The second she earns it, turn and face her
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This is Cliff's Private List, a free e-mail relating to seduction. Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from people commenting are separated by IIIIIIII with each commentator's name preceding each comment. Comments from previous emails are preceded by an ">", usually in front of that commentator's name).
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Cliff's List Website NEWS:
The old website will soon be changed to just refer you to the new website, but for the time being there are still some items on there you may want to check out.
www.geocities.com/cliff604/CliffsList.html
Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of what this list is all about. Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are on the website also, as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.
CLIFF'S LIST TECHNICALITIES:
- Did you get all the recent emails? I had been (it seems to be working great now) having a problem with my email system (which should be worked out now) and many of you probably missed some of these recent ones. Email me if you want a copy:
1) JUST as I am about to run the standard bartender tactic that I always use...
2) I can't talk to you anymore...you're trouble
3) Want your wife's passwords?
4) I'm using all my power not to fall on the bed
5) She doesn't turn her phone on all the time
SPECIAL NOTES:
- All posts you see here have been submitted by the author, or permission granted by the author to be reposted here.
- Please read the promo section below as there are usually new things mentioned there each new email I send out. There are also many non-commercial announcements in there (eg. Lair news).
- This email originates in Montreal, Quebec, Canada - see below in the Lair section to read about activities in this and other cities.
Thoughts on Spam:
Craig made the following suggestion to the problem of a lot of non deliveries of emails: "I solved the problem with my spam filter by white listing your email address. You may wish to recommend guys do that when they sign up since we talk about s*ex and that triggers all spam filters."
I noticed another similar newsletter spelling words like f*ck, bull*sh*it, etc., not because they are prudish or anything like that, but because they are trying to sneak the ezine past all the sp*am filters. I am going to try this out and your comments would be appreciated.
Real Social Dynamics Returns to MONTREAL! New Dates - will be held during the Montreal Jazz Festival which runs July 2-17, 2004.
See below for their full workshop and seminar schedule. TD and Papa leave for Australia this week! If you are there, don't miss this rare opportunity to take their workshop and/or seminar in Sydney.
Montreal Seminar - $300 - July 10-11, 2004
Montreal Workshop - $600 - July 2-4, 2004
Cliff's List is now an RSD
affiliate and if you sign up for their workshops and seminars by clicking www.realsocialdynamics.com/
you are also supporting this list.
SECOND SYDNEY (AUSTRALIA) WORKSHOP and SEMINAR OPEN (March 12-14 and March 19-21). Due to overwhelming demand, the guys have added another date. Catch them while they are there!
From TylerD (www.realsocialdynamics.com/ ):
"Hey guys, I need an opinion. My friend met this girl in Seattle, and they really hit it off. They wound up hooking up on the first night, and he even hung out with her in L.A. over the next week. So he's up visiting her in Seattle last week, and they're out on a walk. He takes a few pictures of them together. Like really cute ones with them together. Some of them they're just hanging out, and a few of them they're like kissing or whatever while they're out walking. Anyway, the next morning he wakes up, and checks his camera. He looks at the pictures, and he sees that she's woken up before him and gone into it and deleted the pictures where they're kissing, and left the ones where they're just hanging out. He goes to her and says 'Are you psycho? Why are you going into my camera?' She says it's because she thought she looked bad in the pictures, and didn't want him to have them. But he can't figure out if she's psycho or if it's legit that for girls they just hate having pictures out there where she doesn't l
ook good. He just really liked them because he likes her and doesn't judge the pics like that."
The girls will either say:
"It's totally natural. I hate it when pictures make me look bad, especially with a digital camera where you can just delete them and take more." (They also sometimes say "But he's only known her a few months. I wouldn't do that on a guy I just met.")
-or-
"She has a boyfriend!"
Your immediate reply would be "He doesn't care about that. He's busy. He just doesn't want her deleting his pics! : )"
P.S.: I like incorporating romantic stories about people hooking up the first night they met because they hit it off really well, so as to demonstrate to the girl that you aren't judgmental about people being spontaneous.
From Genemachine (www.fastseduction.com)
Review of Real Social Dynamics Seminar and Workshop, San Francisco Feb 20-22 2004
Why I took this seminar & workshop:
I believe I have strong game - I've been on ASF since the start of 2003, I used to sarge a fair bit even before I discovered ASF. I have posted plenty of LRs on ASF, and that's just the ones I've reported. However, there's always room for improvement! First, I wanted to see how I shaped up against TD, Papa and the other instructors on the course and second, I wanted to highlight any holes/weakspots in my game and strengthen them up.
Conclusions on the seminar & workshop - short version:
The seminar and workshop are absolutely incredible. I came in with high expectations, but still left blown away. The seminar covers in the classroom every aspect of PU required to have seriously tight game. The workshop demonstrates those aspects in the field and expands your view of what is possible, while providing the route map of how to get there.
Conclusions on the seminar & workshop - longer version:
I was expecting to find that my game was about on a level with the assisting instructors and that TDs would be better than mine, but not by that much. I found out that I was wrong :-)
FRIDAY NIGHT - WORKSHOP
On the first night, Friday, I had the opportunity to wing with Playboy and Xaneus and realized that there were some simple things that I could do that would make DRAMATIC difference to my game.
