and progressively move themselves up the ladder to Selfish Bitch if they give enough head, and are enthusiastic about it. Some might even reach the penthouse of "I don't trust you as far as I can throw you-you fucking whore" if they give blowjobs during football games and don't complain too much as I'm opening my 18th beer. You have HB 's I have HC's....maybe we're not that far apart. I think subconsciously HB was inspired by Heartless Bitch.
> GameMaster: But women that don't honor the relationship are invited to take a hike. Is that mean? Does that make me a bad person? Does that offend your sensibilities and sense of fair play? My world, my rules. Why the hell should it be any other way?

Ross: I thought you just said ALL women are heartless cunts. So, how could ANY of them "honor" a relationship?

GameMaster: See above guidelines. Full details to be published in a later release, a companion piece to Fucking Your Way Around the Zodiac.

Ross: You said yourself, you don't care if a married woman feels guilt afterwards or the affair destroys her marriage. If you don't enjoy it, then you certain aren't upset by it either.

GameMaster: OK, I never said that. Never said that. Do I need to repeat this again. Never said that. BTW, give yourself a pat on the back Ross. I used to have some real moral issues about fucking married women until you showed me the light. Thanks!

Ross: I won't shoot you. I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with your being indifferent to whether what you do results in them being hurt. You said that yourself. You can retract it if you want. Do no harm, if you can avoid it. If that means giving up some pussy, so be it.

GameMaster: GIVE UP PUSSY???? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND! Let's see, if I'm dating several women and I tell them all that I'm dating several women, and even yield to details if they insist-am I being cruel, or honest? I'm going with honest on this one. That being the case, if these women allow themselves to be hurt by this process that's not my problem. I suppose I should go back to the tried and true formula of lying out my ass and sneaking around.
> GameMaster: Look, it works for me. I don't hate women, I love women... ask anybody I know. The difference is that I don't allow myself to be shocked by the things they do, and they are capable of anything. Anybody want to argue that point? The fact is that women are NOT the saintly creatures being defended here...maybe my personal view is extreme (and I'll be the first to admit that) but they are not worthy of the other extreme either. Any argument there?

Ross: I didn't say they were saints. They are HUMANS. That means they are capable of the base as well as the sublime. Just like you...or me.

GameMaster: So what the hell are we arguing about??? I agree most women are humans, unless of course they are a demon from hell. : )
> Maximillian Hell: You're right, I can't figure out how to EV/RL without telegraphing interest, though once I kept up a very persistent and aggressive manner as I essentially "grilled" an HB on her interests. The next time I saw her, an independent observer said he really thought she was into me (alas, the BF was watching her like a hawk that night and kept CBing me). What keeps me from doing MM is that so far I haven't really been able to come up with stories that might fit into an MM style for me. Somehow, I don't think the proposed stories and intros would work for me. For instance, I don't think most of the HB 's I sarge are really into the paranormal. Also, men are typically hostile to me in most bar/club circumstances. Some guys on asf were saying that this happens to them alot too.

GameMaster: YES YES YES! It's what you project. I call it the "Biggest Cat in the Jungle" syndrome. The Goddess Lara Flynn Boyle had this to say about that..."I'm the kind of woman that when she walks into a room, all the other women automatically hate me!" If you project confidence, if you are comfortable within yourself, and if you have a fluid take no prisoners attitude you will eventually draw this type "hostile" attention from other alpha wannabe's that are breathing the same air. Women find this very attractive. I also agree with Vinigarr about women being into the paranormal or what I refer to as metaphysics. My guesstimate is about 75%. Most women are just naturally curious about this kind of stuff and it's an opportunity to display your intellectual prowess once you clear a few hurdles. I've found that light references to Astrology are a good way to introduce this direction into the conversation. However, if they don't bite it's time to move on to something else lest you be branded a Kook, a permanen
t state killer.

Maximillian Hell:
>Vinigarr: Let me tell you this; chicks are into the paranormal, the unknown, relationships, psychic phenomena, astrology, etc. etc.

