The Tao of Dating: Dating as a martial art

GameMaster: Clifford, I have had my lawyers draft this for me...to be inserted at the beginning of my posts. Thankee. : ) Disclaimer: This story is based on real events, but may not tell the entire story. So that if you read that I manipulated some poor girl, or punched somebody out, then you need to understand that they deserved it. And if you elect to take a self righteous moralistic attitude in opposition of the things I do then you are welcome to take that up directly with me to entertain the full story, or you can go fuck off. Either way is good for me. My generation didn't have Nintendo and being an anachronism gets me laid. And that, my friends, is what I thought this was all about.
> GameMaster: One of the guys in there made the mistake of calling me a communist one nite. He got decked, and I got suspended from the bar for a month. No biggie. Funny huh?
> Ross: Dude, if you hit someone because they called you a name, you ought to be in jail. If you did that to me, I'd move heaven and earth to see you prosecuted, behind bars and then I'd sue you civilly too. Jesus....so someone offends you and you think you have the right to physically violate their body? What kind of world-view..what kind of way to walk is that? I enjoy what you do with these chicks, but the violence at the drop of a word bugs me..honestly folks who walk through the world like that need to be behind bars and stay there for as long as they intend to live this way. What if someone said something about religion you disagreed with? Would you kick them in the nuts? Keerist.....

GameMaster: Ross A) I admire what you've done B) I appreciate you being the impetus for some necessary changes I needed to make in my life C) A lot of what I send up to Clifford are my own personal journal entries for future reference if I ever figure out how to make some money off of the crazy shit that happens to me on a daily basis D) I haven't explained all the circumstances of that dynamic, but decking a guy that crossed over into forbidden sensitive territory just seemed like the most natural thing....and I don't regret it. I don't advocate or encourage what you refer to as a "violation of their body."

And what the fuck is a Keerist?

To lapse back into something relevant to this list, I think my "world view" has a lot to do with my success and many of the girls have spontaneously offered to me that I make them feel "Safe." I'm not a violent person, but the difference is that I call people on their shit.

Ross:
> GameMaster Responds: A) I don't care. I made a lot of noise on the SS board several years ago about guys that were fucking married women but I've sort of changed my policy there. Sorry Ross. B) Women DO NOT FEEL GUILT. They are cold, guiltless, remorseless, frozen-hearted creatures and the last thing anybody needs to worry about is hurting their feelings. I know that may sound cold but that's pretty much how things are. Women have an agenda, you should also have an agenda. Cause I'll tell you, brother, when you're gone..... you are just a distant memory to her, if at all.

Ross: Whoa...personally, if I had that view of 50% of the world I would check out now and find another reality..just drop this body and incarnate somewhere else.

GameMaster: Didn't think you believed in that sort of thing. Once again, you're missing the point. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but women will ultimately be women, so what level of expectation do you think I should afford them? Women have an agenda....you are free to argue that point, which was my point to begin with, and not my "view." Only somebody with a Madonna Complex would take offense at what I said.

Ross: Hey...PEOPLE (male and female) sometimes fuck OTHER people (male and female) over. People can also be loyal, kind, affectionate, appreciative.

It sounds like that ONE woman you married really tore you badly in two, and then you made the mistake of taking on HER kill-eat-consume the other of the world. In other words, she is now running around inside of you, looking at the world through YOUR eyes, and playing the game as a male now consuming females.

GameMaster: No argument on the loyal, kind, etc. As long as it suits their agenda! I'm not budging off that. Your other comments are as out of line as they are off target .

Ross: Ultimately, people who cut themselves off of all possibility of intimacy, kindness, giving and trust will either somatize the conflict, look for more dangerous situations to cover or compensate for the emotional needs not being met, or they will use LOTS of drugs to kill the pain. (Booze IS a drug).