(Quick side note on my game pre-workshop: I had no problem opening any set in a reasonably quiet environment and could usually extract my target or at least meet or #close. However, I had found that sometimes (particularly with the hotter sets) that after I stacked a couple of openers and a routine, I didn't really know where to go - I could sense that they weren't totally warmed up yet, so going to rapport was premature, yet I didn't have anything else to say to them - lack of material basically. Problem exacerbated in louder environments where a set is tempted to not say much until they are sure they like you so much they will shout to communicate with you/allow themselves to be venue changed. Also, whilst my body language was good, it wasn't great - it wasn't CONFLICTING with the message I was trying to convey, but it sometimes wasn't ASSISTING as much as it could have been.)
So on the first night I learned:
(I) using body language more strongly to convey some initial disinterest. (thanks Xaneus :-)
(II) having more good material canned rather than relying on improvisation. (Went into a set with Playboy and he rolled out routine after routine - totally natural vibe - no way the chicks could tell this stuff wasn't spontaneous - and they're just digging him more and more with every routine. It's the kind of stuff that I could come out with spontaneously when I'm REALLY ON, but that would only be maybe one night in four, and quite tiring so that I could only sustain it for 3 or 4 sets. I knew that these guys were using SOME canned material, but seeing how incredibly effective it is in the field, and how they will use it for 20 minutes of sarging a set, not just the first 3 or 4 minutes like I have been, is truly eye-opening. Like I said, a simple thing but with a DRAMATIC impact on my game.)
SATURDAY DAY - SEMINAR
The first day of seminar was entirely instructed by TD. He is a great instructor - his presentation is lively, clear and to the point. He successfully and tirelessly conveyed a HUGE volume of material and was concerned at all times to make sure that all the students were grasping the concepts. Particularly useful for me was the segment on body language - demonstrating approaching, take-aways, rewarding, punishing - but it's weird how even the stuff that I am doing already, or that I had read about on TD's posts - somehow watching him do it and hearing him say it conveys the message a hundred times more powerfully than reading it in a post - I'll give an example of this from the Saturday night workshop.
SATURDAY NIGHT - WORKSHOP
One of the key points from the seminar was 'engage the group'. Very basic Mystery Method - I've been doing it ever since I was exposed to Mystery Method about 18 months ago - of course you talk to the UG to stop her from getting pissed, of course you don't talk to the target first. However, I really saw the true meaning when winging with instructor 'E' [damn - don't know his ASF screen name..]. We were sitting in Mel's Drive-in getting a bite to eat. There's a table of 12 sitting near us, with about 4 guys and the rest girls. 'Nice 12-set,' E comments to me. 'Yeah' I say, 'Do you wanna show me the jealous girlfriend opener - I've not really seen it in action'. E says 'Sure'. Now all I really was expecting was that he'd open perhaps 2 of the girls nearest us, and chat with them quietly and work his way into the set (this is what I would have done). Instead, in a way reminiscent of that scene in pulp fiction where Amanda Plummer holds up the dinner with 'Any of you motherf*ckers move and I'll execute every last
mother f*cking one of you!', E saunters over and opens the entire table..!!!! 'Hey guys!! Get this..I need some opinions on something...My buddy just got himself a new girlfriend etc., etc.' It TOTALLY opens - the whole table are engaged in our conversation and we stay in set for about 15 minutes until WE have had enough and want to go eat our burgers that have just arrived.. [Put that into effect a couple of nights ago out sarging with one of the guys I met on the workshop - opened a table of 3 guys and 2 girls NO PROBLEM AT ALL - before the workshop I would have figured that was too many people to take on - but if E can open 12 people, 5 is child's play. :-)
SUNDAY DAY - SEMINAR
More excellent material from TD. I'm not going to give you a laundry list - this is all stuff that he has posted on ASF already. The value comes from:
- seeing physical things demonstrated
- hearing the tonality and pace of the delivery
- seeing the facial expressions used
- and somehow just from having the stuff explained by a live person rather than reading about it makes a huge difference. I didn't think it would - I'm the kind of person that NEVER takes courses, cos I figure I can always just buy a book on something and teach myself (unless there's a physical component like in golf or tennis or something..my main motivation for taking the workshop was to meet TD et al and compare myself to them). But think about the difference between hearing someone telling you about seeing an ultra-hot girl and actually seeing one yourself - that's the difference between reading a post and seeing it demonstrated - the impact is 10 times stronger and it is processed and BELIEVED at a much deeper level.
SUNDAY NIGHT - WORKSHOP
Spent some quality time winging with TD. HOLY F*CK. Nothing in my reality to date had prepared me for this. From reading his posts, I could tell he was getting great reactions from women, but on some level I was figuring 'Yeah, but how MUCH better than the reactions I've been getting could they possibly be? All chicks take a fair amount of time to warm up - either he's exaggerating a bit or the chicks aren't that hot and are therefore just more desperate than the chicks I go after'. But seriously, he just walks up to chicks and within SECONDS they are pawing at him and looking at him with f*ck-me eyes and up for being isolated and giving massive kino. I would have been breaking down in tears with exasperation and envy had it not been for the fact that over the last 2 days he had given us a FANTASTIC road map for how to get our game to that point and that I KNEW EXACTLY HOW HE WAS DOING IT. I knew it was just a case of putting the learnings from the seminar and workshop into effect to get my game that good.
