The bigger risk you take, the more attractive you look

Double Your Dating Seminar a Smash Success

On a last minute whim, I jumped on a plane to Los Angeles last Wednesday and spent the weekend with David DeAngelo (aka Sisonpyh on this list) and his all star guests. I got off the plane and went to visit Ross at his lavish Marina Del Rey apartment/cat sanctuary. Ross is always fun to hang out with and we visited Starbucks and The Tea Leaf and Coffee Bean which are among his frequently visited sarging spots. The highlight of the afternoon, though, had to be back at his apartment watching him Instant Message with this "older woman" (who he called Granny because at 42 she is a grandmother) where he was absolutely hysterically funny in the way he was busting her balls - it seemed to me that he was going a bit too far, but this woman could really take it and had a highly developed sense of humour. She ended up giving him her phone number as well as emailing her photo. Ross, nice guy that he is, sent her a picture of his big cock and told her he was sending her a such a picture (it's a jpg of a rooster). Later on, Riker showed up and we went out for dinner which was great.

I got to the hotel later in the evening and David DeAngelo was in the coffee shop with a number of the guys attending and helping with the seminar. David's very tall, beautiful girlfriend was also there - a true testimonial to the success you can have with his ideas and strategies. While David's presentation was extremely well developed and presented (the text of what he presented was projected onto a huge screen and the seminar workbook included a copy of all the screens, which made taking notes a lot easier as most of it was already in writing for you), the highlights of the weekend, for me, were listening and meeting some of the "masters" that came by. Included in these were Steve Piccus and his apprentice Eric who did a great optional (but attended by pretty much everyone) presentation after the seminar day ended on Friday that had everyone talking about them for the rest of the weekend. Rick H. was there and, from talking to him, he's really taken his skills to an even higher level than before (for those of you not familiar with Rick, he posted here a long time ago about his incredible success in getting 5 women in bed with him simultaneously, and he's written some spectacular stuff on creating threesomes that appeared here as well). His latest thing seems to be inviting all your dates to show up at the same time at the same place - he said that what would happen would be that they would either get along and you can have them at the same time, or the worst that can happen is that they start competing for you (you can see his perception excluded that they could get mad and just leave - that didn't seem to be a part of his thinking, this is the kind of attitude that explains why he is so successful with women). His best friend Brent also made his first appearance (to my knowledge) at a seminar and he also clearly a guy with tremendous game. His thing that he used to do was to invite the women to come to his place, serve them (cheap) champagne and hors d'oeuvres, play opera (not popular music like probably every other guy who's place she's been at) on the stereo and give her the James Bond experience in real life. He would close the deals by saying he had just gotten this movie and propose that they watch it together. But of course the vcr in the living room is not working so they will have to watch it in the bedroom, lying on his bed. Of course, he had seen the movie many times and would interject a few well placed comments like "I'll bet he does this" which will convey to her that he's a clever guy. He said he rarely got through more than a quarter of the movie before the real action started. This is actually part of what I took away from the seminar the most - and that is that the guys who are truly successful with women create their own realities and are uncompromising in that reality. The woman enters their world and they either live in it under his terms or they can leave. I have noticed this in the past but it became very clear this weekend as probably the greatest common denominator between the master seducers that I have met.

The seminar was in a lot of ways a real homecoming, with many of the guys I originally met several years ago at a variety of Speed Seduction Seminars attending, including , Kamal, Jason O., Riker, and Greg Taylor (now of Seduction Pro). Also in attendance was Chris Powles, Mystery's wingman who will be here in Montreal for Mystery's workshops next month, Jay (Formhandle of fas.speed-seduction.com) and his bud Ray (Tokyo PUA ), and others. The seminar was a real eye opener for a lot of the attendees, many of whom came from very far away (including Vienna, Canada, Australia, and the U.K.). Some of these guys had never seen or heard of anything other than the Double Your Dating material and were clearly blown away by guys like Rick and Steve. And I can't finish this quick report off without thanking David for mentioning these emails and allowing his attendees to meet me and get on the subscription list.

It was a whirlwind trip for me, getting in late Thursday and flying out early Monday morning but I enjoyed every minute of it. I am certain you will be seeing more seminars by David DeAngelo and you will be well advised to check them out.