GameMaster: I suppose the implication is that I'm an alcoholic drug abuser, incapable of balancing a normal relationship, only get off on hurting people, and I'm running around with a chip on my shoulder spoiling for a fight at the drop of a hat. Well, come to think of it... Actually, you are way off base again, Friar Jeffries. Actually, I am more than capable of experiencing all these things you would deny me with your patented but flawed instant profiling. In fact, I value all these thing in a relationship but honor sort of stands above all else. I'm not going to get into the depth of what that means to me but women that don't honor the relationship are invited to take a hike. Is that mean? Does that make me a bad person? Does that offend your sensibilities and sense of fair play? My world, my rules. Why the hell should it be any other way?

Ross: In other words, I understand attracting through being powerful, making no excuses, but just plain not caring (and even enjoying) whom you hurt because you believe the other to be irredeemably evil by nature is a way to spiritual death and self-destruction, my man.

GameMaster: Where is this nonsense coming from about enjoying hurting people? To bring you up to speed with that poor girl in Florida that you complained I was "manipulating" and driving insane, I just spent a long and very intimate weekend with her and we are enjoying a very close, and yes loving relationship. I'm sorry if you didn't connect with my tactics but ironically (there's that word again) I did view her as long term, but as a project, and that was the only way to handle her. I promise you that you won't get any complaints from Nancy.

Ross: Look....there are "sweet-heart" swindlers. Guys who take advantage of lonely ladies with little looks but lots of cash..they clean these ladies out for everything they have and head for the hills. Yet it would NOT be accurate to say ALL or even MOST men do this kind of thing.

Yet what the thinker thinks, the prover proves...and thus you WILL create and find women who indeed WOULD tear you to bits if you do not tear them first.

You are a powerful creature..a man with a focused mind. I am never suggesting ever again letting yourself be used, but to be run by such rage is not good, not good, not good and above all is making the woman who hurt you most the architect of your range of emotions.

GameMaster: Uh, thanks....I think. I honestly don't know how you mistake my indifference for rage. And it's only that indifference and my sincere passion for things that are important to me that give me an edge. Not one of my girls has ever seen me angry, blow up, react, or verbally abuse them in anyway. That, my man, is a control mechanism, and it's a function of self control as well. Shoot me.
> Ross: I know a SUPER-hot work-out model etc who is married, HIGHLY attracted to me, and also married to a VERY jealous martial-artist husband. Believe me I'd love to dip into the well, but in this case, something tells me she would use it in the next fight with him and he WOULD kill me. Sorry if you've covered this..I think it can be hard to tell when to go for the gold and when to leave it in the mine.Comments?
> GameMaster: I ran into his girl a few months later and we sort of had this thing for a while but it's like David preaches....you have to be relentless. I couldn't articulate these things until Cliff broke it down for me but that's what it comes to. I don't really see anything in the way of my target anymore, just the target . I'd give anything if I was ten years younger. All you motherfuckers would be in trouble.

Ross: I think David would shudder at the view that women are soul-less creatures without guilt or conscience. I don't THINK that is how he postulates about women. I think, ultimately, he likes and enjoys them...as do I, MOST of the time. I find women frustrating and confusing and annoying as hell at times, but MOST are not evil...maybe I am beyond hope here.

GameMaster: Look, it works for me. I don't hate women, I love women... ask anybody I know. The difference is that I don't allow myself to be shocked by the things they do, and they are capable of anything. Anybody want to argue that point? I will hereforeverafter print in italics the content of these messages that are offered in jest. The fact is that women are NOT the saintly creatures being defended here...maybe my personal view is extreme (and I'll be the first to admit that) but they are not worthy of the other extreme either. Any argument there?
> GameMaster: Anyway, last nite was just one of those days where three beers and I was just hammered....usually it's 18.

Ross: There's a relationship to the drinking problem and the view of the other as utterly evil and incapable of anything but betrayal.....

GameMaster: OK, that one should have gone in italics. It's a joke, truth is I have a low tolerance and therefore I ration the consumption when the mood strikes. However, I will defend someone's right to go out and drink 18 fucking beers if they want to as long as they take a cab home. Off target and OT again! : )
> Mystery: So let's get this straight. You are challenging the fact that people feel fear about doing something important that they've never done before?