POST WORKSHOP
Since then I have been applying the learnings from the workshop in the field to great effect:
1) Ploughing girls with more material, allowing opening in tougher environments like loud clubs
2) Using false time contraints and body language to demonstrate non-neediness
3) Re-opening sets that I'd already sarged (I never realized before the workshop the extent to which the best guys are doing this - I always figured that if I opened a set and than ejected cos of lack of material, or their friend arrived or whatever, then that was it - set over. But now I see I can go back 3,4,5,6 times and still get a result!)
Here's a great example of how my game has changed since the workshop. Thursday night was out with a guy from the workshop, let's call him D. Go into a local bar and see a VERY cute chick and her friend who go and sit down with their drinks at a table. First, I'm more confident since the workshop cos I know I'm going to open well even though they're seated. So I go over, and say 'Guys - I've only got 30 secs but I need a female opinion on something' then I SIT DOWN STRAIGHT AWAY. (false time constraint and sitting down immediately both thanks to the workshop - I'd read this sh*t 100 times but never did it :-) . Run jealous girlfriend. set opens beautifully. D comes over and gives ME attention with his body language, NOT the girls (he'd blown me out of 2 sets earlier in the evening by giving the girls his BL attention on entering the set - we figured out the problem and corrected for it). He and I chat for a bit whilst we're ignoring the girls. Something comes up in OUR conversation and I reopen the girls about
it..(mostly I've sarged solo, but now since the workshop I have seen how valuable it is to have a good wing, where you can talk to each other to demonstrate disinterest, rather than just looking round or something, which you have to do if sarging solo.) We venue change, I number close - no doubt I could have taken it further - D will vouch for the fact that the girl was into me - she was qualifying herself to me and giving IOIs - this night was just about winging practice with D so we ejected, but already I can see my game MUCH stronger...
In summary, would I recommend the seminar and workshop for those who already have decent game? Yes - definitely - just like a pro-golfer will still have a coach, there is always room for improvement, and even one key piece of learning can make a huge difference to your game. Would I recommend it to those who don't yet have decent game? Yes - even more so! The seminar/workshop will give you all you need to know to develop decent game - except field experience which is your responsibility :-) This stuff is insanely effective and valuable..
New post from TD:
ACTIVE DISINTEREST DOES NOT MEAN A-SEXUAL:
I had a few thoughts this week, from watching some guys I was working with.
Some guys (I can't remember who) re-labelled the term Active Disinterest as "Tentative Interest". I think this came from Swinggcat, I'm not sure. To me this is all the same thing, but for some guys this distinction could be useful because they are learning only from text so it's important for the terminology to be as accurate as possible. Since they aren't seeing direct examples, nothing can be taken for granted I suppose.
A few pointers on this:
1- I always tell guys to focus on having fun and being social rather than appearing to be trying too hard to "pickup" (so as not to be perceived and treated as the next cheesy sexually needy guy of the night). But that said, I assume that guys are coming across like MEN here, and there is a sexual vibe between them and the girls already. Many guys I've seen though will take this too far, which is understandable, but IMO it's a mistake. I personally will pull a lot of stripper type stuff, like coquettish "You can't have me" looks. But in doing so, the fact that you're subcommunicating "you can't have me" *assumes* that the vibe between you is sexual. Otherwise, the idea of her not HAVING YOU wouldn't come up at all.. See? : )
Direct examples of ways to do so include quickly turning and facing the hot girl directly, moving a bit closer to her, and shooting a quick triangular gaze from hard eye contact down to her lips, then looking back up to her eyes and making a playful smile and backing away from her a bit to turn to her friends. Watch the girls go insane at this. You could then shoot her a playful nod like "Not gonna happen". Then engage the friends a bit, even though the hot girl knows there's something between you, and watch her work to get your attention by trying to cut in. Then when she pulls her typical "I can get what I want" girl jumping in front of everyone stuff to get your validation, say "Hey! Wait your turn. How do you guys roll with this girl?!", and then give her another VERY sexual playful look, then back off again. Even shoot her a touch on the shoulder and raise your eyebrows, and back off again. Often she'll throw herself up in your face at this point, and from there you can work her directly because she's ch
osen you. With group theory, and ignoring the target, that doesn't always mean *full* ignorance. It just means not making the friends socially uncomfortable, so that you can benefit from the girl thinking "Wow, my friends love this guy", which can only help you. It doesn't mean get pre-occupied and distracted from the goal, though, by being focused on the wrong things. Otherwise you'll get cases like the hot girls walking off so their UG friend can have a chance with you, which some newbies have reported.
Again, much apologies to the guys to whom this is a blatantly obvious truism, but after some recent posts cropping up, I suppose that it needed clarification.
Point is, once the girl has chosen you, you can get her comfortable (as posted in T/T recently) and sit her down and WORK.