Ross: > GameMaster: Yeah, I'm using everything in the arsenal to get what I want from Jenny, which is her! Now that I think about it, Ross did miss my point so I'll retrace my steps. My little drill with her was rocking right along until she made the unsolicited reference to me giving her the "approval" that she had lacked as a child. That hardly sounds like I'm torturing the poor girl now does it?

Ross: I'm not being clear: from what you described, this woman is very disturbed with severe abandonment issues. Look a bit more broadly at the overall range of responses and behaviors she displays and step off, for a moment, on this approval thing, which I believe you rightly called. She's a serious nut. Look up "borderline personality disorder". I'm not much one for diagnostic labels, but she seems like a serious nut. Yes, nuts are very rigid in their responses, and once you figure them out, you can enjoy dancing them around like puppets on a string. The danger here, hidden away, is to you, Gamesy. What you are feeding beneath the ego is something that may rear up to bite you in the ass in other areas of your life. > GameMaster: And I validated that just like I'm supposed to and didn't linger on the subject. My point was, that armed with that sincere validation that I had bestowed on her, and unknowing this was something lacking from her childhood memories, she bolted. It was the very next day that she hit me with the news that "I can't see you again." I wasn't using that as a shameless opportunity to plug Anne's book, maybe Ross disagrees with her premise, but I honestly think she's onto something about a major element of attraction being tied to the "negative combined traits of the parents."

Ross: unhealthy attraction, by nature, will be tied to pathology. Is unhealthy attraction the only option? I think (and pray) not. > GameMaster: My action plan with everybody is designed around a deep understanding of this theory which boils down to this "Give them everything they need, and half of what they want." That's basically it. And I did get her back in the stable but not by being warm and sensitive, but by being cold and totally insensitive, so who's right and who's wrong?

Ross: The woman is emotionally ill...that is my point. And by engaging in this stuff with her, you enjoy a victory that is fueled by your beliefs that all women are like this (or almost all). > GameMaster: And Ross, I think you know that I have the utmost respect for you and the things you teach. I took it all in, and when I needed it the most, and then adapted it to my personality and style. I think that's what we're supposed to do. But in any discussion about "doorways" there needs to be mention of the door to their dark nature..

Ross: There is dark, and then there is deeply disturbed. That is what this woman is, and pounding her through exploiting that doesn't ultimately speak well to what you want to have deep inside you, now does it? > GameMaster: Regarding the issue of being non caring let's look at not caring about the outcome first. I do not believe that you can ever really become non caring about the outcome.

Ross: In magick, we teach a state called "non-attachment/non-disinterest". You aren't attached to the outcome, but you aren't uninterested either. That is a good balance, from which much can be achieved.

Caring is a part of our humanity and not caring is not. > A guru master: Ok Rasp, think about this. It is a well-known fact that the moon causes the oceans to rise and fall. And guess what? you are nothing more than water with a few chemicals spinning in the right direction. So how can the planets, how can the universe not affect you??

Ross: Man, this is off topic, but with all due respect, guru, the moon only has such a great effect because, relative to the planets, it is very close to the Earth...at about 1/4 of a million miles, it sits right in Earth's gravitational-well...it is like a bum pissing through your window, getting your floor wet, and someone trying to do it with a huge dick, from 5 states over. The planets are all so far away, that even with their combined mass, their gravitational pull is practically neglible. Turn the equation around and you will see the truth in it: the Earth exerts massive gravitational effect on the Moon, but relatively little on the surrounding planets in the Solar System. Why? Because of the distances involved. > A guru master: It's true that Astrology is mostly run by business criminals trying to make a quick buck off of lonely, gullible people but saying that you are not affected in some way by the planets is like saying you are not affected by tight jeans creeping up a 17 year-old's perfect little ass crack.