Maximillian Hell: Relationships and the paranormal are not the same thing. I never disputed that they might be into relationships--you might note that Mystery keeps those two categories separate.

Ross:
> GameMaster: 1) I don't hate women, in fact l love women....even adore some on my frequent call list if you won't hold that word against me. However, I will not allow myself to be shocked or surprised by anything they do in a relationship.

Ross: Why isn't this sound advice for ALL humans, men or women?
> GameMaster: Just because I refuse to buy into the new wave of liberal tolerance and mandated "love your brother man" bullshit doesn't mean I'm incapable of sustaining a very intimate relationship with someone that qualifies under my strictly enforced rules! My world, my rules. Shoot me. And one of my rules is that once the rules have been established, the "One Strike" rule is in effect.

Ross: Well, I'm surely no liberal. I do think what the thinker thinks, the prover proves. If you go along, and your first and primary sorting criteria is "hotness" to the sole exclusion of everything else, then you are likely to select people who move towards whatever is most stimulating in their environment. I keep trying to make this point: it isn't that these people are heartless (though that is one way to look at it). It is that they only notice what stimulates them most. Of course then, once you cease to be that, they will move on to something else. I am 100% in favor of recognizing, clearly, whom you are dealing with and how they act in the world. I just think it is more accurate to view strippers, emotionally disturbed women who adore drama, etc. as being stimulation junkies more than "heartless cunts". I also think there is a relationship between ADD (attention deficit disorder) and women who seek out pain, abuse, etc. etc. They need this additional level of stimulation just to feel awake! I would cal
l it RADD (Romantic Attention Deficit Disorder). If a guy enjoys stimulation, great. If he enjoys it to the exclusion of other things entirely (companionship, friendship, fun, etc.) then great too. Just be aware of the other things that come along with such a lifestyle. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING.
> GameMaster: 3) "GameMaster is a spiritually unclean alcoholic and drug abuser." I thought this discussion forum was about women and seduction?

Ross: I'm just pointing out something: every human wants stimulation. SOME humans have an excessive need for it and they tend to select others who have excessive needs for it. Often, that excessive need extends to other things that aren't healthy. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING.

Adrian: Here's my review of David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating Advanced CD Audio Course: www.doubleyourdating.com/advancedseries/ Everything is neatly presented in an A4 binder, which includes 11 CDs stored neatly in sleeves in the binder; a track listing; all the slides from the seminar, three to a page and some miscellaneous stuff at the back, including David D's recommended reading list. All promptly delivered, of course. The audio quality is absolutely spot-on. Considering this is recorded from a seminar, this is amazing. Or maybe I'm just used to some of the somewhat muffled efforts that others have come out with before. But, you probably don't care about all that stuff ... nice to have ... but does the product do what it says on the tin? David (One of Ross' ex-students, I believe. I think that's him sitting at the back next to Rick on Ross' LA videos) has taken a very scientific approach to seduction. In fact, he'd probably prefer it if you referred to it as "Attractio
n", rather than "Seduction", as the whole course is based on his theory "Attraction isn't a choice". He starts by giving the listener a thorough background in various areas of scientific research from the fields of Ethnology, Psychology and Evolution Theory. A lot of this is in the form of quotations read out from books on David's reading list. Everything from the composition of the human brain, through genetics, to fish mating sequences. The next couple of hours are taken up with David's thoughts on The Inner Game. He puts a very strong emphasis on what you or I might call "Being in the right state". I suspect there's more to it than that when you really "get it" with women, but that's how I'm describing what he teaches. So, a lot of this is stuff about reframing limiting beliefs; the nature of luck and reality; self-image. This really seems to be one of the most important parts of the CD. These are the basics, without which you'll not go all that far. Approximately a third of the course is spent on The Inne
r Game, before the next third which deals with ... no, I'll let you guess ...Many of these parts are covered in David's book, but he doesn't belabour points that have been covered there and in fact assumes that you have read his ebook. Everything in The Outer Game is nicely explained and tied into The Inner Game, so it is still worth learning again, anyway. The final third of the CDs are the guest interviews from (ex-Ross student, of TroubleShooters and Magical Connections fame), Eric (Friend of David's), Rick (Ross' star pupil - 5 women at once; bisexuals speciality, etc.), Riker (Ross' online sarge guru) and Brent (Friend of Rick's). All of these guys are well worth hearing from. They really help as role models, which helped me to get what David is explaining about being attractive to women. Some of the things these guys say sounds pretty way out - they are, collectively, VERY experienced in seduction - but having listened to the first two thirds of the course you ought to now be able to understand where th
ey are coming from, and just why what they do works. Furthermore, I think anyone who has been paying attention so far would now stand a great chance of being able to replicate their successes themselves. I highly recommend this product. I think it is well worth the money. I like David's alternative "Attraction vs Seduction" take on some of the established ideas in this area as sets up the whole course to be very different from any of the more process based seduction systems out there. PS If anyone in, or around London wants to get in touch with me, then please drop me an email: adrian _at_ datahaven.co.uk ICQ #5618426

