I made the preacher dunk me under in that big hot tub twice

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Gamemaster: Well, Eva and myself are having a good time down here in the bunker. Me and Goebbels just got done taking turns with her and then we slapped her around a little bit just for effect. And I called her a coldhearted cunt too in an unsuccessful effort to make her cry. Fucking bitch! We'll see how she reacts when Ebay delivers that fucking cattle prod I ordered off of my Discover card, by God. But first I'm gonna get real drunk and go looking for some peasants that I can beat the hell out of cause we disagree about the BCS formula or something. Die motherfucker....RAGE!!!

Time to hit the reset button and set the record straight. If there is a record my somewhat fluid belief system says they are destined to be corrected so if you will indulge me for a few minutes...... 1) I don't hate women, in fact l love women....even adore some on my frequent call list if you won't hold that word against me. However, I will not allow myself to be shocked or surprised by anything they do in a relationship. I personally don't think that's such a bad thing. Is it a protection mechanism....probably. Is that a bad thing....nope. Like most single guys my age I have suffered enough indignation at the hands of our female counterparts and unlike some, I don't like to be disappointed in people that I open up to. Shoot me. I don't handle disappointment very well and to me it's a distressing emotion. I have one standing rule with everyone new I meet and I expect the same courtesy....."benefit of the doubt." Sound fair? However, respect and trust MUST be earned. Any arguments? I made the comment that wom
en are basically soulless creatures semi in jest but now that I think about it I can provide a number of examples to back that up. Shoot me. Just because I refuse to buy into the new wave of liberal tolerance and mandated "love your brother man" bullshit doesn't mean I'm incapable of sustaining a very intimate relationship with someone that qualifies under my strictly enforced rules! My world, my rules. Shoot me. And one of my rules is that once the rules have been established, the "One Strike" rule is in effect. However. I do occasionally make allowances for people that are unfamiliar with such policies, and if I feel they have long range potential I will give them every consideration in an effort to bring about a balance in the relationship that is based on common ground. In fact, I have a girlfriend right now that I gave a lot of leeway, and I'm talking like 38 strikes, but she was coming out of a marriage of 13 years and frankly she doesn't know what the fuck she's doing. But, with a little tenderness, an
d sometimes a firm stance we have found that we really can enjoy each other's company in a loving and mutually respectful relationship based on shared VALUES.

"Oh my god, Game has lost his mind"!!!!!

