Seductive Reasoning

Last Saturday afternoon I went for dim sum with my friend that I mentioned is the best person I have ever met in handling women. After we went back to his house and I had scheduled to meet this young lady from the phone lines later on.

I called her up to make arrangements and, truthfully, I had a number of reasons to believe that she would be quite attractive but also someone that I was not interested in having a serious relationship with. In fact, I really only wanted to either go to her house, have her come over, and, if I was interested, to have sex with her. Last night the weather was terrible as well, extremely cold with a storm expected. When I called her, she said she wasn't comfortable with me just coming over or her coming to my place the first time we meet and she preferred to go for a drink or a coffee. I reluctantly agreed. My friend listened to what is happening and said that this is all wrong. His philosophy is that he never asks a woman, he tells. You have to drive, never be a passenger. Already, he says, she's telling you what to do. You need to call her up, he says, tell her what you want, and if she doesn't want then sayonara; there are lots of other women willing to be with a nice guy like you. I never give them a break, never let the reins loose, he says. You have to watch for this all the time and you do what you want to do and if she wants to come along for the ride, great. If not, next. This is the crucial, critical part of the philosophy and once you start doing it it becomes easy. You tell them what you want, you design your life and what you are going to do with them and do it. Don't be afraid of what they are thinking or going to think; the more independent you are the more they will be attracted. And if not, so what?

So I call her back from the car, tell her that I have to be honest with her that I am very cold and not in the mood to go out anywhere. Either I come over or she comes to my place or let's forget about it. She says "Ok, come pick me up and we'll go to your place because my place is a mess." I pick her up (she's a babe, as expected) and bring her back to my apartment. She talks freely about sex (this has always been my fail-safe signal that she will have sex with me) but starts holding me back when I try to move the making out to more intimate levels telling me that she doesn't want to rush, etc. I use the Female Interruption Mechanism ("You're right, I shouldn't be caressing your soft breasts and touching your pussy, and really it isn't like you really are enjoying this tremendously and feel the desires building, etc.") and it works like a charm and she spends the night.

Update on Max: Max has spent the past three months with a 23 year old model that he met off the telephone lines. It is hysterical to see them together because he is 5'6 1/2" and she is 6'3". She is a part time model and works in a bar as her main source of income. She had to work New Year's Eve so Max made plans with me and an ex-girlfriend of his to go to a party I was invited to. I asked Max if he would still fool around with this ex and he answered: "She won't let me!" Incidentally, after the party his ex asked me if I had had a good time, to which I replied, "Well, we didn't get laid!" I had dinner with Max last night and he has started to feel bored with his tall girlfriend already. So Max may be back in action soon.

Scorpion: (Commenting on the book, How to Succeed With Women by Louis & Copeland) Yes, I think that much of the book is derived from Ross's materials. What these guys did however, is normalize much of it. For some reason it seems less manipulative while identical in intention. IE. put patterns into conversational frameworks. An example of this is their excuse/describe/question format. I have a question and I wonder if you can clear it up for me. (excuse) First, do you like to cuddle? I thought so. Well, you know that feeling you get when you hold someone close, feel their arms around you, and feel warm all over? (description) I really like that and don't understand why other guys don't. Do you remember a time when you cuddled and it felt really good? (question). One can substitute chocolate (blow job pattern) etc. in the format.

Chris: The only stuff I have played with lately is Liel Lowndes material...(lowndes.com/ to order her tapes go to www.verbaladvantage.com/main.html). I took one of her seminars for kicks. What is interesting about her is that she, much like Ross, shamelessly confesses that the practice of her material is a form of manipulation. It was scary, though, watching her teach some of her tricks to women in that seminar (like they really needed a bigger advantage). The stuff on how to get to a man through his own ego was truly frightening... something she called the "Tombstone technique." It is similar to RJ's value elicitation, except that it is done with a time delay and targeted with cruise missile precision right at the ego. She professes that the vast majority of all initial contact between members of the opposite sex are initiated by women who use body language or other signals that trigger a man's interest subconsciously... and typically the man doesn't register these signals at all consciously... he just suddenly finds himself feeling attracted to her... yet he gives himself all the credit for making the initial contact.