Mike: One thing I'd advise for anyone who wants to improve in anything is to ask and answer a simple two part question after each performance and that is, "What did I do right and well? And in order for me to improve, what would I do differently next time? Unless you did nothing at all (and sometimes even then), you can ALWAYS find at least one thing that you did right and/or well! Look for EVERYTHING you did right and well! It's important to build upon and CONDITION successes! SUCCESS BEGETS SUCCESS is another way of looking at it! This question helps us to be success-focused and oriented in our own experience! The second part of the question is "In order for me to improve, what would I do differently next time?" The beauty of this second question is that it frames everything POSITIVELY and that builds us up and strengthens us inside. It also helps us to correct mistakes or refine skills WITHOUT BEATING OURSELVES UP IN THE PROCESS! That's extremely important IMO! We always get to be on our O
WN side in our learning which is as it should be! This question came from Brian Tracy, another great success teacher.

Christos: This brings me onto Daniel's realization that there may in fact be a winning line. Are we out there picking up as many women as possible in some never ending constant stream, or should we be trying to locate a trophy of some kind? Can we categorize some as A-list females truly worthy of an LTR , or are we just big game hunters, gloating over a constant succession of kills? I myself am now at a stage where I am having difficulty moving up any higher without considerable extra effort. In order to trade up I need to go from medium level socialite to full on celeb (maybe TV presenter or starlet) and I was wondering what aspirations other guys have? Having started out on club chicks, I moved onto to the likes of perfume counter assistants and promotion girls. Perhaps it is because there are no such things as strippers in my area that I view them as rather "cheap" but I am sure there are others on this list that crave intellectual stimulation just as much as the physical kind. I agree tha
t strippers have great physical assets but in some people's minds 'exotic dancers" are not much more than a small step up from hookers. No offense intended, says I when it says that a good half of my friends still chase karaoke hostesses and second wives on a regular basis :-) Once you do have a very good quality (and here I mean much more than a superficial HB10), then moving into the areas of threesomes and moresomes becomes much more of a practicality. Here are a few hints that others might find useful. 1. Introduce personal fantasies into your sex talk as early as possible. As you get to learn her reactions and together your sexual techniques improve, encourage her to talk dirty to you about that cute little waitress that she caught you eying in the club. Once you are talking about it together it reaches a much higher possibility of happening in real life. 2. Suggest a few safety regulations if she seems a little nervous, e.g. that neither of you should see a third party without the other being there. Thi
s will hopefully give her some extra peace of mind. Comments? 3. Plan things as carefully as you would with any other desirable target . Do not think that the two of you can just go out and grab a waitress and then enjoy a triple religious experience. There again GameMaster doesn't seem to have any problems!!! 4. Catch up on a little light porn. Look especially for movies that have at least a semblance of plot and that involve 1M2F combinations. Try mimicking their frolics even. I bet Ross has something to say about this bizarre mirroring strategy. 5. Waking up with two girls is very different from waking up with just one, especially when one is your LTR GF. Make sure you choose one that is reasonably stable that could probably maintain at least a friendship after the experience. Think of all those wasted one night stands which actually counted for zip in the big picture. Those kinds of urges need to be quelled when there is a third person involved. 6. Make sure that everybody in the club sees you leave with
the most beautiful girls in the place on your arm. What is the point in being so successful if there is nobody there to see it? :-)