Ross: MOST people, without training, WILL feel fear. What I am saying is, with training, a person need NOT feel fear when approaching another person they find attractive. They can feel excited, happy, calm, but they do NOT have to feel fear. And they need not use "hypnosis" to get to this state either. I respect you have a different way of getting where you want to go. I've found a tech that licks fear and replaces it with a calm, alert, fun-filled state. I don't use hypnosis to get people there. And absolutely, approaches need to be practiced multiple times to build approach skills - mental rehearsal in a strong state will help the ACTUAL approach but it is not a SUBSTITUTE for the real approach. It's a fact, scientifically studied, that mentally rehearsing basketball shots ALONG WITH actual practice improves performance MORE than just actual practice. BOTH, working together, are best approach. If you have a way of doing things that has worked for you, I say fine. There may be easier ways that get guys up to
speed so they can then DO and PRACTICE in the real world the approaches you put forward as being effective. By the way, I hung out with a few guys and watched the Ricki Lake opener. It got girls talking for a few minutes, but after that things petered out quickly. I would think a laughing, joking, more "life of the party" approach would work better...there was a drunk guy in his late-40's to early 50's who looked like a regular and he had 4-5 hotties toasting with him. I don't know if he got anywhere with them...I think they were just getting drunk with him, but he certainly had their attention.
> Ross: I agree with all of this. Again, let's see Mys keep on clubbing when he is 43, 44, 45 years old. And let's glue my face onto his and see how he does RIGHT NOW!
> Mystery: Let's not confuse CLUBS with PUBLIC GATHERINGS. Go where the women are plentiful.

Ross: I like that. Here's a chance for useful dialogue: what are your favorite public gatherings that aren't clubs or bars? Request for 411, not an attack or challenge.
>> Ross: Anyone who tells you what is too good to be true is also telling you THEY are the authority on what is true and what isn't. And they are also saying that things HAVE to be difficult. None of this is science.
> Mystery: And those saying "that isn't science" aren't selling science themselves. Now with all that said and done, let's get back to business. For all the psycho-babble that's been put forth in this circus debate ... gentlemen, if you are afraid to approach women ... I understand. I'm there with you. It's OK to be scared. But fear is not an EXCUSE not to approach. Smile big and approach anyways. AGAIN and AGAIN. "Repetition is the mother of skill." ~ Anthony Robbins.

Ross: If you repeat a pattern with the SAME emotions attached, you will merely reinforce the emotion. Instead, why not get rapport with the unconscious and help it to understand there is no REAL danger, then re-align and re-channel the energies that need to be there? Create the state you want to act from, THEN ACT AND PRACTICE!
> Mystery: I have used BF blasters for many years and do believe perform them quite well ... autonomously. AND ... looking back at all of those scenarios, I notice a very important finding: THEY DON'T WORK!!!!!!

