Before I collected my thoughts she was gone

Darren:
> MB: Indian Motorcycle Club is certainly a good choice of venue as it is wide open and women tend to be a little older and more receptive to PUA . I go there sometimes and always get good results. What I got out of this report was more of what was not said rather than what was said. Using magic and performing to attract attention? Fine but where is the expression of actual liking and desire for the woman or some form of admiration or fascination with her? The report mentioned that many times this went nowhere and there were disappointments or lukewarm disinterest.

Darren: The Mystery Method is primarily designed for GROUPS. You do not go in expressing interest in the target right away, because her friends may later cockblock you. Believe me, I have had this happen. I am wondering how YOU handle this issue. Does this not happen to you? You DO want to express interest once SHE has expressed interest in you (through IOIs). Also, understand that I was approaching groups -- meaning 2-sets to sometimes as large as 6-sets -- so that most of the time, I was not actually talking to the target , but to the obstacles instead. I am also just starting to learn the Mystery Method, so my routines need more rehearsing and fine-tuning, and I only had a handful of routines rehearsed, so it's quite understandable that the obstacles may not have been gushing with interest and excitement this first weekend. I will get better. Finally, I think that in order to learn something new, sometimes, you do have to take two steps backwards at first before you make a giant leap forward. With my previous style, I might have been able to get more numbers, but that wasn't my intention that weekend; my goal was to learn the Mystery Method.

> MB: Interesting since the method of expressing desire and what a woman does to me produces three results - an immediate closeness and liking and a close or immediate closeness and liking but "I have a husband or a boyfriend" but they still stick around and even offer numbers regardless or an outright "fuck off, asshole" which is usually a man hater or a very insecure woman, one which I do not want anyway. But never or extremely rarely are the indifferent or just lukewarm. I am amazed that with so many walk ups and tries you did not achieve a greater level of success than you did. But at one point in my lifetime I as well had the same shit kicked out of me before I learned to genuinely express my attraction and desire for a woman when I saw her. How about listening to women and actually talking to them - all you relate was "your performance" or "magic tricks." How about some good solid relating to her not better tricks or whatever? Perhaps the error was not the lack of better tricks but the lack of expression of actual liking of her verbally or non verbally?

Darren: Yes, I think there is certainly a place for listening to women and actually talking to them, but in order to get there in a club or bar setting, you often need to get past her friends, who may get jealous of their friend, or who may simply not like you. Befriend the obstacles , and isolate the target , and it's smooth sailing from there. At this point, you can run a few routines, do SS patterning (which includes asking questions and gathering information), and so on. By the way, magic tricks or other gimmicks DO NOT make the approach; they are simply PART of it. In fact, I don't think I did ANY magic (except for some mentalism, which failed anyway). I have never really tried directly expressing interest or desire to a woman at the very beginning. I am curious to how this will work. I have seen AFCs (some are even quite good-looking) go up to HBs and say, "You are hot!" or "You are so pretty" only to have them just smile and say "thank you" or laugh about it with their friends. I know that is not what you do. I'd like to watch you work a room sometime. Your approach intrigues me, and I think it might be something that could work for me. Of course, I imagine that your looks do empower your approaches more than for the average guy. I'm quite close to Toronto (1.5 hours away) -- let's go sarging together sometime. I can come up to Toronto, or you can come down to Buffalo. I imagine that coming to Buffalo would be more interesting for you, as the women and the dynamics here might be a little different from those in Toronto, and you may learn something new.

> MB: I was busy and couldn't, so I backed off. She sometimes just waved from afar after I asked her out or ignored me completely most of the time but this time she offered me a kiss. This time she says "Mark, I'll come back and talk to you when you finish eating". Now these girls know I never get dances so their purpose was not to try and get dances. All I did was just sit there quietly, focus on my food, let them talk and feel unjudged - no magic, no performances, no other funny stuff. They are the performer and I am the appreciative audience - entertain me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Darren: Again, I do think there is a place for letting them talk and babble. Women love a man who can listen. But I think you have to intrigue them enough, especially in a club or bar, to stay there and babble to you, and you have to ask the right questions, and you can't just sit there, COMPLETELY silent (we call that talking to a wall) -- you have to DEMONSTRATE to them that you are ACTIVELY listening. It still comes back to the challenge of getting past her friends to get to your target . You didn't have that problem in the scenarios you illustrated.
> MB: I think you border on the extreme. But you just proved my point as to what you need to do to succeed - knock on doors until you get one that bites. My technique is really one of no technique really. The no technique technique is really just paying attention to what is happening and then just responding to that and gently moving the process along by being upfront, honest, expressive and sincere. You adapt to what is happening - you mention a blow job and if her eyes light up, you keep on the topic. If she looks at you in disgust, you change gears and find something else to talk about.