Ross: As you can see, scientifically, this is just not correct. Potentially, there might be some other effect that we haven't yet identified, but your example of gravitational pull that produces tides is totally incorrect in every way. Sorry, this is just the truth. > A guru master: So anyway, I went out to the local pool hall for a drink and saw this new bartender there, HB 8.5, 33-years-old (I'm 26). I introduced myself and then I grabbed her arm gently and whispered in her ear, "I bet you could teach me a thing or two : )

Ross: Note something: you are not only being cocky and direct, but you are matching her own view of herself and the true view of the situation, at least from her perspective, so you gain instant credibility. You could have been just as direct and said, "I bet I could teach you something" but it wouldn't have matched the situation as she saw it. Direct, strong, plus demonstrating authority on how she views herself and the situation is right on the money! > A guru master: She laughed and said, "You're right -- I could." I said, "That's good news because I'm tired of these virgins....they look great but they don't know shit."

Ross: Again, matches her view of them. > A guru master: She laughed and made a comment on my 'directness' to which I said, "Not everyone can handle honesty. Can you?" She accepted my challenge and said that she could handle honesty. So I said, "That's good because I just bought a new condo and I'd honestly like to christen it tonight with you...you'd look really good in front of my fireplace holding a glass of wine."

Ross: Giving her an image to live up to and a challenge are parts of the "Seduction Wheel" that I teach. Nice moves. > A guru master: She said, "I get off at 3am." I said, "Well there's no way I'm sticking around this place until 3 am, so here's my address. Be at my place as soon as you're done. And make sure you show up, because a good heart like mine breaks easily : )"

Ross: Good move. You left it up to her to prove to you that she was up to the challenge, rather than being like the average chump. You challenged her the entire time. good moves! > A guru master: She showed up and I fucked her, but she didn't teach me shit : )

Ross: no doubt. The reality is, she had nothing to teach you, but her perception (which is what counts) is that she did, and you accurately used that. Thus, you displayed your authority on how she thinks/who she is. Nice move. Had you been ballsy but inaccurate according to her view, you would not have faired so well. Great stuff!

Mark B.: Here is an example of me using SS and it working it's magic. Some background info first. This e-mail is to a woman I ran into on Tuesday May 21 at a grocery store. She is about 27, tall and fit like a star and has full lips and reasonably sized rack. Back in June of 1999, I went to a charity car wash and ran into her and then again about a year later and then again last year and yesterday. Back at the carwash I did not recognize her but she recognized me as having gone to the University of Toronto with me. When I saw her most recently she actually called me out while walking in the store as I did not recognize her. We exchanged cards and I told her that we should have a coffee together and that I will send her an e-mail. Below is my initial e-mail and her response to it. "Good morning N. You know since I graduated from U of T back in 1996 you are the only person from there that I see from there on such a regular basis over the years. Not even friends that I have from U of T do I see or talk to as often as I bump into, see and talk to you. Whether it's in a car wash or in a store or on the street somehow our paths cross. Statistically speaking, the odds of me running into one person such as you with such frequency over years are too low to ignore. Even people that I know that live work or live close to me I do not see as often. I am a big believer that certain people sometimes cross our paths for a reason, a lesson to teach us something, an experience that we need to have however long or short it may be, sometimes a sentence long or years in duration. I suppose that perhaps you and I have some sort of message to tell each other or perhaps something to learn from one another and for this reason we have come across each other's paths so often over the years. The universe works in mysterious ways and perhaps our chance meetings are an indication that the universe is telling us that perhaps there is a reason as to why we have met so often. I feel that it would be interesting to see what would happen if we actually had sometime to sit down and talk for a bit to see if there is anything we can learn from each other.. In that context, if it would be fine with you, we can have a coffee and talk. At worst you bum a free coffee from me and be on your way, at best we enhance our lives in some way. Sometime next week would be best for me, after work in the evening on a Wednesday or Thursday or Friday evening. If that is fine with you let me know what is your availability and we can meet somewhere convenient to both of us. Have a great day............

From: N H To: Mark Subject: Re: Hello "wow, mark. that's a pretty intense email you sent. sorry for the delay in response. i've been in meetings all day and am actually due back in a few minutes. you're right. times and places are sometimes a lot less 'happen-stance' than they appear. what you termed the 'cosmic force' , i call God. i think he has a lot to do with what happens in our lives. anyway, about getting together... i usually get together with friends in the week. you're more than welcome to hang with us if you'd like. quite a few of them went to u of t, actually. one guy, derick, was a varsity blue. you might know him. ...so i'll let you know what things look like for next week, and if you're free, we can all hook up." I learned and realized that I do 100% better when I give women a reason to meet with me and then while they are with me I can grow on them by discussing this cosmic stuff they love so much. No talk of relationship, sex or anything of that nature until they "feel the warmth of my voice wrapping itself around them and the incredible connection between us". Ross I think you are a genius.