Ross: Maybe you don't have the personality to condition a woman to like you; so she either is interested right away or isn't. I think the BF thing comes up for lots of different reasons and lots of different times, depending emotionally and mentally what is going on with the girl at the time. 23 year old Cambria was STRAIGHT up about having a boyfriend (with whom she was hooked into financially, but found sexually boring). She hung out with me on the pretense I was going to help her with her cat allergy (which I actually did) and we still wound up getting together twice. She introduced me to her boyfriend, and yet got with me twice anyway. I didn't have to do any blaster...I just offered her something and tested to see if she wanted more. I've also used versions where the girl called me 3 weeks later and told me that she had decided the guy WASN'T with her in the way she wanted him to be and she would like to go out with me. This was with someone with whom I made my intent very clear; I told her if she wasn't
with someone who was with her in the way she wanted him to be, maybe we owed to each other to hang out/talk. She had just started seeing him at the time and brought him up within the first few minutes of talking. Yet another girl, Christine, finally brought up the BF the third time we hung out...this time when she came over to my house, and balked me when I tried to close her. It turns out he is leaving for Australia for 6 months and she is very conflicted over her feelings and what he and she might be doing with other people. So my point is, you never know where or when a " BF " may come up. Sometimes you are right; it means "fuck off - I have no interest and never will". Sometimes they are just being honest and are waiting for the lead from you as to whether it is a big deal killer or not and YOUR response could push it either way. The truth is you just don't know at first what it means. Sometimes BF "ignorers" work; not putting him down overtly but just acting like it doesn't matter or challenging her to t
hink about it a different way on her own. The only solution is to stay alert, aggressive, be ready for an opportunity and challenge her thinking in a vague way, without overtly attacking HIM.
> Mystery: That's right. BF blasters SOUND like they should work, but they never really helped me GET THE GIRL. Sure I would minimize the "I have a BF " line but wouldn't be rewarded with success. They are FUN to say but not REWARDING. Truth is, if a girl LIKES you and has a BF , she will NOT MENTION IT ... well, at least not til she's in bed with you and starts to feel guilt. If she says she has a BF , know that you came on too strong. That is HER way of saying NO THANKS. I know this because I've been hit on by girls I didn't want. So I'd say I had a GF. And then they would try to weasel around it. It was ... pathetic. As soon as she says she has a BF , the gig is up. No bother HIDING your interest with "oh isn't that cute, you thought I liked you." These are THIN LIES.

Ross: Mys, it is also a thin lie to say that your friend got invited to be on Rikki Lake or that your friend found some kind of weird spell in his house. They are maneuvers that sometimes work and sometimes don't. Don't get all moralistic on us, my man. I say again, sometimes the BF is brought up as an auto-pilot response and she will take her lead from how YOU treat it. The trick is to calibrate the other person and read the non-verbals as best you can.
> Mystery: Here is an exercise: imagine a 6 hits on you and is persistent. What would you say to get out of it? Put yourself > THERE in your mind for a good 10 minutes. You will learn A LOT. BF blasters DO NOT WORK. And this is coming from ME! Sometimes the best way to win is NOT to play. And that is the case with this BF obstacle . Comments?
> Cliff's Comments: My latest explorations in this area (which, frankly comes up SO often that I think we do need to have effective strategies to maximize whatever potential may lie in the situation) have me saying to them something like "you know, it's funny about relationships but in my experience people will often tell you that they have something going on but if you ask a few more questions and go a little deeper, you frequently find out that there are problems there, that the person isn't really happy, and that sometimes it's something they've told you more to get it off their chest and to put the blame on you if something should happen after." I can't say I've closed anyone using this yet, but the responses definitely indicate that I seem to be on a worthwhile track.

Ross: I'm going to start trying this one, "That's ok. I assume you're smart enough and strong enough to make your own choices..for reasons that are none of my business OR his...so...what was the first signal you got on the inside...the first recognition you had..blah blah blah (SRT for those who know my stuff). I've not used this one yet, but I like the notion of talking about "choices" without specifying which ones and then saying for reasons that are none of MY business OR his. This could lead to a discussion of what the motives and reasons are for choosing someone...a ltr , a fuck, a way to spice up an existing relationship......gosh, it almost makes me WISH the " BF " is brought up right away.