Gary: (Commenting on: "One of the most important things I ever realized with regard to seducing women is that you can say anything to anyone as long as you are polite enough about it.") Add to this- you can do anything as long as it is playful. A few weeks ago, a friend and I were out in a little pub in Marco Island. Not exactly the high season, so the place was limited on the selection of women. Not finding anyone that exactly caught my eye, I decided to just play around and have a good time. My first "I have an intuition about you" bombed, so I decided to become bolder. I noticed at one end of the pub a small island bar about the size of three bathroom stalls, a small pass through where customers were served and an entrance on the side HB, just very average) walked up to the half door, leaned in and grabbed the bartenders (male) butt. I cracked up laughing, slowly shaking my head back and forth, and she turns and smiles at me. A few minutes later she walks up to me, with borefriend in tow, and tells me what she just did works great at getting someones attention. I tell her that I will have to remember that trick. A few beers and an hour later, feeling much bolder the same HB walks by me within arms reach, not even making eye contact or noticing. Borefriend leading this time. Soooo, with a big grin, like the cat that just ate the canary, I reach over and grab a hand full of yummy butt. Right at the base, where the upper thigh meets, with fingers reaching to the inside, exactly like she did earlier to the bartender. She whirls around, sees me grinning from ear to ear and I tell her, rapid fire, "Your absolutely right, it works great at getting your attention." She smiles and just stands in front of me, toe to toe, looking into my eyes. She says, "Yeah, it works awesome." I extend hand, introduce self, and tell her what I learned from *her* is one of the best techniques ever at getting someones attention. Borefriend is now tugging on her arm, so she turns and leaves. As she does so, I give her a friendly little pat on the derriere. She turns and gives me one last big smile.

How did know this would work? Well, I didn't exactly. Just pushing the envelope I guess. Could be risky. I did do the smiling and shaking head a few times before this at different women and it always got their curiosity up. So much so that they would come over and ask what I was thinking or what I was smiling about. One even tried to defend herself against what she thought I was thinking about her. Ha!

Browriter: When you start to become aware of new perspectives and possibilities, you need sometimes to change things in your life that are holding you back. I have very consciously become a very close friend with a woman that is not interested in a sexual relationship. Nor am I with her. So far so good. She has recently gotten into a hot relationship with a guy, probably the first one ever that is good for her. I've taken somewhat of a coach or counselor role to help her get there. My choice, OK. And I've gotten plenty back in return. She's a generous soul and she has a lot to offer. But now things are getting a little messy. I saw both of them recently and used my charm and best skills to win him over. I did. But now they want me to be "their" friend. That's OK but not entirely. On a too-regular basis, she is reporting all the little details of their life... even their sex life... and they want to spend time with me... lots of time... and that doesn't work. I hate the idea of that. Also, a lot of the time and energy I've put into talking and scheming with her, I need to put into pursuing and spending time with HBs. So I need to distance myself from her a little, and I want to do it without hurting her. I don't want to become their one-sided relationship counselor. I need to ease out of that role. I really don't want to spend gobs of time with them. Short stints, fine. I enjoy extended lengths of time with her. I'm willing to let that go too because everything now for her is with him (one reason I sensed early on she would not be a lover for me!).

Questions:

1) How do I shift the relationship to put a little distance and time constraints in so as not to hurt her and still maintain the friendship?

2) How do I make it clear that I don't want to spend extensive lengths of time with the both of them without sounding like a wounded ex-lover or a jerk?

3) How do I ease out of the role of being her therapist-when-she-feels-like- it?

My Comments: What your problem is is that you need to respect your own time more. You are under no obligation to spend any time with your friend (or any friend for that matter) and you can't let yourself feel like you owe them anything because you don't. Haven't you ever noticed that with an old, good friend if you haven't been in touch for awhile that if you get together with them it usually still feels like it always did between you? Personally, I am very busy with work and don't have a lot of time to spend with people and I just let them know that. When I have some time, if I want and they are available, we get together. Stop worrying about what they are thinking--let them worry about what you are thinking. Use this also with women and you will find that it makes a big difference in your attitude and way of dealing with them. If you put the right value on your time, they will pick up on that and value it as well. Remember to be a scarce commodity; anything that is too easy is boring.

You only have a problem in your own mind. If they call and you want to get together with them, then do it. If you would rather go out with another friend, or go sargying or anything else, you need to respect your own wishes and do what you want to do. This problem is symbolic of your not taking a strong enough stance in life in general. When you start to have this type of attitude and approach to your time (which is valuable) then others will see this and treat it with the respect it deserves.

Browriter: Your comments have been of enormous help to me already and I want to let you know I appreciate them a lot. I have a lot more to learn and to look at and you have given me some incredibly useful points to consider and points of reference to see things from.

It's almost comical, or maybe it is comical, I went through this exact process several (or many) years ago with regard to my business, and I don't have these kind of problems with clients, or, oddly, with male friends, that I have with a few women in my life. See, I now know exactly what my time is worth in business and I get that for it, no problem. Now I see I need to relearn, or newly apply, old lessons learned in this part of my personal life. Anyway, thanks again. I'll keep at it and see where it goes. You've given me new inspiration to push forward with SS.