Actually, I can spot a woman of quality with the best of em' and I will occasionally make allowances for their ill behavior if I think they have some staying power. I only have one lady that I use the terminology (gulp) GF with, and I have tremendous respect for her and I do trust that she won't intentionally fuck with my emotions, but she might. Shoot me. The rest of em' could disappear tomorrow and I could care less. C'est la vie. I think that means big deal? (Cliff's Comment: No, it means "that's life.") The ones that can't make the trip are the ones that do not display a subjectively adequate level of passion either in their personal lives or toward my college alma mater when they are lining up to play those cocksuckers from Florida or Georgia. My world, my rules. 2) "Gamemaster is a vicious, despicable, contemptible, unfeeling, inhuman parasite that feeds off the despair and pain of others and is only driven by the detestable need to hurt, maim, destroy emotionally et al everyone he comes in contact with
to satisfy his existential emptiness and need for (hang on, let me stop laughing first) exacting his own twisted version of revenge in order to feed his sick, demented, delusional self-image to get back at all the ex-wives, girlfriends, teachers, urologists, coaches, fraternity brothers, etc. even including Brenda Barnes (the cunt) who broke his heart when he was 14. What a piece of shit." (giggle snort) OK, I have no issue with this one. : ) 3) "Gamemaster is a spiritually unclean alcoholic and drug abuser." I thought this discussion forum was about women and seduction? I grew up in the 60's, what are you gonna do? Does my status as an ordained Santeria Priest and the city's ranking Warlock mean I am spiritually impure, or does that elevate a person to a different level? I don't know, I don't worry about these things, and I don't judge people on nonsense like this either. Remind me to tell ya'll about the time I got baptized in a Southern Baptist church! Obviously, that one didn't take even though I made the
preacher dunk me under in that big hot tub twice. 4) Uh, what else? I suppose I could entertain you now with my recipe for Chicken Fried Chateaubriand or something like that. Or, I could offer a glimpse into my personal philosophy which is that I think that everything that happens to me is semi-funny, whether some doofus agrees or not. So here are some free thought and association snippets that either prove I'm insane, or prove that the reader has no fucking sense of humor. First off, Ancient History is my real passion. You probably didn't know this but those dinosaurs used to stay in a pretty foul mood, I learned, and acted very rowdy when scantily clad blondes yelled insults at them like "Guess who's gonna be extinct someday, Mr.Ugly?" I also learned that the Greeks invented Gods, naked boys and the shot put, and thought. Socrates invented the first thought when he looked around and said "The mind is in the head, and why are we wearing all these bedsheets?" I also learned that Southerners invented laughter.
That's a long story and all I can tell you is that the Pilgrims missed out on that but it was probably because they didn't have full-length mirrors on the back of their bathroom doors so they could see how silly they looked in those knickers with all those buckles on their shoes and things. People that live on the west coast have shitty attitudes mainly cause the country was invented on the other side. I am proud to have a Southern accent and I speak pretty good American with it too and I am glad I'm not a Chinese Chinaman that has to learn how to talk in dots and dashes or a Gyptian living in a burnoose that is all the time carving hieroglyphics on a wall somewhere. Imagine trying to have a conversation with a hieroglyphic man. How long does it take to carve bird, rock, stick, doodad on the wall anyway? Be impossible to get a football score over there. But I hear pan fried cobra is pretty tasty. Secondly, I think it was a better world before a lot of things. The baseball cap on backwards, Rap, the Bowl Allia
nce. Your whole grain police hadn’t passed a law against any food that tastes good. Sausage and eggs weren’t a felony. A cheeseburger didn’t get you shot at. Hell, you can get arrested for food in your own home if you don’t register your low-fat mayonnaise. You ever had that stuff? Why can’t we get some scientist on a government grant or something to get to the bottom of this? That stuff just don’t ruin good tuna fish, that shit will poison a whole city! Thirdly, have the animal rights activists struck your neighborhood yet? I’ll tell you what they’ll do…they’ll burn down your house, set fire to innocent bystanders and all. They not only don’t want you to eat veal, they’ll put a bomb in your car if you don’t kiss a calf on the mouth and send him to Harvard! Can’t have sex, can’t eat food…the next thing you know it will be illegal to tackle the sumbitch with a football. They got it fixed now where it’s legal for fags to fuck each other in the ass but you can’t smoke a cigarette in the same room. Talk about int
olerance! Fourthly, what's up with this California cuisine? I met a guy named Jeremy Beal, a Calif. restaurant mogul that had revolutionized the BLT in Calif. In his restaurants you would order a PLT, which was pineapple, liverwurst, and turnips on Afghan bread, in the Bay area it frequently outsold his ‘okra burger’. I think he was the same guy that invented diet birdseed. Fifthly, I was having dinner with a developer friend a while back, one of those guys cleaning up on all the new money here in town. He’d invited an old friend from high school to join us, his name was Weffert Lorants - quite a character. Anyway, Weffert was explaining how he lived on a bad section of Tuckaseegee Road (crack alley) and that drive by’s in his neighborhood outnumbered the rest of the city by about 20%. So my friend Tom asked Weffert how much he could afford for a home. Weffert said if he could unload his house in Stunted Oaks to some fool who enjoyed being around random gunfire, he could probably afford around eighty-thousand
. Weffert also made the point to Tommy that he sure wanted to live in a gated community but he didn’t play golf and he didn’t understand why you had to be a golf nut to live in a gated community? (Did I mention that Weffert sort of speaks in tongues?) “I acky bo. Veepers arter oo sumpin fur boars” Weefert said. Tommy translated….I like to bowl. Developers ought to do something for bowlers. It was the inspiration for what my friend called his two-bedroom “big looking houses that ain’t”. Fake upstairs, 7 foot ceilings, kitchen opening into the “great room” which opened to the laundry room. Weffert bought the first house in Bowling Forrest and the neighborhood sold out in no time and I congratulate my friend and Weffert on being men of vision every Wednesday night at the State Line Arcade and Bowlerama (private members only). And lastly, my personal philosophy when it comes to women.....A man should never love a woman so much that he wouldn’t let a good friend fuck her. Light and Love