For me, it is more efficient to bait the girl into chasing me within 1-2 minutes, then going in and having her screening me and working against the current. Because I have my bodylanguage and confidence down fully, I am not concerned about being sexually needy with my openers, and I know that the girls will take care of this for me 90% of the time without me having to verbally prompt them (since my bodylanguage and vibe will do this for me).
2- When opening groups of guys, you can either work the guy and ignore the girl, work the guy until he's committed to not having a prob with you being there and then move to the girl (this should take only seconds to 1 minute), or blowing the guy out completely (this last one is easily done when you are 'alpha', because the girls give you so much attention so quickly, that the guys just give up and walk away with their tail between their legs). I use all three, by using common sense.
I've seen some posts lately about what is better, going to the target or engaging the whole group. The answer is to use your brain and common sense. Do what is natural and the path of least resistance in the particular situation.
The only rule of pickup is to be clearly cooler than the girl (I recall David D calling this "The Prime Directive: Never communicate lower social value"). That being the case, take the path of least social resistance, based on what you can tell will obviously work. Many of the rules of pickup as seen on ASF are generalities and ideas that are intended to make things run more smoothly, but always need to be moderated by common sense.
My personal most common approach on guy/girl mixed sets is to engage the group, but the second the guy gives tacit consent to me being there, I blow him out on the spot and engage the girl directly. This takes only seconds. Typically I prefer for him to stay there, because I can eclipse him so strongly that him sitting there watching me only increases my status. This is like striking out like a tiger or something. Like seriously, you go in and come across way cooler than the guy within seconds, and the instant that he obviously is lower than you he is tooled and you cut into the girl and go for it. Still, if I see the girl is going crazy getting all wet by me ignoring her, I'll keep it up. Some girls are just like that, and if I see it I calibrate by playing it out. Or the dude may be just a cool guy, in which case I'll hang with him and I know he'll hook me up (which has happened to me many times). Either way, when Mystery posts about engaging the group, he is not advising the kind of Social Robot behaviours
that Style recently posted about. Have I mentioned common sense? : )
3- "Cutting in". This term is something I yell at my wings when I see them f*cking up and not cutting into the girl they want. You'll hear me yell "CUT IN!"
On average, I need only engage the group between 30 seconds to 3 minutes before I have the girl I want chasing me. Mystery is the same. He's usually in the corner with his girl in about 3-5 minutes, and making out with her in about 6-15. I differ slightly in that I prefer to extract the girl from the club and makeout at the next venue, which I do within about 20 minutes, although admittedly I'll do fast makeouts on workshop just to show off even though I don't always think its the best path at that time.
This is where many guys go wrong with the active disinterest. I want the girl close to me ASAP (within 6 inches of my face). The few ways I do this would include:
A-CUTTING IN: To cut in means to move closer to the girl, without being jumpy or nervous or getting too much in her face. It's like how you would walk up to and pick up a cat without making it run off. I do so by turning my face sideways and looking distracted for about half a second, and then closing in. Or turning my bodylanguage, or doing it on high points when she's giggly because she's suggestible at that point and if she's giggly she won't object to escalation because she's not thinking logically. Because I don't shoot into her face too abruptly, she doesn't get uncomfortable. This is done with bodylanguage. Very easy. Most guys make mistakes here because they infringe on personal space too quickly, the girls lock up. Also, because they don't look confident, it looks premeditated and too outcome dependent, which makes the girls feel uncomfortable like "What's he trying to pull?" instead of "This fun alpha guy does whatever the f*ck he wants and I don't question it because he's congruent."
Typically, I will have the girl engaged with my palms up and her hands on mine, so I can do IOI tests regularly to see where she's at. The second she's ready to be pulled, I examine the social situation and make it happen or bridge and then venue change, continue to solidify the bridge, or move to the next set. Oftentimes I am perched on a bar stool with my legs open and her leaning in between them. This is the IDEAL PUA position, and is very important. If you read Herbals latest LR in Field Reports, you'll see him talking about Mystery in this position, which is something I adopted from him and I've found very lethal. It's also great on so many levels, because you can also put her hands on your knees, and lean back to see if she keeps them there, etc., etc.
B-Use a routine: Another quick way is to run the trust test routine or something (like show her something on herself), to make her have to come up to you in order for you to demonstrate whatever it is you're doing. Again, quick and easy.
C-Bait: The other way is something that you don't do, but that just happens. That's that oftentimes the girl will see her friends liking you, and because of this she'll practically start molesting you. This is very common. The other night Deep6 is working a group, and the hottest girl attacks him and pulls him home and f*cks him within 45 minutes. Surprisingly not uncommon, although the latter case is an obvious case of fool's mate, even though the 2 dash 6 is still happily dating her now.
D-Split the set with my wing: Here you just have a wing come in and chat the girls but ignore your girl, and you just move your bodylanguage sideways and engage her in a conversation, so you can work easily here.