My Comment: One of the main reasons for my creating this Private List is I posted 2 or 3 of my general comments type posts on the SS list and got some negative feedback (one of my posts inadvertently started a really off-topic thread on morality; I was commenting on trying to find the right way to deal --could be read as "exploit", I admit -- with women's low self esteem in certain circumstances).

Browriter: Some guys are funny that way. I'm open to all possibilities, including ones that don't seem very "cricket" at first read. When you look at the amount of moral consternation women go through before they

... bankrupt an ex-husband

... refuse to have sex with their current husband because they're having an affair and it "wouldn't feel right"

... suck money out of guys who they just want to be "good friends" with

... leave guys drooling and begging without so much as a thought...

-- to state the obvious, they don't go through much moral consternation -- then it's probably not particularly incumbent upon us as men to bend over backwards to "play fair" with women. I think it's a personal choice for me and for you and for every man how far you want to go into the grey area between "upright/ win-win" and "downright no-holds-barred exploitative"

... and of course, deal with the consequences, come as they may. I'm actually going through some major (positive) upheavals in re-evaluating a whole array of things even as I'm writing this to you.

My Comment: It is my nature to deal fairly with people. However, I am open to considering how to take advantage of circumstances (actually properly realizing what is reality and dealing with it in the most effective ways possible) that exist. If I can reframe the self-esteem issue, for example: if her view of herself is that she doesn't think she is beautiful and if my saying otherwise would make her think that I am just not on the ball or aware of the truth, then I have no problem confirming her view of herself in a manner that advances my interests. I think this can go overboard (the treatment prostitutes get from pimps comes to mind) and I think responsible, fair-minded people can develop an appropriate strategy for this situation.

Browriter: One thing a friend of mine and I sort of realized in talking is that the Major Mark attitude of "I'm a Master Speed Seducer" as opposed to "I'm trying to be a Master Speed Seducer," not only makes all the difference, but comes from being in a state of low need and high desire (but great detachment from how any one deal works out). That is, you'll play with more enthusiasm, momentum and greater flexibility and drive to win -- sooner or later -- and hang in there longer, be more responsive and more effective, IF you don't have a nagging need deep inside. But indifference or tentativeness won't work either. It's gotta come from an energized playfulness, a willingness, and that comes, ironically and paradoxically, from already having your needs met and wanting more. I know this for sure in business. The better I'm doing in my business at any given time, the easier it is to take on new and lucrative business. Because of this I have cultivated a "fake it till you make it" attitude and posture when the occasional lean portion of a cycle occurs. I think I'm convincing because the down periods are shorter and overall profits keep rising. Doing this in SS may be more challenging, but I am sure the same holds true. So I plan to do it -- act as though I'm getting laid a lot even when I'm not.

Terry: (Responding to my comment to him to "do a lot of non-sexual touching in an appropriate manner.") This particular piece of advice, from you, is perhaps the best Christmas gift I have ever got.

When sober, I always had trouble segueing between no-touch and touch. Within 15 minutes of meeting her, I was complimenting her nails and had her hand in mine. This helped create an incredible state of rapport. Thanks a lot!!

My Comment: It's funny how somethings that are really obvious when you think about them are overlooked. Cleanliness, fresh breath, really appealing cologne, being dressed well (here it is clear that clean, simple clothes are sufficient; you can wear anything that is not terribly out of style, torn, mismatched, etc. but women will notice if you are somewhat in style), well groomed (eg. clean shaven or if not it needs to suit you, hair in place as opposed to messy, clean glasses if you wear them, etc.), good manners, looking deeply and directly into their eyes when you talk (paying attention and not looking at other women when you are with one), listening closely to what is being said, speaking softly with good tonality, smiling, lots of non-sexual touching, etc. are basics that are all important elements of the process. Think of it the other way around; couldn't you be turned off by someone who smelled bad, dressed poorly, looked dirty, etc.? If not, there are plenty of those kind of women around also, I guess.

J': (Commenting on: "Two nights ago I was at a Christmas party and my well known and highly effective "Excuse me, but you look exactly like...") When you say this technique is highly "effective" what have you found to be your ratio of closes when you've used it? And/or does anyone else use it and end up closing? The reason I ask is I think there is a factor rarely discussed about the first impression an HB gets as a result of whatever "technique" one uses to start a conversation. ie. "that's kind of a cute funny but plain-Jane thing... hehe" or "wow there's something sexy about this guy". Notice how the two of these could be a major factor towards the end result.