(Another riveting commentary by GameMaster follows:)

First evidence of the art of seduction in a Western ("3:10 to Yuma" 1957) This is the most beautiful takedown you'll ever see in any western. Glenn Ford is unbelievably cool in this role. This is the dialogue, I can't replicate the scene with words, I'm giving the guy a standing ovation for this one. Watched it 3 times this week and it just gets better and better. Felicia Farr was a major hottie. The setup....Ford and gang rob a stagecoach, he shoots the driver. Ford and gang ride into town, ask for the Marshal and send him and the rest of the town on a wild goose chase for the killers while they are having a few drinks being seductively poured by a bored Miss Farr. Posse rides out of town in one direction, gang rides out in another, Ford stays behind to chat it up with Felicia. Fluff fluff....he lets her ramble then reaches out and gently caresses her curly locks while she's still rambling:

Ford: Well...what's a woman for if you don't treat her right (turns to walk away) Ford: Any young fellows around here? (murderous tonality and pacing, amazing presence) Farr: No, they're all old. Ford: You must get awful....lonely. (Jumps on horse, thinks twice, re-enters bar where Miss Farr is minding the store. Saunters over, steps behind the bar like he owns the place, cozys up, corks a bottle of whiskey with Authority) Ford: You know ...you look awful skinny. Farr: (demurely) I feel skinny. Ford: I don't mind a skinny girl...just as long as she's got blue eyes to make up for it.....you got blue eyes. (aw man, what a one/two punch! : ) Farr: Brown (turns towards him) Ford: That's OK, they don't have to be blue. (gives her the LOOK, and kisses her - never even takes his hat off!)

There's another scene where Ford, wanted for murder/robbery (told you he was cool) is having dinner at a captor's house with his family and he goes to work on the guy's wife. Just destroys her. I can watch this over and over again. A shitty feelgood ending is the only downside to just an incredible psychological study of a real Bad Boy in spurs. 8 cartridges out of 10.

DrJay: Dwacon is absolutely right about shipmates -- I watch all of the dating shows when I'm bored because they're great entertainment and occasionally some hotties are on. Shipmates is the fucking WORST dating show on TV! But, as with the others, useful to watch AFC 's interact and fail with HB 's--useful reminder of things to avoid and you can think about how you would approach the situation differently to achieve a different outcome if you were the guy on the show. On several shows I've seen hotties paired with nerds. The nerds think the girls are nice on the first day. Then on the 2nd they reveal they're Penthouse Pets and even showed the guys their spread (one of them was a pornstar -- Cheyenne Silver). The girls act like they are even available. The guys blow it. It's a familiar repeat of AFCness. Guess it's useful to remember what NOT to do! Someone could write a book -- or at least a post -- of all AFC things NOT to do - just from watching these shows. Examples: · Acting overly and e
xcessively interested -- conveyed both verbally and nonverbally.. · Oogling her body. · Asking "Am I your type?" · Telling her stupid, negative, stuff about yourself or otherwise over-disclosing in a non-useful way. · Acting as if you're on an information interview and playing 20 questions with her. · Doing NOTHING to create any type of attraction. · Not using KINO when appropriate. · etc.....

Ross:
> GameMaster: Didn't think you believed in that sort of thing. Once again, you're missing the point. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but women will ultimately be women, so what level of expectation do you think I should afford them? Women have an agenda....you are free to argue that point, which was my point to begin with, and not my "view." Only somebody with a Madonna Complex would take offense at what I said.