Cliff's Comment: While I think she left the door open for more, she's setting you up to meet with her and her gang. She stuck you in the group of "friends" and I think it's how you react that will determine whether you stay there or not. You might consider showing up with a hot looking babe on your arm.

Mark B.: So much is written about verbal communication and getting women to think about all sorts of seductive issues. Over the years I have come to realize that non verbal communication or how you say what you say and what you actually do with your hands and body to get your point across can sometimes or many times make more of an impact than what you say. Thinking back about the women I boned for the first time, I realized that I did not just ask them to bone but just took them so to speak with out asking them for permission and they just went along. I guess this could be something called bss - body speed seduction. If anyone out there in the universe has any thoughts on body language and your experiences with this I would appreciate your comments.

Cliff's Comment: In the Double Your Dating Seminar, David DeAngelo spoke quite a bit about how 7% of our communication is verbal and 93% is non-verbal.

Mark B.: (Commenting on a guru on a different topic:) Here's an interesting 'field-report' from last night. I just moved into my new condo 2 weeks ago but haven't 'christened' it yet (until last night).....She laughed and said, "You're right -- I could." ....She showed up and I fucked her, but she didn't teach me shit : )

mb: I love to hear things like this as it goes to show how great it can be when one is direct with your intent. There is no use in hiding your intent as I feel that when done with the right body language you can say anything and not necessarily always get a yes but at least get good natured laugh and phone number. Sometimes the more extreme you can be the better off you are as you come across as gutsy and courageous. My problem is that I sometimes tend to be so open and so direct that women do not believe that I am genuine in what I say as they claim no one they ever met is so open and therefore I could not be serious in what I say. Sometimes it's a battle to get them to see that I am serious in what I say but that really is not my problem.

Lovedrop: > Mark B: Women want and need to be shown that we have taken a risk to meet them and gone out of our way to meet them. This is the biological basis where they feel you are courageous enough to fight through hell for her.

Lovedrop: This is an important point, and it meshes with Nightlight9's habit of approaching women and asking them out in front of all their co-workers. (He noticed that his results got better when he risked embarrassment.) Basically, the bigger risk you take, the more attractive you look. This is why wimpy approaches don't work...such as leaving a note on her car, asking her friend if she likes you, etc. These are all maneuvers designed to reduce risk and thus they inadvertently reduce attractiveness at the same time!! > db: Anyway, I called her the next day and her roommate said she wasn't home. I called her again, and the phone was disconnected (temporarily), and continues to be so. I have little hope for it, but I sent her a nasty email similar to something rj posted on the SS list and the fastseduction list. If her phone is disconnected, I doubt if she will ever read it, if it all, but it's all I got.

Lovedrop: Um, I think it is much more likely that her phone was disconnected temporarily because they were late paying the bill. I think the nasty email was a mistake.

Gregory Rasputin: Here's a comment about Ross' and gm 's conversation: when I have a power trip like that (which is a state I absolutely adore), I don't just suck it dry...as soon as I feel that rejuvenation that gm must be feeling, I use it to go out and approach as many girls as I can, because I feel good about myself. Everyone should be careful about what makes them feel good. You should never feel good because you're better then someone, or because you're abusing someone, you should take a few minutes out of every day to feel good, just because you're neurologically capable of it, and no other reason. I want to be just a good person, and I know that I may lack a conscience or feelings of remorse but I still know that my brain knows how to feel good, it knows how to, it learned how to at an early age, and it can do it on its own, without the situation changing, without drugs. If it wanted to, it can just stop...tune everything out, and feel rejuvenated, happy, and powerful, and just bring a smile to your face. To me, NLP is about learning to control your own brain, not the brains of others.