My Comments: For me this technique works fabulously. I certainly don't close as often as I would like (I'm working on that) but it does what it is supposed to do and that is it holds their attention, gets them listening to me closely while smiling with me, and opens the door to further conversation. No one I know here in town that I have told this to has admitted to using this line, but I have heard over e-mail of a few who have found it to be very effective as well. A friend of mine who watches me do it all the time feels that it just isn't his style but he gets a kick out of watching me do it. But I understand that the point of your comment is does this line distinguish you as a desirable male or just someone who seems to know them. This is really a question of delivery; when I do it, I either do it as a line where they laugh after ("you look exactly like...someone I'd like to meet!") or as an opener where I don't think humour is the right way to go immediately ("you look exactly like...you
know, as I get close to you I realize you aren't who I thought you were but I would like to meet you in any event"). Both make it clear that this is a male-female thing and not a harmless inquiry.

Bill: (Commenting on my comments about being interested in learning more about "how to be the jerk women love") I do believe a lot of this has to do with power. If you do not let her have any power over you then you have the power, by way of not caring. If she walks ok. If she gives you what you want, then you've got her. It's no different than making an outrageous request. Even though you know it to be outrageous, just make it. If the other person gives you what you want, well you've got something that you otherwise wouldn't have had, if you had never made the request. So Make The Request.

Power is something to cultivate. Women are drawn to it, so work to develop it. How you walk, talk, interact, or in short just be Powerful. Keep in mind that to truly be gentle one must have power. Otherwise one is just weak.

My Comments: The theme of power is one that also fascinates me. How do you obtain power when you don't have it? How do you increase your power when you have a good amount of it? I think that everyone is drawn to powerful people and this is a very seductive quality.

Generaly: I know that this is a little heavy, but I have been looking into women's eyes and saying "I love you" to myself, with all of my heart and all of the "love" that I can muster. It seems like when I do that, I can do no wrong! Everything turns out right, even the conflicts!!! I guess you call that "Being a loving asshole." Really doing things with love seems to be the secret for appearing sincere (for me). I don't know if anyone else is crazy enough to try this too, but I sure would like some other's experiences.

(Commenting on "Max") I think you hit it on the head when you said, "or perhaps they are able to detect an underlying neediness or something." There are many ways of looking at this, but let me give it a try anyway. As Ross as said many times, "Women will want us more if they have to work to get us." This is very easy for women because they only have to play "hard to get." On the other hand, us men are usually playing the pursuer and it is really difficult to play the same exact game. We have another game to play that I have just found put into words (this is David Dieda again). We embody the masculine energy when we have a "purpose" and we let women know that our purpose is our number one priority, not her. We don't have to ignore her, treat her badly, break her heart or any of the other Jerk tactics. Just let her know that she (or any other woman) is never going to be more than Number Two in our lives. I wouldn't put it like that to a woman, but you could say something like, "I have a purpose in life, something I will achieve and be able to die with a smile on my face because of it." Women are attracted to men who have a purpose. Neediness can actually be attractive in a woman, but only to about 80% of the men who have masculine cores, and in men to the 10% of the women who have masculine cores. So, "attractive neediness" can work well on most men, and some "manly" women. I'll leave it there. . . Now, look at what us seduction students usually do:

1. Make seduction a high priority.

2. Think about how to get a woman in bed.

3. Spend a lot of time reading, e-mailing, surfing, etc... with the point of seduction.

Next, imagine what priority that puts "relationships" (with a woman) at? I think that the more energy we put into anything, the more it means to us. Imagine getting really juiced up for a hookup and thinking about what you are going to say, etc... After all of that, you will most likely look into her eyes and think something like, "I really want to get you into bed, what do I have to do to sleep with you, which patterns, what body language . . ." Well, you might not have said something like this, but I sure have, and it really sucked!