Ross: HUMANS have desires, wants and needs. And it certainly makes sense to be aware of another human's possible "Agenda". From there, it's a big leap to proclaiming that they are all heartless cunts without remorse or guilt. Surely, we can be alert without labeling 50% of the human species as somehow being irreversibly tainted. I suggest a book here: Prometheus Rising, by Robert Anton Wilson. Read up on reality-tunnels, the "sombutnotall" theory, and how what the thinker thinks, the prover proves. I'm the last person to advocate Pollyanna optimism, naivete or idealizing women. That doesn't mean I'm going to bend to the equally extreme and incorrect opposite and ascribe to them horrible characteristics or assume they lack all redeeming ones. I think the best seducers actually like women and I continue to both believe and maintain you can like women and still be very attractive to them.
> Ross: Hey...PEOPLE (male and female) sometimes fuck OTHER people (male and female) over. People can also be loyal, kind, affectionate, appreciative. It sounds like that ONE woman you married really tore you badly in two, and then you made the mistake of taking on HER kill-eat-consume the other of the world. In other words, she is now running around inside of you, looking at the world through YOUR eyes, and playing the game as a male now consuming females.
> GameMaster: No argument on the loyal, kind, etc. As long as it suits their agenda!

Ross: How does it suit the agenda of a woman who lost a husband in 911 to continue to mourn him? Wouldn't the heartless cunt IMMEDIATELY start looking for a richer, better looking guy? Some women, like some men, are stimulation junkies. They move toward what is most stimulating in their environment, devil take whomever it may cost in broken promises, pain, etc. Yes, THOSE women are heartless, because the heart for them isn't what counts: it is the adrenals. Often they are pretty hot looking, but you can easily identify them and take it from there. Don't assume all women operate like that; they don't.
> GameMaster: But women that don't honor the relationship are invited to take a hike. Is that mean? Does that make me a bad person? Does that offend your sensibilities and sense of fair play? My world, my rules. Why the hell should it be any other way?

Ross: I thought you just said ALL women are heartless cunts. So, how could ANY of them "honor" a relationship?
> Ross: In other words, I understand attracting through being powerful, making no excuses, but just plain not caring (and even enjoying) whom you hurt because you believe the other to be irredeemably evil by nature is a way to spiritual death and self-destruction, my man.
> GameMaster: Where is this nonsense coming from about enjoying hurting people?

Ross: You said yourself, you don't care if a married woman feels guilt afterwards or the affair destroys her marriage. If you don't enjoy it, then you certain aren't upset by it either.
> GameMaster: Uh, thanks....I think. I honestly don't know how you mistake my indifference for rage. And it's only that indifference and my sincere passion for things that are important to me that give me an edge. Not one of my girls has ever seen me angry, blow up, react, or verbally abuse them in anyway. That, my man, is a control mechanism, and it's a function of self control as well. Shoot me.

Ross: I won't shoot you. I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with your being indifferent to whether what you do results in them being hurt. You said that yourself. You can retract it if you want. Do no harm, if you can avoid it. If that means giving up some pussy, so be it.
> Ross: I think David would shudder at the view that women are soul-less creatures without guilt or conscience. I don't THINK that is how he postulates about women. I think, ultimately, he likes and enjoys them...as do I, MOST of the time. I find women frustrating and confusing and annoying as hell at times, but MOST are not evil...maybe I am beyond hope here.
> GameMaster: Look, it works for me. I don't hate women, I love women... ask anybody I know. The difference is that I don't allow myself to be shocked by the things they do, and they are capable of anything. Anybody want to argue that point? I will hereforeverafter print in italics the content of these messages that are offered in jest. The fact is that women are NOT the saintly creatures being defended here...maybe my personal view is extreme (and I'll be the first to admit that) but they are not worthy of the other extreme either. Any argument there?

Ross: I didn't say they were saints. They are HUMANS. That means they are capable of the base as well as the sublime. Just like you...or me.

Joseph:
> Cliff's Comment: Mys doesn't feel that this is an overall effective strategy when dealing with "10's" not only because they are usually out in a group and rarely are out but they are not very approachable alone. But, in my way of looking at things, you need bigger balls to go up to an HB and tell her you think she's absolutely stunning or that she's a "shining example of genetic perfection" than to ask some guys or the UG about your friend's being asked to appear on the Ricki Lake show. Not to say the latter doesn't take confidence, but it's a lot different.

Joseph: With respect, Cliff, I think that neither one of these really has to be about confidence. It takes an absence of self-hate and mistrust of others, an absence of shyness, maybe. If I walk up to a woman and say the shining example thingy, and she gets pissy, then she's a bitch. Who cares? I don't want her anyway now she's just become unattractive. Same thing goes if I ask her some wheedling around the bush question about Ricki Lake. I'm just being friendly, it's not like I've decided that I want to fuck her yet.