Notice here that regardless of how it goes down, I'm face to face with the girl within seconds to a few minutes (usually seconds to one minute). This is not a case where I'm forced to engage the set for long. It's simple social common sense to work social gatherings and to take the path of least resistance. You need not do so, its just often easier and more consistent if you do. Yes, girls are picked up without group theory or any knowledge of ASF, so the aforementioned remarks are obvious truisms. The point is ease and consistency.
The same goes for not facing the girls when you roll in. I've seen guys who have read old posts of mine where I've suggested to enter the set initially sideways. This is the path of least resistance, and there is definitely no harm done in doing so, but oftentimes it can help to make it open more smoothly. That said, it is important not to forget the part from that same post about "The second she earns it, turn and face her". Her giving you her attention (Style calls this the "Hook Point") will usually happen within 1-15 seconds, and at that point you should be engaging them completely, and running your game on them. If it takes longer, wait. But that's an error at that point, and you're in damage control (still, I've pulled many sets that opened awkwardly).
SUMMARY:
Get the girl engaged ASAP. Active Disinterest does not mean that you are A-Sexual. Use active disinterest and engage the group when common sense tells you that it is the path of least resistance. If her interest level is at a point where you need not do so, then don't. Mystery himself has done this as long as I've known him, and guys need not be concerned about losing sets by doing so. If you detect that the friends WILL interfere, you can also re-engage them easily if you feel that that is the best move.
Anyway, hopefully this had some useful distinctions to some of you guys. To me this seems very obvious, but after browsing some recent posts and seeing some guys in the field who had no previous real life interactions with PUAs, I felt that it was something may have been in need of clarification.
I also recommend that guys go out and experiment with both extremely direct sexual approaches, and group theory / AD approaches. This is the only way to gain calibration skills -> experimentation.
Greetings from Sydney Australia, btw. I'm down here right now, and the girls here are *unreal* in some of the clubs and beaches. I've had an amazing week, and I'm visiting with my sister who I haven't seen in two years - so obviously I'm having an amazing time.
Ish (Workshop Review):
I am new to this seduction stuff, and I guess I would be classified as an AFC.
You can be taught the theory but you are still trusting in stuff you have no idea works, and there you have it, the major problem, doubt! As we all know, doubt and confidence mix as well as oil and water.
This is where TD, Papa and co are worth their weight in gold.
Tyler started the night with a few hours of theory, going through openers and general ideas for the game. This stuff was intriguing, I could feel the switches clicking in my brain. "This stuff could work!" is what I thought.
I then realized, I need material, I need stories, funny comments, etc.
This kind of stuff normally comes to me but I was drawing a blank! All this information from the DYD seminar, TD's theories and minimal sleep had left my brain frazzled. I need to process what I learned. She canna take anymore c'ptain, she's gonna blow! Thank God TD has a few tried and true openers available.
There is nothing like the fear of knowing that something bad is coming and you just want it over with. Specially when you are doing something out of your comfort zone.
Time to do what we came here for.
So we start wandering around the place, one of teachers grabs me and thrusts me at a target, Don't think about it, just do it is all I am told. Bam, instant crash and burn, I walk back to the teacher assessing my hurts, no broken bones, hmmm that was not so bad! So maybe a bad result gamewise, but the realization that these are just girls and there is nothing to fear.. Good result for me..
I then attach myself to another teacher and watch him crack this HB Swedish .. nice!
Going over the mantra of "I am cool, this is fun and they can't hurt me," I approach a group of 4 at the bar, and I am in, the opener worked, they are all talking to me. Anyway after 30 minutes, I realize that the one I am into is married and the other is pregnant (she was sitting on a bar stool, go figure), leaving the other 2 who I am just not into. I bail.
Most of the night was spent either approaching sets alone, with a teacher or with other students, with varying results.
There were two other experiences that really did open my eyes. One was watching TD in action with this HB easily a 9, who was talking to an AMOG. Within minutes the guy is gone. He comes back and she doesn't want any part of him, so she pushes him away. Next thing TD has whisked her off to a secluded spot. I guess that be the point of that lesson. Nice!
Lastly, close to the end of the night, I was told to open this set of 2 nice HB's. They are sitting around this fountain, and I open it. A teacher comes in and the next thing you know another HB is there to CB.
Thinks go bad when the teacher over negs her, she gets vicious.. We are talking physical, pushing and screaming. Myself and the HB I am talking to are staring at the scene thinking WTF! I want out, anyone who has friends like this needs help. So we both eject. Teacher finishes with a childish wave, and I can't help but smirk. Personally if it had been me, I would have verbally backhanded her, which is one of my specialties. I guess that is why I am here!
What an experience, who would have thought there was a whole new world out there! If someone would have told me about this scene about 2 weeks ago, I would not have believed them. The applications are enormous, it is like taking an instant popularity pill. My initial thought when I got a taste of this stuff was not about picking up women, but about being able to talk to anyone with no hesitation.
So if you are wondering how I ended up, well no #'s. I wasn't even thinking about it! But hey all I can say is thanx guys, you have created a monster..
The question is how well I am going to do after 3 days of the seminar and the workshops next weekend! Giddyup!
''Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh - learn their secrets and achieve TRUE unlimited power at www.cultsecrets.com''
Here's a real interesting new ebook. The site begins with the author, after studying various seduction methods and NLP materials, asking himself "Why weren't women getting addicted to me? Why wasn't I having threesomes and moresomes?! I studied and applied all the techniques but I wasn't obtaining my true desires." So here he proposes that after having studied the cult leaders he has learned the secrets of getting what he truly wants out of life. We need a review of this!
Angel, Ryobi and Lockst0ck are offering a range of courses in London specifically tailored to meet the current level of each student. Seminars are combined with in-field practice and limited to one student per instructor to give maximum value to participants. Check out their website at www.impactinteraction.com for full details and reviews."
PROMOS & REVIEWS SECTION (there are NO paid ads in this list and never have been. The "commercial" section is distinguished by the "--------------" separators):
DAVID NEWS:
We now have a new writer working on the book who is enthusiastically absorbing all of David's ideas and is working feverishly to get this show on the road. David has been doing a lot more personal consultations lately and will hopefully have his newsletter out shortly. We still need questions by email and it would be appreciated if you could ask David about any related topic that could be of interest (how to find, meet, attract, close and keep women, etc.).
Please send them to him at david@be-relentless.com. I would recommend you copy me as well (cliff@cliffslist.com) so I will make sure they get answered.
All subscribers of these emails will be given a free subscription and, as here, you can unsubscribe at any time. I know that you will find his comments and advice to be pretty unique and very useful. We are also making progress on the long awaited book which we hope will be ready relatively soon now.
The tapes of the David Seminar are now available and are being shipped upon receipt of your order, but please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. You can visit the website at www.be-relentless.com and orders should be made through paypal (go to www.paypal.com and send money to sales@be-relentless.com) if you need some other way to make payment, inquire at info@be-relentless.com. This product comes on two DVD discs for a total of approximately 6 1/2 hours of playing time. The price is $230 USD + $20 USD for the DVD which covers shipping and handling anywhere in the world. Inquire about shipping by overnight courier. These tapes are now available in a sound only version also.
Private in person or telephone consultations with David are available. David is particularly intuitive with regard to your specific individual problems with certain women. You can get on the phone, answer his questions on the situation, and he will give you very insightful advice on how to succeed in your particular mission.
PLEASE NOTE: This David is not to be confused with David DeAngelo of www.doubleyourdating.com (who has posted some great stuff here under the name "Sisonpyh"), or David Shade (of www.davidshade.com).
Doc gives a class titled "How to Pick Up Women: Learn to Be Irresistible to Them!" in Toronto.
He also gives a "Power Dating" speed dating event there as well. This is a great opportunity to learn from a real master.
Real Social Dynamics WORKSHOPS:
I highly recommend that you check these guys out. Anyone interested in attending, email Nick at nkho50@yahoo.com with the subject "WORKSHOP" and mention that you heard about it from Cliff's List. Also note: RSD will consider working out payment plans to make their workshop affordable - mention this to them.
Real Social Dynamics (www.realsocialdynamics.com/ ):
Learn what works in seminar, and then jump directly into the field and watch the instructors demonstrate and teach it live. Stop feeling the fear of not knowing what to do ...
Classroom Seminars ($200 deposit required for signup)
Saturday/Sunday 11:00am - 9:00pm
Sydney Seminar - $300 - March 13-14, 2004
New York Seminar - $300 - April 24-25, 2004
Los Angeles Seminar - $300 - May 29-30, 2004
Amsterdam Seminar - $300 - July 3-4, 2004
Montreal Seminar - $300 - July 10-11, 2004
London Seminar - $300 - August 21-22, 2004
In-Field Workshops ($200 deposit required for signup)
Friday/Saturday/Sunday 9:00pm - 2:30am
Sydney Workshop - $600 - March 12-14, 2004
New York - Workshop - $600 - April 23-April 25, 2004
Los Angeles Workshop - $600 - May 28-30, 2004
Amsterdam Workshop - $600 - July 2-4, 2004
Montreal Workshop - $600 - July 2-4, 2004
London Workshop - $600 - August 20-22, 2004
Individualized Boot-Camps ($200 deposit required for signup)
Friday/Saturday/Sunday 1:00pm - 2:30am
· Individualized Boot-Camp -$1500 - Schedule Date/Location with Papa
Go to www.realsocialdynamics.com/ to signup for the next events on their schedule as they are launching a new program.
Mystery Method Workshops:
Mysterymethod.com and mysterysexmagic.com do not exist anymore and are redirected to Real Social Dynamics.
Swinggcat has published a new ebook which you can check out at his website at www.realworldseduction.com. Those of you who remember his outstanding posts here will be anxious to get this as soon as possible. Highly recommended.
Speed Seduction Seminars (www.speedseduction.net/)
Here is the 2004 schedule:
Speed Seduction Seminars:
April 30-May 2 NYC
Sept 3,4,5 London England
Unstoppable Personal Influence Mastery (women encouraged to attend!)