Now, imagine looking into her eyes and think, "I have a purpose in my life! You are not my purpose. But, you are attractive. I CAN suck your breasts. I CAN kiss your clit. I CAN fuck you so good that you just totally let go and have the most intense sexual, spiritual experience possible. I have a purpose in my life! You are not my purpose." Having a purpose has many positive benefits. I have found myself able to have women "lock onto" me. As if my eyes are magnets. Very interesting! I don't ignore Sargy comes at a time when it flows naturally. Its almost as if her eyes are asking me for the Sargy, and she gobbles it up like it is food. Sometimes I hold it back and let her get a little more hungry. OK Freedom is very important to this whole thing. If she says NO, I try to look her hard in the eyes (and think "I am going to fuck you"), say OK (or nothing) and go to the bathroom, get some water, etc... as if nothing happened. Then feel the energy flow between us. Let it build up. What then? It depends. At best, you know :-) At the worst, I went through this cycle at least five times before the woman gave herself to me, of her own free will. Well, maybe that wasn't the worse. There were a couple of times I wimped out completely (don't make me relive the horror!). OK, I admit it, after all of this "manly" talk, that I wimp out often. But I am working on it. This is my problem, but I think a common one. My research has led me to study "social isolation." This is related to shyness, but it very different because even extroverted people can be socially isolated. I will summarize my studies as soon as they are somewhat complete.

Terry: None of my friends know of this technology (I have decided to fly solo on this stuff).

My Comments: I understand why but you should consider letting some of your friends or acquaintances know about it (those who are Nice Guys who need help, someone you feel would benefit and where it would be almost a charitable act to let them know about it). Certainly there are a lot of guys I don't tell about it because I don't care for them to compete with me or for the SS patterns to be floating around more than they have to... But I have turned on others who really needed this in their lives.

Terry: Similar to an SS post, I have been getting my "google" up by saying hi to every attractive women. None of them have stopped to talk to me, but its a total start. How hard is it to say hi?

My Comment: Depending on where you are this will be more or less effective. In Texas, it seems to be the culture to say "Hi" to everyone you run into. Here, people are much colder to strangers. I find that unless I am direct in my intentions I get nowhere, but I have friends who do well starting up innocuously. So there is no right or wrong, only what works for you.

Terry: Where are your favorite places to make contact? Some of my friends opened up a semi-hip coffee shop. Thinking this should be a good place. I've taken women there but haven't met any.

My Comments: I try to keep my eyes open everywhere. Once you start approaching a lot, after awhile the locale drops in importance. Last night I was in a bar and I approached an HB who was standing with about 4 girlfriends and 4 other guy friends (I waited for the right moment, when there was a lull in their conversation and the guys weren't on top of her; they were all standing around -- probably still not up to going up to one if they were all sitting at a table although I have done that at least once that I can think of off the top of my head). So where you do it and who is around her, I find, diminish in importance as you keep doing it.

Terry: (Commenting on my start up routine where I go up to a woman and say "Excuse me, but my friend and I were having a discussion and were wondering what you thought. Do you know what polar bears weigh? "No" Well, it's just enough to break the ice. I use this one to pick up women for friends. I just start a conversation with it, they smile, I introduce my friend and let him take over. I didn't compliment her, I didn't say anything which puts the onus on her to have more of a conversation with me, etc. I find this works well to let me step out of the picture after.) When you are good enough at this to pick up women for friends, you are good.

My Comment: You know, guys are impressed that I go up and talk to women. But the reality is that all I am doing is speaking to another person. It really is no big deal. The big deal, in my mind, is being able to convert this to a closing, to real action.

Terry: (Commenting on a recent date) So, we talked for four hours straight.

My Comment: A few of the books I am reading lately suggest setting up first a "priming date" (which should last 30-75 minutes) followed by a "seduction date" (which lasts longer). The first is cut short by you to keep her wanting more. The second is where you pull out the heavy artillery.

Terry: My general rule is, two uncomfortable silences and the "meeting" is over.

My Comment: I am learning that you just let her be one who is uncomfortable. If you have nothing to say, just don't say anything. I was out two nights ago and approached this really hot, tall HB and she was cool to me at first. So I sat next to her and didn't push things. She started to warm up when she realized I wasn't going to be annoying, pushy, etc.

Terry: Also, when I am struggling for material and it is no longer enjoyable, date is done.

My Comment: If you are a good listener, people will think you are a great conversationalist.

Terry: I am or was a good student of Dale Carnegie. "Talk to a man about himself and he will talk for hours" --Disraeli

My Comment: Personally I frequently don't have that much I want to say to them.

Terry: As far as not having that much to say to them, I think this goes back to an SS post where someone talked about installing the states in yourself. The essence of the post is that you have to regard each women you meet as the most wonderful woman you have ever met. This gives you that congruency that allows you to install states in her. After all, if you don't believe them then how will she? It has been my experience in the past as well that women love to talk. Get them talking about their friends and their relationships. I always ask "who is your best friend? What do you like about them?" Vice versa: "What would your best friend say about you? How do you arrange your friends i.e. who gets more of your time" (what is your friend hierarchy). I find this to be useful especially when you meet the friends. You know lots about them and you can earn brownie points by having a serious conversation with them.