Cliff's Comment: That's you. I can assure you, without any doubt, that either of those approaches I mentioned are seen as acts of great balls to a great number of guys. You may have a very useful attitude that this is not the case when it comes to you, but many men will go so far as to define "confidence" by the ability to approach and talk to attractive women.

Joseph: When I talk to a 10 I am testing her to see if she has anything else going for her than just her looks. Hell, if I talk to a girl I am doing her a favor. Women desperately want men to talk to them in a "real" way. Sometimes I feel like an asshole when I am too tired or just not in the mood to talk to them. All women are horny, all women yearn for process based communication, so who am I to be so egotistical as to not go over and talk to her? It's not like I have to fuck her, I can fuck anytime. I've been given this incredible gift of making women feel really good. Just because it doesn't fit my present agenda to make them feel good, doesn't mean I should be so vain as to not talk to them. With respect, I think that the statement that it is hard to approach a 10 who is alone is utter bullshit. I do it all the time. I do it when a 10 is in a group. If I find that she is a bitch then I might ignore her and give her fat friend all my attention. This is great because it makes me feel good to give a lonely
women some much needed attention, and it inevitably makes the 10 jealous.

Cliff's Comment: I think the actual comment was that it is rare to find a 10 who is alone; most of the time they are out with friends and are in a group. While I don't think that's always the case, I think there's a lot of truth to that.

Joseph: I also do this because when a 10 is an unfriendly bitch and is getting in the way of the particular communication and dick she needs in her life, she suddenly becomes less attractive than a fat girl. Self deprecation and unfriendliness are unattractive. Now I'm not saying that you should next a women just because she has some initial defence reaction, just try and use that to help her see the light and get through that so she will be able to experience what she craves so much. But you can tell when a woman is just a bitch or whether she just needs some coaxing in just a few minutes. Think about it, if a woman blows you off before you have even communicated with her, then she is sabotaging herself. You may or may not be an extraordinary opportunity for her, but there is no way she could know that until she has communicated with her. Funny thing is, as long as I have this attitude together with some rapport techniques, I almost never get a blow off on the initial approach. It has been months sense a 6,7
,8,9, or 10 has been unpleasant with me and I approach alot of women. I approach far more 9s and 10s than the others because I just don't have time to make them all feel good and the 9s and 10s are the ones who I allow myself to have sexual ties to (can't have sex with every woman you meet, you know) IF they have the other qualities I dig and IF it jives with the other stuff I have going in my life. About the hypnosis stuff - OK Ross has already explained that SS is not hypnosis. It's more useful to think of SS as a communication style similar to the communication style that the courtesans and geisha girls used hundreds of years ago before Ross was even born. It is a technique that the highest paid escorts and call girls use today. Contrary to popular belief, the geisha girls were not trained in sex at all. They were not taught any techniques of making love at all. Now, under the pretexts of Sapphism all women in Asian society were taught love making techniques by older women, but that wasn't limited to the g
eisha. What made the geisha girls different and more seductive than other women was the fact that through communication they were able to elicit powerful emotional states from the powerful men they gave their services to. When the king was with a geisha girl, he felt absolutely wonderful, better than he felt at any other time in his life. Having said that, I will also say that I do use hypnosis in some seductions, but you must understand that the hypnosis is not and never will be never was what gets me into bed. I have this skill that makes people feel really good. Why keep it from her just because I want to fuck her? Who gives a shit if the effects of hypnosis wear off in an hour? I don't use it to brainwash people, just make them feel good. When a woman goes to a spa, the general good feelings wear off a couple of hours after she comes home. But she goes back to the spa doesn't she? Wait wait! NO NO she wouldn't go back to the spa, because the spa didn't BRAINWASH her! I am sick and tired of reading ignoran
t posts by people who think that the only way to use hypnosis to become attractive is by using it as a brainwashing device. I don't even know how to do that.

Cliff's Comment: I think you are off on the wrong tangent. The comment about hypnosis wearing off related to making changes in guys to get them to feel confident to approach women - the discussion then went on to point out that Ross is not using hypnosis so that point was not relevant. But it had nothing to do with brainwashing women or hypnotizing them to get them in bed which is something no one here is advocating. Hypnotizing them with their knowledge in order to heighten their pleasure is another story and is a great pursuit (for more on this, see www.davidshade.com ).