May 7-9 NYC
Sept 10, 11, 12 London England
Major Mark (www.trucor.com) has announced his schedule for 2004:
*Marknosis And Magick In Miami-- May 7-9
At the heart of every effective Change technology -- like organized religion, psychology and magick -- we find a common set of states and effects that allow you to truly experience and subsequently Believe. Join us in South Beach as we explore the hypnotic elements of Ritual and Magick. Sun, surf, sultry nights and amazing sights as we create our own body of powerful personal rituals for self-exploration, self-development, and the quest for Power and Influence in this world as well! Come for the toolbox of techniques that maximize influence within ritual behaviors, or just come to step through the looking-glass and begin living
*Beyond Seduction In Montreal -- July 16-18
Cliff's Comment: MONTREAL!!!!
*Introduction To Hypnosis -- The New Curriculum -- Las Vegas September 20-24
This year we were asked by a national hypnosis group to develop a New Curriculum for the training of hypnotists -- one which would reflect the absolute best of what has always worked while incorporating our own cutting-edge discoveries. We wanted a curriculum that was so comprehensive in explication and exercise that the graduates could walk into an internship anywhere in the world, secure that they were the best-trained hypnotists in the place. The result is being rolled out over five days in Las Vegas. This is your chance to immerse yourself in the most comprehensive approach to powerful, positive, permanent change ever presented!
Send mail to Cassi@trucor.com with questions or comments about these seminars.
Call to register: 419 882-8543 or go to www.trucor.com
Double Your Dating LIVE! NEW Seminar! We will be reviewing all of the new DYD products here soon, including the monthly interview series in which David DeAngelo interviews "Dating Gurus" such as (), David X, and many others.
NEW SEMINAR IN SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA!! Saturday, March 6th & Sunday, March 7th
2004 Tentative Seminar Schedule:
Los Angeles at the end of April or beginning of May. This will be a one time, 4 day program, all new material.
London, England, July.
New York September.
Las Vegas beginning of December.
You can order all your DYD products and register for seminars through this link: www.doubleyourdating.com/cl
Riker's Seduction Log - Live Seminar
If you always wanted to hear more field reports, with full details, and even some recordings, then this seminar is for you. Dave Riker (Ross's co-trainer for those of you who don't know him) spends about 3 hours each evening going through his personal Logs and notes and provides full reports on sarges, many from start to close (finish). And that's a full "close" by the way, not just an email address or phone number!
The seminar is held in conjunction with Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction Seminars. Ross's seminar is during the day (and Riker presents at that too) and then Riker does his seminar in the evening. And even if you do not attend Ross's seminar you can still attend Riker's.
For full details see the web page at: http://www.daveriker.com/logseminar/track/cl.htm (site is either inactive or no longer relevant)
Be sure to check out his "Reviews" page on his site. Many guys that have been in the game for a while, and attended a LOT of seminars, were just blown away by Riker's Log seminar.
Introducing 1 on 1 Badboy workshops:
Badboy is a Croatian PUA from Zagreb who has spent almost 4 years in the game. He is a respected poster in Mystery's lounge and he has held workshops together with TylerDurden and Papa.
To see some of his stuff, search for posts by "croBadboy" on mASF or read one of the recent issues of Cliff's list.
Workshops are 1 on 1 for 3 days.
Each day consists of a 4-hour seminar and 5 hours of active in-field work. Each night you will make 20-30 approaches with your teacher to get field experience. 1 on 1 training makes it possible to answer any questions you might have and cover the most important aspects of the game in detail. Teachings are tailored to your level in the game.
The basic structure of the workshop is:
Day 1:
Social intelligence/emotional intelligence
How to dress, peacocking vs. dressing style
Alpha-male bodylanguage secrets
Attitude (inner-game) and getting a good seductive voice
Difference between emotional and party type girls
Social dynamics in clubs (2sets/3sets/lonewolves), know your city
Openers (sets with males vs. only-girl sets)
Day 2:
Difference between PUing alone and with a wing
Different tools for getting attraction
Power of contrast (bad boy & nice guy in one)
Stealing their frames
Passing sh*t tests
Push-pull
Isolation tactics(2steps)
Day 3:
AMOG tactics (the AMOG handshake, group set AMOG destroyers)
Boyfriend destroyers
Passing LMR
Secrets of good s*ex
How to manage a good relationship
More bodylanguage secrets
How to turn Coffee dates into f*ck-fest in just 1 hour
How to turn a 0$ date into a time she will never forget
Difference between PUing in different places (small towns, big cities, colleges and the difference between certain clubs and the girls who go there)
Badboy says he can write a pages of what he does with guys because it's not just PU. He opens their EYES to LIFE, to understand how to live successfully.
BADBOY COMES TO THE U.S.!!
Workshop dates for 2004 are:
San Diego (March 4-5-6) 8 seats available
LA March (ask for dates on email)
Hawaii workshop, to be announced
For more info, email Badboy at badboy@playboylifestyle.net. See Badboy's new website: www.playboylifestyle.net
Thundercat's Seduction Lair
Get the latest News, Rumors, Tips, Tricks, & Analysis on the Pick-Up and Seduction community! The site is updated daily with lots of free and exclusive content.
Also a good way to keep up with things without having to navigate mASF. Drop By TSL today!
www.thundercatseductionlair.com
Visit this site:
http://www.sexualrapportmodeling.com/jump.php?a=2350 (site is either inactive or no longer relevant)
Daniel:
If you are looking for a wing and you are a guy from Romania, you can check on our forums at www.seductierapida.ro/forum and you might find one.