Dr. Alex Bender: The Tao of Dating: Dating as a martial art, Gentlemen. Lately I've been thinking that the game of dating and seduction is a lot like a martial art. Am I saying that, well, dating is a totally adversarial situation, yeah, that's it, it really is WAR man, right on? Umm, no. I'd like to think it's a little subtler than that. The idea operates on two levels. Allow me to explain. In a combat situation, events often unfold so fast that there is no time for considered thought, only for reflex. If you have trained in reflexes that will parry the attack and disable your opponent, then you're served well. However, if you didn't have the right combination of in-block, arm-twist, groin-kick and flip-sucka-over-back-and-give-noogie practiced and ready, then there is no way in hell you will be able to come up with that in a face-to-face combat situation. I don't care who you are -- there will be too much adrenaline and too little time. In a similar vein, when you are chatting up the hot ma
ma of your dreams -- who is armed with sharp wit, discerning eye and gaggle of friends -- you have to be prepared. Let's say things are going well. You've got great rapport going, and clearly you're enjoying each other's conversation. Suddenly, she comes up with "So, do you have a girlfriend?" Ah, a loaded question. A test. Well, do you? If you say you do, won't she just lose interest? OK -- so you *don't*? What, are you desperate then? Ahhh, a million scenarios swirl in your head, you hesitate and stammer something weakly. And whatever it was you stammered probably didn't do you any good. On the other hand, what if upon her asking the dreaded question, you smile slyly and respond, "My, isn't that a little personal?" Or, "No, she got tired of climbing the walls of the monastery to tryst with me in the refectory." Or my personal favorite, "Maybe." Or, "No more than six at any given time, but I'm still accepting applications. Would you like one?" Ah, suddenly the tables are turned, and you have turned disadvant
age into advantage. You've even gotten her laughing a little bit if you did it right. You see, the snappy comeback will only be there if you've thought about it before and rehearsed the response that optimizes your results. Look, buddy -- you're not going to go into a hardcore job interview thinking "I'm just going to be myself", right? If you do, chances are you'll never land a job and be eating Pop-Tarts for dinner for the rest of your natural existence. What you *will* do is anticipate all the common interview questions Mr. Bossguy will ask -- tell me about your last job, what's the accomplishment you're most proud of, why do you enjoy goat husbandry, etc. etc. -- and have answers that will convey the message *you* want to convey. Make sense? OK, now we're back at Bar X, chatting up Ms. Shirley Feintusch. "What do you do for a living?" "Where are you from?" All these seemingly innocuous questions she lobs at you. Mid-conversation, her friends start getting antsy and want to leave for another bar. Do you fo
llow? Do you stay? Do you wait to be invited? Do you ask for her number right then? Or: mid-conversation, just as things are getting so deep, so personal, some chump comes along, grabs her hand and says, "Shirley! Have a drink with me and Mr. Letcherus, the owner of the club." Ooooh, do you just sit there like a deer caught in headlights, letting this simian inflict a verbal orchidectomy on you? Or do you stand your ground? How? Do you do it combatively? Suavely? How? Ahhh, the options... The point is, unless you've thought of these scenarios (or experienced them) beforehand and trained in useful responses, they will not be available to you in a face-to-face situation when things are unfolding rapidly (this is why email is so great -- more on that later, too). So practice, rehearse, be prepared -- and be effective. The second reason why these dating skills are like a martial art is even more subtle than the first. Let me ask you this: in a combat situation, how do you assess your opponent? Most people would g
o by size -- generally you'll take him if he seems smaller than you, and let him have your girlfriend and car keys if he's a 400 lb gorilla. However, this calculus leaves out one crucial element: SKILL. Remember the scene in Karate Kid where Mr Miyagi took ten high-school bullies and made them rue the day they were born? OK, yeah, so it's a movie, but you'd still be an idiot to take on any five-foot tall martial arts expert just because he's smaller than you. The point is that the martial arts master magnifies his abilities far beyond what appearances would imply, rendering seeming advantages like size and brute strength less consequential. Awright, Mr. McZen Master, where are you going with this, you ask? Well, in the dating world, the analogs to size and brute strength are those so-called advantages men think they must possess to become successful with women: money, GQ-model looks, fame, fortune, kielbasa-sized appendage, power, etc. And my friend, today I am here to tell you: those are nice things to have,
but you don't need them to have absolutely phenomenal success with women. What you do need is skill -- and your living room is not where you acquire them. My seminar, The Tao of Dating, brings Eastern philosophy and Western science to serve you in developing and practicing those skills. You can get a better sense of where it all comes from and where it's going from the articles on www.TaoOfDating.com, especially the one entitled "The Basic Skill Set." Check it out, and see you in Boston.