Joseph: What I do know is how to make a person feel incredibly relaxed, how to help a person to visualize and tap into their own deepest fantasies, to experience a taste of that with me. That's why they keep coming back, because they don't know anyone else who can do that and who they feel comfortable doing it with. Sometimes I use hypnosis if I glean that it would help them experience something they want to experience. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I just communicate with them geisha ( SS ) style. Sometimes all I have to do is tease a little bit to bring it out their horniness and their attraction to me. They are all attracted to me already, though some of them might not know it yet. That's what makes it so easy. Of course demonstrating that to the hard headed is sometimes not worth my time. But like Ted Nugent said, "You can't eat ALL the pussy in the world."

When you meet a woman you should be testing her and screening her to see if she qualifies, not worrying so much whether or not this technique might work on a 9 or 10 or whether it might be only be suited for 6.5 to 8.76 range females. For an example, I went to a forest hostel this weekend and met a 9. Since everything was kind of in a group, I elected to just toss in cocky humor now and again instead of sarging her in earnest. I piqued her curiosity and started to sarge her. By the end of the night she had gotten unattractively drunk and I had found out other things about her that disqualified her. Next!
> Mystery: Interesting metaphor, equating short term "mind fucking" of oneself with "comfortable travel" and at the same time limiting our readers by increasing the concept of mere ANTICIPATORY ANXIETY up past "fearful state" on through the shear agony of having to "crawl across the desert on your hands and knees, half-dead and half-dying from thirst".
> Ross: In fact, it's an accurate metaphor for what many guys feel when they see a very hot woman they'd like to approach. For many it goes beyond anticipatory anxiety into full blown shaking fear or just plain not being able to speak or move. Now, I have a tech to blast through that.

Joseph: He does - I saw it first hand. I really thought that some of the guys who were at Ross's seminar just couldn't be helped cuz they had such amazingly limited views about women. But they were approaching and having sincere communications with beautiful girls by the end of the seminar. I myself have gone from only approaching women in social situations to approaching them wherever and whenever I damn well please.
> Mystery: Only insane people do not feel anticipatory anxiety when doing something they haven't done before.

Joseph: That's ridiculous. I hung drywall last week for the first time and I felt no anxiety or fear. Hanging drywall, talking to women, buying a new car, these are all just things you do as a normal sane human being. It is fear and limiting beliefs that attach some ridiculous meaning to talking to a girl. How have you been even rejected if she doesn't respond? What did you apply for? It's like having anxiety about putting a quarter in a slot machine. Pull the lever, if it doesn't respond, shrug you MFing shoulders and walk to the next one.
> Mystery: Self-hypnosis is for AFCs . It's the MAGIC PILL that sounds too good to be true because ... it IS.

Joseph: What pisses you off so much about self-hypnosis? Is listening to a song that makes you feel really good before you go out for AFCs ? Is taking a day off to relax and unwind before an important meeting at the office for punks and wusses? When an Olympic gymnast visualizes her routine hundreds of times before the event something for losers? Apparently not, because virtually all athletes are trained to do this nowadays. I would put some stock in the science that backs hypnosis and meditation and visualization up. In fact, these three things (which are all the same in my book) have been documented to put thousands upon thousands of cancers into remission.

Chris Powles:
> Ross: Mys, it is also a thin lie to say that your friend got invited to be on Rikki Lake or that your friend found some kind of weird spell in his house.

CPowles: I must step in here and admit to something. I keep reading here about Ricki Lake and the Spells story here, and must note that those are not MM or anything. I'm sort of responsible here for the misconception. The Ricki Lake story is something I heard from Hollywood (Vinigarr on the SS list) and have spread far and wide. The Spells story is something that actually DID happen to a friend of mine. They are openers I used to use, share, and am phasing out. The truth is: MM openers are simply ones that come in as NON-SEXUAL and where you are NOT HITTING on anyone. They are not "Ricki Lake" or anything. The original MM opener was simply, "Do you think spells work?" without the story. The thin lies, sadly, are mine. And it's made me think about...