Gold Dragon Phoenix:
> Mystery: So let's get this straight. You are challenging the fact that people feel fear about doing something important that they've never done before? Yes in MY world and also in MY personal experience...

Gold Dragon Phoenix: I don't get paid to teach seduction but in MY world and also in MY personal experience....some people got really nervous before exams in school, some people got over their nervousness, and other people never had that problem. The same is true for the people I met when I was involved in live theater. Why should "opening sets" be any different? If performance anxiety is very bad, maybe hypnosis....or energy work....or magick....or beer will help. Sure, beer probably fucks up the performance, but the anxiety is gone. lol! Seriously, use whatever training wheels you need when you start, but my own personal suggestion is to ditch all of the gimmicks as soon as possible. Fake it until you make it, if necessary. Just know when to stop faking it. Disclaimer: no website....no seminars....no tapes....no dog in the fight.
> Ross: How does it suit the agenda of a woman who lost a husband in 911 to continue to mourn him? Wouldn't the heartless cunt IMMEDIATELY start looking for a richer, better looking guy?

Gold Dragon Phoenix: Is this rhetorical? I'm sure you're aware of the concept of secondary gain.
> Ross: You said yourself, you don't care if a married woman feels guilt afterwards or the affair destroys her marriage. If you don't enjoy it, then you certain aren't upset by it either.

Gold Dragon Phoenix: I thought you were big on the principle that guys are responsible for their own emotional state. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and vice versa. Women are responsible for their own emotions. I prefer helping women feel good. It help repeat business. But I'm not going to get upset if a married woman feels guilt afterwards or she lets her affair destroy her marriage. We're all adults here.

Mark B.: As much as we learn what to do I feel that there exist valuable lessons in also learning what not to do. I learned a hard lesson recently on the importance of being positive. I went to This is London, a night club in Toronto last Saturday with a few friends. During the night I had a few drinks and did not feel very sharp as I did not have a good night's sleep the night before. As the night winded down, I sat down on a couch in the upper level opposite to an HB10 in a gorgeous flowing dress. She looked at me and said "this is a nice comfortable couch, isn't it?" I agreed and we began a conversation. We snuggled beside one another to the point where our foreheads were touching as we spoke. She began telling me how she almost died in a plane crash when she was 13 and this put her life in perspective for her where she overcame her fear of flying and now wants to become a commercial airline pilot. She told me how she likes to sky dive and take risks. She commented on how she likes to shoc
k people with her eccentric behaviour and how deeply passionate she is as a woman. Then she began asking me questions about me, what I do and what is my astrological sign. Now from experience, I know that when a woman talks about herself in a positive light and advertises herself to that male as well as asks him questions about himself she has a high interest level. As well, our physical posture also indicated her level of interest. To her question I told her I was a Leo and she commented that she was a Scorpio. Then I made my critical error. I told her I dated a Scorpio for 2.5 years but that we had a very volatile relationship, we fought all the time and that it is not a wise decision to double cross a Scorpio as they will inject their venomous fangs into you when double crossed. Needless to say, she did not appreciate the comments. She said she had to go to the bathroom, excused herself and never came back. I realized what I had done wrong. On my way home in the car I replayed what I had said to her in the
club and how things suddenly took a drastic turn downward. I then looked back at my failed attempts successfully connecting with women and realized that times when I failed were based on some form of negative comments from me directed at the woman or just in general. It seems woman want and need a positive force in their lives and showing them a guiding uplifting light tends to make one look as the source of deep and positive emotions. Looking back, I also realized that simply avoiding saying anything derogatory about anything makes you look positive as well without having to act like an annoying Pollyanna. So harsh lesson learned as I feel I would have been able to take her home with me had I not fucked up earlier. I also realized how women prefer to be approached. Times when a woman has tried to pick me up in a bar or anywhere else it was almost always in such a way where she initiated a conversation with me about the setting where we are rather than tell me she wants to meet me. It is her attention that sh
ows her interest rather than showing it through some form of verbal expression such as "I like you" or "I think you are hot," etc. For this reason I feel that it's important to watch and learn how women behave and what they do. Women have commented that they wish for a female brain on a man's body just as myself included and a lot of other men out there wish for a woman with a male brain - fuck at the drop of a hat. As we have seen time and time again -conversation first, show of interest second.