To the guru: Haha, funny argument about that whole moon thing controlling the tides. But the moon hardly controls the tides too, I mean, its gravity doesn't lift the water away from the earth. Besides, there's many studies out there that prove that genetics don't determine the parts of our personality that control promiscuity, or our hobbies, and our neatness. If the planets did control us (which technically, their gravity may cause little shifts in our embryo's chemicals), all that it will change is our genes...so our eye colors, shoe size, facial features, but not our habits. Genes hardly have anything to do with our habits, and you cannot say that the chemicals in our heads will make us want to cheat. Right now, I could not possibly imagine myself cheating on anyone, but if I got cheated on 3 times, I'd hate all women and cheat all my life...but that's just how my brain learns, it's got nothing to do with my chemicals. We're raised on experience, and our brains are learning machines, not just piles of chemicals that react automatically to their surroundings.

And on a side note, guru master, I took your advice about finding a good g/f and keeping her. I still have my g/f, and you were so right, investing time in one good girl, is better then going around trying to get laid every week. I can hardly believe that u only got laid once this month, what happened?

Maximillian Hell: I don't read Italian, but I bet there is some great stuff here! "Seduzionerapida," does that mean "speed seduction?" groups.yahoo.com/group/seduzionerapida/messages/4786/

Ana: I'm new to this list. I'm also a woman. I have enjoyed reading a great deal of what you guys have to say. I have also had a good laugh at times at honest comments about us females, and other comments that just are fallacies; at least where I am concerned. In my humble opinion, which is not so humble at times, I must be honest and say that a man gazing into my eyes for that fraction longer than humans generally do, without smiling, is more likely to be saying " I am interested in getting to know you with a view to a relationship". A guy that smiles and gazes is saying to me " I want to get you into my bed asap and I believe I am 100% capable of doing so". A real turn-off for me ;-) From what I can gather by reading some of what is written by you all, you are attempting to use some form of either hypnosis, or NLP . Please correct me if I am wrong, or someone please explain it to me. As this is my first reply I will leave it here on a high note....I am marrying one of the best NLP experts in the usa, and I know all the tricks. Much to my fiance's chagrin, they don't always work on me..lol's, but the idea that you can seduce by hypnosis is true, but a truly passionate woman is genetically made. Not produced by any man.

Barry J.: How do I go about posting to this list?

Cliff's Comment: To post to this list, you just hit "reply" or write me at my email address(es) that are at the top of this page. For some reason people seem to not understand how to post here and I hope this helps some of you.

Barry J.: I am in a really tight spot with this one chick over the net. This chick was hit so powerfully with the SS I did with her, that she has been balling and crying her eyes out over the e-mails I have sent her. In her last e-mail, she told me I had done it again, and she cannot stop crying. She went on to say that what I am doing to her is so intense that if we met, she might be crying everyday. I saw this as a test, and sent her an e-mail with the famous Bishop line, "I guess the adventure ends here, etc..." I believe this chick is "hooked' as she has never ever met a guy like me before and I expect to hear from her soon. I have never had a chick crying, and crying like there was no tomorrow. Is it a good sign to have a chick crying, and crying like this? The following is what this girl wrote to me. I was hoping to meet her, after meeting on a dating site on the net.

Hello Barry J.: >Thank you for your many many emails. The reason i didn't reply sooner is because when i read your 2nd email i started to cry and i couldn't stop. You were so right on the mark. I meet men all the time around here and you're right. There's only one thing they're interested in. They don't even bother trying to figure out what's stirring inside. Then along you came. Never even met you. You saw only a picture of me and you were able to gather all that information just by your intuition. God, I'm crying as i write this. what's wrong with me??

(Barry J.: The second one gets worse...) > There you've gone an dunnit again. What would it be like if i actually met you? Would i just be crying all the time? I don't know about this. I'm sorry. I just can't deal right now. These emotions are too powerful and I just can't handle something this intense at the moment. I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm sorry

Barry J. continues: After this e-mail, I sent her stuff along the lines of... I guess the adventure, magical journey, etc. ends here. I then went on to tell her goodbye. After the first "real" e-mail she sent me, I sent her some more powerful stuff... which, as you can see has resulted in the last e-mail I received. This girl was hit hard, and my always improving "intuition" really hit pay dirt... as you can see by her responses. My intuition told me that although she was smiling in the picture, that I could see the sadness behind her eyes, etc... and I went on to tell her about a more fulfilling future, a great happiness inside, and on, and on... In my opinion it was the best stuff I have ever thought up on the fly, using embedded commands, etc. The big question is... Is this a case that Ross Jeffries talks about, where sometimes it affects them so much, that they run the other way? Seems that way to me. They don't feel worthy of a man this good. Too good to be true? Is it normal for some women to cry and cry instead of feeling the joy? I could understand a few tears, but I have never had such a strong reaction as this.