LYING AND PU

When I first discovered this world and wanted to start talking to girls, I needed PRETEXTS. These were opinion openers in which you spun a story. And if the story worked, why not do it all the time? And if it worked for me, why shouldn't others use it? And then there were all the other little lies during a PU : fake stories that belonged to someone else; lies about how old I was; lies about my background so that I'd seem to have certain alpha qualities; pretending to be the sign that she guesses I am (because that's her ideal projection of who she wants me to be), etc., etc. And, damn, they all worked well. But every now and then, I'd find myself in a relationship with one of these girls, and all those lies would eventually be exposed and wreak hell. Now, first, is it possible to play this game entirely without lying? What is lying and what isn't, since your true INTENT is often being hidden? Is doing, say, a hyper-empiric demo designed to turn her on, but SAYING that it'll help her find greater focus a lie?
I'd like to phase the lies out of my game. And I'm sure a lot of us must tell them. I think when you DO NOT have to lie to get a woman is when you become a self-actualized person who truly embodies the maxim that people in your life are just guests in YOUR reality. This would be playing by YOUR rules, not THEIRS. It seems to me that David (just plain David, that is) is VERY clear: he doesn't hide his intent, and he tells the woman that she will be one of many in his life. I'm curious: Is it possible to truly PLAY this GAME without EVER lying, and how many of us do it? Note: I'm not trying to get ethical here: I'm trying to get CONGRUENT and EFFECTIVE.

Cliff's Comment: A couple of thoughts: Firstly, I read a book some time ago that was called something like "How to get anything you want in life." The whole book led up to a punch line that was that in order to get whatever you want, you need to be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to get it (not that you had necessarily to do that, but be willing to). Now I have met several guys that will tell a woman anything they think she wants to hear and I am sure it works with good regularity. Some of us don't have the choice about that (I would be totally uncomfortable outright lying to women although I have no problem not saying everything - I don't think anyone tells anyone everything anyway - whether they just met them or even if they knew them for awhile - and doing so would be foolish in my opinion. So unless specifically asked about something, I won't volunteer certain things, like age. I will do what I can to avoid that question but I won't give her the wrong number). But I think David has some g
reat ideas - not only does he use honesty to set down his rules and to be clear about what he is looking for and what he expects, he also uses honesty as a weapon! To give you a rough example (and, believe me, this gets very sophisticated) he might get a woman to agree that she's spontaneous. Then if she balks at sleeping with him the first night, he'll wonder out loud that he thought she said she was spontaneous. To be honest, however, I haven't met many people who can think like David and turn around discussions the way he can. And he also knows how to do this with charm, how far to push things, how much to say and not say, etc. He has tremendous intuition about which way to go also. But I definitely think you can play the game without lying - I have seen it done by many and it's the only way as far as I am concerned. To be a good liar you need a good memory. Raw honesty is also devastatingly attractive (by this I mean not just being honest, but saying things that are true but difficult to say or hear becau
se they are not necessarily politically correct.

Doc: My all time best Crash and Burn I was in Boston last weekend and had the opportunity to go out with Dr. Alex Bender and Tokyo PUA (runs the ASF site). Awesome dudes all around. This is not like my usual field reports - this one is about my worst blunder ever. But its sooooooo bad, it's great!! And there is some learning value to it... Dr. A has this glow in the dark ice-cube that he pops into his drinks - instant chick magnet. Together with his gimmick and my lack of fear we must have opened about 30 chycks. My usual opener is to notice something about a girl and bust on her about it - albeit in a very friendly, smiley, teasing kind of way. So we head to this one place and head up to the bar to order beers. While Dr. Alex is getting beers, I turn to this girl beside me who had her jacket on over her shoulder as if she was cold - no arms in the sleeves. So in a friendly way I say "hey, where are your arms?" as I squeeze her empty sleeves. She turns to me dead serious and says "I don't hav
e any, I'm an amputee". Cliff, she really was an amputee - she had no arms. I noticed that she was sipping her beer through a straw. Her friends all turned hostile and just started getting aggressive "What do you want creep? Why don't you just fuck off and go back to the end of the bar!!!" Yiiikes!!! How do you recover from that one? Dr. Alex hadn't heard her response so he didn't understand all the hostility. He started apologizing to me saying that people in Boston are not always that bitchy - I guess he thought it was kind of a funny opener - until I told him that she really didn't have any arms. I'm killing myself laughing now - but it totally killed me for the rest of that evening. I don't think I ever recovered after that!