SexPDX:
>CPowles: I must step in here and admit to something. I keep reading here about Ricki Lake and the Spells story here, and must note that those are not MM or anything. I'm sort of responsible here for the misconception. The Ricki Lake story is something I heard from Hollywood (Vinigarr on the SS list) and have spread far and wide. The Spells story is something that actually DID happen to a friend of mine. They are openers I used to use, share, and am phasing out. The truth is: MM openers are simply ones that come in as NON-SEXUAL and where you are NOT HITTING on anyone. They are not "Ricki Lake" or anything. The original MM opener was simply, "Do you think spells work?" without the story. The thin lies, sadly, are mine. And it's made me think about... LYING AND PU

SexPDX: The way I see it the choice to lie to a woman about anything during a PU is not a moral thing but rather a choice that is made that carries potential consequences that you have to decide if you are prepared to face. Such is the case with lies in general. Let's face it, we're ALL a bunch of liars! Any of us would lie to a particular person, about a particular matter, at a particular time, for a particular purpose. I myself do lie sometimes. Not as much as I used to, however. In PU , there are differences in the magnitude of lies. An opener I recently used in a street approach had to do with saying that I had seen a group of rabbits up the street and I asked the woman if that was normal for that area. I saw no rabbits, but the opener was effective in starting a conversation and we moved beyond that. I did not close her but if I had what risk would there have been in such a lie? Pretty minimal. How would she ever know that I never saw any rabbits? The Ricki Lake opener (which I have used several times) c
arries a little bit more risk because she is more likely to find out that you never had a friend on the Ricki Lake show. Still more risk was Chris's example of pretending to be the star sign that she guessed him to be. The extent of your involvement with her MAY become such that she would find out that was a lie. All this is pretty obvious, however there are other risks to lying in PU that the.speed-seduction.community does not often discuss. DeepBlue recently mentioned to me that when you practice talking in a contrived way during a PU to an extent you are just using a "hand puppet" that is getting really good at talking to people while the inner you does not develop because you are not speaking from the heart. To me this begged the question: to what extent are women attracted to the REAL me and to what extent are they attracted to the puppet? Most PUA 's will go for whichever is more likely to get them the lay whether it be the hand puppet or their real selves and there is plenty of argument for doing that
but my feeling is that if you rely ENTIRELY on the puppet you may get laid, may even get laid consistently, but you may also be gradually eroding your confidence in the real you as an attractive person. You need the puppet, you focus on improving and developing the puppet while you neglect YOURSELF. You may be standing in the way of the process that will make the REAL you become someone who is more GENUINELY attractive. THIS is why I too am looking to phase some of the lying out of my PUing (though I am sure I never will phase it out completely). Lying in PU is a good way for beginners to get started. However, the temptation to stick to what they have gotten used to doing, which may even be working, may not always be the healthiest choice not only for their PU success but for their self-esteem and development as a person.

Cliff's Comments: Do I even have to say that my vote is totally against lying? I know that there are guys out there that will say anything to get what they want (and, frankly, I enjoy reading their stories), but how much of an accomplishment is it to get what you want by having to be dishonest and misleading? That doesn't convince me that the guy's a good PUA , only a good con artist.