I'd also like to hear some thoughts from, the guys about chicks posting on this list, as I am trying to figure out if this is a good thing, or a bad thing. I am kind of divided on this issue, at this point. I know that there may be some positives to it, as a woman may be able to tell us a few things from a female perspective, but I always saw this list as a support group for us guys. Females have all kinds of support groups. We don't have too many good ones to choose from, and I bet I am not the only one who sees this group as a sacred meeting place. That last post proved that that woman could go for a guy that she would have never otherwise have gone with. That being the bald headed guy she was talking about, and how cute she now thinks bald guys are. I personally am a little uncomfortable about women posting. Now the naysayers may bombard this list in her defense, but I challenge you all to think about this. I don't think there are many places just for guys.

Cliff's Comment: That was not actually a post, but a reprint of an article ("Crossing the Great Bald Divide") that I thought was interesting. But I think that women should post - new perspectives are always welcome.

Barry would like to find wingmen in the Sydney, Nova Scotia area. If interested, contact me and I will forward your email address to him. If you are looking for wingmen in your area, I will do the same for you but you can also go to www.fas.speed-seduction.com and use the pair system there which will hook you up with people in your area (and it is also useful for places you are going to visit, worldwide).

Phillip: >A guru master: Ok Rasp, think about this. It is a well-known fact that the moon causes the oceans to rise and fall. And guess what? you are nothing more than water with a few chemicals spinning in the right direction. So how can the planets, how can the universe not affect you??

Phillip: Like many things Astrology-related, this sounds like a reasonable scientific explanation to explain at least on aspect of astrology. Except that it reveals itself as plain silly as soon as you pull out your pocket calculator and apply a simple little formula that Newton worked out several hundred years ago: The effect of gravity on one object (eg: you) is proportional to the mass of the other object (eg: the moon) *and* the distance it is from you (which, in the case of the moon, is rather a long way away). In the case of the stars this distance is billions of times further. I once read (Carl Sagan, in Cosmos, if I recall correctly) that the gravitational effect of the Doctor helping to deliver a child at birth has a much, much stronger gravitational pull on the baby than the moon and even more so than that of any of the stars (irrespective of their position in the sky at this moment). While the Doc has a much lower mass, she/he is much, much closer. Any 17 year old final-year school physics student is taught this formula, and they should be able to look up the relative masses and distances in a book and be able to demonstrate this scientific fact for themselves. So while any explanation astrology based on gravity is clearly bunkem, it is absolutely true that astrology has a profound effect on the minds of women! I strongly recommend to guys that they familiarize themselves with a bit of astrology and adopt an open minded approach when discussing the subject with women. Astrology is a perfect "delivery vehicle" for feeding in SS ideas and frames (personally, I prefer handwriting recognition via the Grapho Deck for this purpose). I slept with a recent beach beauty contest winner (queen) a few weeks ago for which I can thank "astrology" - we were in my car on our first date* and she asked my star sign (I'm a Virgo) and she responded "cool, Virgos are perfect matches for Taurus'", to which I strongly agreed and anchored her state for utilizing later by tapping her thigh (this is an easy spot to use in a car, it feels quite natural; I had already been stacking positive states on this spot earlier on during our drive). *date = I use this word in the SS sense, not the traditional sense. I met this girl at a party which I was at with someone else, soon had her feeling a "spiritual connection" with me, we swapped numbers, and this daytime car trip out and about was the first time I'd seen her since then. I recommend daytime get togethers of several hours which include a car journey. As you are journeying, be sure to make some "random" stops to check out something interesting you just happen to be driving past (this demonstrates spontaneity and flexibility, and such stops are ideal opportunities for fun things to happen - in my experience shared activity adventures tend to create powerful rapid bonding). By finishing your meeting in the daytime, it leaves her wanting more (and offers you an opportunity to set a challenge for her to see you again that night and closing sexually).