Vinigarr:
> Ross : By the way, I hung out with a few guys and watched the Ricki Lake opener. It got girls talking for a few minutes, but after that things petered out quickly. I would think a laughing, joking, more "life of the party" approach would work better...there was a drunk guy in his late-40's to early 50's who looked like a regular and he had 4-5 hotties toasting with him. I don't know if he got anywhere with them...I think they were just getting drunk with him, but he certainly had their attention.

Vinigarr: I've gotta jump in here, being I am the creator of the notorious Ricki Lake opener (Vini takes a bow). You're right; a laughing, joking, life of the party, is exactly how you deliver this! Once you've got them listening, you display a sense of humor as it relates to the story, eg. "Who knows...it could be some big hairy mandingo dick, knuckles scraping on the ground, Neanderthal looking faggot.. and he's prepared.. he appears with a bouquet of red and white roses... iiiilllllll" From there the possibilities are endless. You can build on it, talk about attractions, connections, what you look for in a person. Even bust on her and tease her. Lead into another "funny" story that happened to you or a friend. Or, if they're a bunch of dead heads, eject. When the smoke clears, you're a funny, joking, life of the party guy, having a good time. More importantly others see that, so you've not only opened a bunch of people, you've opened the whole room. And that is social proof.
> Mystery: For all the psycho-babble that's been put forth in this circus debate ... gentlemen, if you are afraid to approach women ... I understand. I'm there with you. It's OK to be scared. But fear is not an EXCUSE not to approach. Smile big and approach anyways. AGAIN and AGAIN. "Repetition is the mother of skill." ~ Anthony Robbins.

Vinigarr: Hold on. You're not dealing with the same issues that Ross is dealing with. For guys to attend your training they've gotta have some game - you even say that in your marketing material. The guys you train are over their fear- mostly. Alot of the guys Ross fixes had crippling fear. I've seen it, and "just doing it" is not the solution for them. It re-enforces the emotion making it more painful to move forward. The other techniques work to get rid of the fear first and THEN work on the skills.
> Mystery: Sometimes the best way to win is NOT to play. And that is the case with this BF obstacle . Comments?
> Cliff's Comments: My latest explorations in this area (which, frankly comes up SO often that I think we do need to have effective strategies to maximize whatever potential may lie in the situation)

Vinigarr: If you've got so far with a chick and you are interested, then it should be for more than physical reasons. With that in mind, keep her around. Does she have friends? Can you make money with her? Can you hang out with her as a pivot? The answers should be yes. One thing is for sure if you're not in contact with her, you'll never get her.

Cliff's Comment: This one goes back to honesty. One of the things David will say to a woman is "What does a man need a woman for?" Whatever she answers, the correct answer is "To make love to." I like the idea of being clear about what you are there for - anything else is a bonus. Obviously if she has nothing else going for her, or isn't interesting enough to hold your attention out of bed, it won't last. But, for me, I have always found that if I wasn't clear about my intentions women would get weirded out to varying degrees and not feel comfortable.
> Maximillian Hell: You're right, I can't figure out how to EV/RL without telegraphing interest, though once I kept up a very persistent and aggressive manner as I essentially "grilled" an HB on her interests. The next time I saw her, an independent observer said he really thought she was into me (alas, the BF was watching her like a hawk that night and kept CBing me). What keeps me from doing MM is that so far I haven't really been able to come up with stories that might fit into an MM style for me. Somehow, I don't think your stories and intros would work for me. For instance, I don't think most of the HB 's I sarge are really into the paranormal. Also, men are typically hostile to me in most bar/club circumstances. Some guys on ASF were saying that this happens to them alot too.

Vinigarr: Let me tell you this; chicks are into the paranormal, the unknown, relationships, psychic phenomena, astrology, etc. etc. Don't confuse what you are into with what they are into. If you're saying you don't think something will work, it's because you are afraid to do it and see. Get some changework done and then go out and use whatever "fits your style" and then go back and use what works.