DB:
>Gamemaster: Women DO NOT FEEL GUILT. They are cold, guiltless, remorseless, frozen-hearted creatures and the last thing anybody needs to worry about is hurting their feelings. I know that may sound cold but that's pretty much how things are. Women have an agenda, you should also have an agenda. Cause I'll tell you, brother, when you're gone..... you are just a distant memory to her, if at all.

DB: This is something that men lose sight of or are just not aware of, the agenda that women have and the absolute ruthlessness at which they will go if they want. Having been witness to a fair amount of divorces in my time, I know how nasty things can get.. HB 's especially are spoiled in the power that society and AFC 's bestow on them, and by God, they can abuse it..
> Ross:..so again, what is your intuition that tells you these women are ready for the affair WITHOUT them using it as ammo against a husband?

DB: I wish I had the answer to this one. A while ago I posted a PU attempt where I got a woman's number and when I called the cell, the "husband" answered. At any rate, I was at some bar last week and as I was leaving I notice this gal that looked familiar. I said, "Hello are you so and so?" She said yes. "Do you remember me?" She said yes. "Well, I talked to your husband. She goes "what are you talking about?" I said "I am nobody's pawn " and then left the bar. By the way, I looked at her hand and she had no ring on. Whatever is going on, it sounds screwy...

The following is a comment a friend of mine received by email from a woman he met (I have been asking him to elaborate on what has been behind the great success he's been having with women since his divorce):

Well I met this guy online see and everything he wrote made me laugh and then he sent me this really adorable picture with this other really adorable Greek restaurateur-friend and then he drove all the way down here and had the best butt and he kept touching me and he talked about his family and friends and work in such a passionate way and he kept touching me and it was brilliant really how he made me stop feeling nervous and found out all sorts of things about me I haven't shared with anyone else and I was sore for three days.

Dwacon ("I made magic once. Now the sofa is gone" www.dwacon.com):
> Mark B.: There are two shows called Blind Date and the 5th Wheel.

Dwacon: There is another that I caught while on business travel -- I think it was called Shipmates or something like that. Can't remember.

The premise had a man and woman paired up and placed on a cruise ship and they are videoed for three days. From what I saw it is always an HB beeyotch paired with an AFC nerd who goes down in flames each episode, although I've only been exposed to two shows. Anybody else seen that one?

Horn Dog: Let me say something in Ross's defense, if I may, though I have only read his first book (yes, I know, he has much, much more, but even his first book has improved me LIGHT YEARS beyond what I had been doing). When I read it I was already familiar with NLP and Ericksonian technique, and Ross's applications just turned on a lightbulb in my head. (Well dammit! I said to myself. Why didn't I think of that?).

For years I had actually been trying the Mystery way (i.e. get off the bench, get in the game, and keep swinging until you hit the ball). Problem is, that just didn't work for me. It bagged me a hell of a lot of 5's, but that was it. I was STILL, after all of that, terrified of HB 'S. When I read about Ross's confidence techniques and his whole approach to reframing the way we look at women, I took what he said, applied the NLP I knew, and rebuilt myself mentally from the ground up.

Result? I later found myself approaching a new class of women, doing/saying outrageously fun and sexy things to/with them, and bagging a lot of 8's and 9's. All of that from the reframing ideas in his first book. The reason why I haven't gotten the rest of his courses (I should, really...) is that so far I've gotten more than I can handle. Honest Abe, this is not a plug. Mystery has provided me many gems on this list, as well. But the bottom line for me on the confidence issue is Ross's reframing. Keep up the good work guys...

Cliff's Comment: I think your understanding of Mystery's "way" is a little off - yes he advocates persistent repetition, but there's a game plan involved that is a key piece of the puzzle and with out that just approaching a lot of women is not, in my opinion, representative of what he is proposing.