Carlos Xuma:
Time is running short for all of us, no matter how young or old you are. Don't waste precious years learning by trial and error (and most likely not at all). Get the information on how to improve your dating life TODAY. Make the changes you need to make to get the love, s*ex, and relationships that you want and DESERVE to have. Download THE DATING BLACK BOOK right now at: www.datingdynamics.com/ebookstore.htm
() (@.com ):
has a system and set of Tarot Cards that he his going to be launching soon. Find out more at his website.
P.S. Try magic words 'ben' 'rap' and 'nlp'.
A few sites to check out:
Mike Pilinski is the author of "Without Embarrassment: The Social Coward's Totally Fearless Seduction System"... a unique method of meeting girls that will have you making up for wasted time spent living in shy-guy hell from the very first moment you test it out. Check it Out Here => www.highstatusmale.com/.
David Wygant (www.whatsyourexcuse.com & www.mydatingagent.com).
Swinggcat: www.realworldseduction.com
Erick Kand has a new website that showcases Hypnosis Stage Shows for fun and entertainment: www.HypnosisEvents.com
The Foundations of Seduction
Hi, you know something? When it comes to seductionhey, when it comes to ANYTHING--how you feel has a huge impact on the results you get. But the way you feel doesn’t have to be determined by your surroundings, your expectations, others’ behavior, or the tides and stars. You can guide your own feelings. By doing so, you can adjust and enhance your results. You can replace frustration with the satisfaction of tangy, blood-red, salty-sweet resolve. When you can change the way you feel, you can change what you experience… and what you encounter… and then the world stands revealed as something you yourself partially create. Sometimes, to begin claiming the victories you deserve, all you need is a simple little tool: a way of channeling your own emotions. A way of tapping your inner fire. A way of taking that inner fire, and letting it melt your external obstacles. A way of changing all that you feel, about all that you experience. Of course, you may not need or want such a tool. For some, the ability to guide and
drive one’s own emotional experience is pretty basic stuff. Some people shrug off rejection, feel wonderful almost all the time, and easily attain their goals. If that’s true for you, and you don’t think you can add to your abilitywell, you may be right. In that case, my new CD may not be for you. On the other hand, should you want a tool meant to ease the transition to seductive success… to productive success… to any kind of success, maybe this new CD can be of use to you. It’s called "Foundations of Seduction". You can get it for $29.97 plus $5 Priority Mail s/h, by going here: www.sexualkey.com/ Just enter "$34.97" into the FlexPay box and then email me at info@sexualkey.com with your shipping address and a note that you’ve ordered "Foundations of Seduction". If you’re outside the U.S., please add an additional $5 for shipping. Have fun! JD www.sexualkey.com/
LOUIS AND COPELAND'S "FREEDOM WITH WOMEN" SEMINAR DATES
To find out more about "Freedom with Women", contact
davidc@howtosucceedwithwomen.com
Advanced Macking:
In case you want a step by step guide on how to get into one-night stands, check out Anthony Berger's Advanced Macking manual. What makes it unique is that it is engineered towards making it happen the same night you meet them. To learn how to persuade women back to your pad, check out his site: www.advancedmacking.com/Discount.htm
Michael:
If you want to improve not only your game, but also your understanding of women on a deeper level, so that you can have more successful relationships, you've got to come out to my Live Dating Wizard Seminar in downtown Toronto, February 21st and 22nd. It will be two FULL days of non-stop IMMERSION giving you a whopping,eye-opening insight into how to be successful with women on a whole new level.
This is going to be a special seminar where Smooth, the President of the Toronto Lair, will enrich the seminar as a guest speaker. Smooth will lend his rich experience and expertise in several areas, including TONS of experience in real seductions of hotties that are met online.
To learn more about this special seminar, go to:
And follow the "Seminars" link.
And if you haven't downloaded my eBook, "The Dating Wizard: Secrets to Success with Women", then that's the place to get started.
This book is meant for today's situation with women in the Western world. I give you step-by-step details on how to approach women, how to get instant dates, how to get physical, and how to sustain her interest if you desire a relationship. Best of all, you won't even have to be a jerk to OUTDO the jerks!
Download it now at:
And follow the link to "About The Dating Wizard"
FREE HYPNOSIS MINI-TUTORIAL
The UltimateSeduction Yahoo group, at groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/ is sponsoring a free one-month mini-tutorial on Conversational Hypnosis. This tutorial, presented by the hypnotist Archangel, is sectioned off into five parts:
1. Trance Words
2. Rapport
3. Persuasion Anchoring
4. Pacing, &
5. Leading
Although less than halfway through, members are reporting some highly entertaining, and some startling, success stories. The UltimateSeduction group has the advantage of having more than a few women on-list, enabling members to get some very pointed straight talk on their techniques. There is nothing to memorize - only a handful of very simple, and very effective, techniques. The group is gaining about 200 new members a week and is lightly moderated.
Anyone may join the tutorial at: groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/
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