Daniel: Relationship....just the sound of the word brings some of us shivers. Ok, so I don't personally know everyone's opinions on relationships as they stand as an end unto themselves...but I tend to be of the belief that if you keep the strength, 'google' and basic structure of everything learnt from SS , etc., a more monogamous (MANogamus maybe?) relationship is fine. Without being (or being labelled..) a borefriend, I've decided to give it a go. That qualified, to me, it's a good thing. Let me explain why. It all comes down to personal opinion of course, but having someone who has studied seduction, etc. in a more-than-one-night relationship can be rewarding and useful. The mindset and physiology it takes to use seduction has given me a head and shoulders advantage over most guys in the borefriend box, and hell, if you find a girl who is worth it (yeah we all like to believe none of them are, but in MY experience, it's not always so), it's all good. So anyway, my question basically is re
garding these kinds of matters...what I imagine Major Mark's 'building a better girlfriend' thing is about, i.e. are there any specific tools/skills that need to be altered or built to accommodate the change in situation? And are there any guys on the list in a similar position?

Cliff's Comments: David has some really unique views about how to behave in a relationship. Getting a woman is one thing, keeping her on your terms is quite another.

Maximillian Hell:
>> Me: "Hi I'm Max, I haven't met you yet." HB : "I'm waiting for my friends." Me: ?!
>Mystery: Nothing personal but this tells me you are NOT getting laid. The opener sorta sucks. Or at least the lack of transition into a routine.

Maximillian Hell: Oh actually I quit using this a long time ago, it was really my newbie deshying mission, but I did get largely good reactions from it except for about five times. Nowadays I usually make some comment about the environment as an intro. The original question posed by Game Master was: "what are the shittiest questions HBs come up with?" and I figured I might see this act again, regardless of what I was doing. I am an admitted RAFC. Intro and mid-game, and closes are fine, but for some reason I end up getting alot of phone and email blur--e.g. messages never returned. Bizarrely, this happens even after the HB seems really enthusiastic about me. I'll talk more about that at a later time. I always try to go for instant dates hopefully leading to ZNS/ ONS , but that is rarely practical.
>Mystery: Instead of trying to do things that fit your STYLE, consider doing what WORKS. Yes it's not YOUR style, but then, if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten and you want a change right? More girls? Well, a new STYLE, a new APPROACH is definitely in order.

Maximillian Hell: True, but to play Devil's Advocate, MrSex4unyc always maintained that you should do a style that is congruent with who you are. SS has fit more into my style, because I am a friendly guy who has always done the Dale Carnegie thing--ask people about themselves and be a good listener. I also like Mark B's direct style. But I have my misgivings about SS for reasons similar to the ones you mention. You're right, I can't figure out how to EV/RL without telegraphing interest, though once I kept up a very persistent and aggressive manner as I essentially "grilled" an HB on her interests. The next time I saw her, an independent observer said he really thought she was into me (alas, the BF was watching her like a hawk that night and kept CBing me). What keeps me from doing MM is that so far I haven't really been able to come up with stories that might fit into an MM style for me. Somehow, I don't think your stories and intros would work for me. For instance, don't think most of the HB 's I sarge are
really into the paranormal. Also, men are typically hostile to me in most bar/club circumstances. Some guys on ASF were saying that this happens to them alot too.
> Mark B.: Hey to all of you looking to prolong your sexual performance. I recently got a cold and began taking several 1,000 units of vitamin C to counter the cold (1000 mg in the morning and 1000 mg at night, time release).

Maximillian Hell: Twinlab Multiple Mineral Caps have a great effect on me, though taking just zinc probably works just as well. But if you do either all the time, they sort of quit working, I recommend cycling them off and on. Eating more food in general works great, but with the adverse side effect of weight gain. Once my life gets a bit less chaotic, I am going to test my theory that alot of fresh veg and salads help. I've also read that olive and canola oil lead to firmer, harder erections.