Darren: I think Mark actually has quite a bit of technique. He is paying attention to what the woman says, calibrating,and finding what really excites her and puts her into positive states and keeping up those topics of conversation. This is what you want to do in SS , as Ross pointed out. I imagine that Mark could be more successful if he learned more SS , because it seems to fit with his style; I suspect that he thinks of SS right now as just canned patterns, which is an outdated model of the technology. Mark is also able to adapt and flow, using what the woman gives him and working with it to his advantage.

Mark B.:
> Ross: Now, I think this is a good place from which to start. Assume women ARE sexual beings, enjoy sex, want to be with men, etc. This is one of a few key understandings/cognitions that leads to great success. It is a necessary understanding, and, by itself, probably isn't enough.

MB: And sexual beings they are. Just think back to the last time you boned a girl. Did you look at her eyes, her face, her mouth, her body, the way she moaned, the way she screamed and tell me she is not a sexual being. Every woman I look at I assume that she is just waiting to express herself sexually and this makes my job of getting her 1,000's of times easier.
> Ross: So out of 70, you got 35 to go out, and of those, about 17 you nailed. I'm trying to see if that is right.

MB: Yeah, just about right. Now many of those were one or two dates where I either did not like them enough for a second date or third date or they decided they did not like me that way. Most of the ones I boned were only maybe once or twice because either the sex was not good or they were too much to handle or I did not like them enough to pursue any further. But a few I saw more often and boned regularly which made up the bulk of the 120-150 times I fucked last year. The old 80/20 rule I guess. Now, remember that I initiated conversations with about maybe 225-250 women all year and many times they went nowhere and I did not even bother asking those out so the 35 out of 70 is not 70 women I approached I got to date 35. Out of the say 250 the 70 were women I thought I had good enough of a chance to see but only about half agreed.
> Ross: No, I don't think this is AFC at all. In fact, if you were to video the ways in which you listened to them and talked to them, I bet you would find within, many aspects of seductive patterning. Perhaps not canned speeches, but that is now a VERY small part of Speed Seduction. A huge part is knowing how to pay attention, ask questions, get the right information and use it. That IS "patterning".

MB: I am not good at canned speeches but I like to have themes in terms of what I talk about. I will talk about sex, blowjobs, attraction, beauty, romance, having fun but just not in a pattern type of way. This way women feel free to express that side to themselves. I tell women that I play with myself in the shower and they admit to also doing it, even at work. I'll say "I am not at all inhibited sexually. In fact, I say that "I will do anything in bed" to which they say "yeah, me too". BUT I still have to initiate sex or kissing if I want to bone them a they rarely come out on their own.
> Ross: I would really like you to get that I am not arguing with you, Mark. From your perspective and experience, every word you say is true. But like a fish, so used to being in water, you have no concept of "dry", you are so used to walking through the world in a body that looks good enough to attract women on sight (you've mentioned how women compliment your looks and body), it is hard for you to see or comment on what is required for guys who aren't so blessed. Yes, I display my balls when I walk up and openly express that they don't know me, but I think they are very attractive and I wanted to meet them. This IMPRESSES them, but alone, will not create attraction. I, personally, except for a few rare cases, must use how I listen, talk, pay attention, touch, use my energy and voice and will and intent..all of that working together, to create the attraction.

MB: Ross, buddy, I do this as well. You think I am that good looking but I do not believe that I really am, maybe above average at best. I have been experimenting with being a little bit more quiet and subdued when I talk to women and they are drawn to me much much more than if I stayed loud and obnoxious. Irrespective of my looks, I feel that I still need to use words as much as you to succeed and use them the right way. In fact, what you describe above is almost exactly what I do as well. I feel though that this process does not create attraction but helps to bring it out of them. This is where our respectful differences of opinion lie.
> Ross: THEN I can express directly what I want from them. But I have to do it in the right sequence and order, or I don't very often at all get anywhere. Strong confidence/balls/directness impresses them sufficiently to get them to listen and pay attention to the rest of it, which creates the attraction. I believe that the ways in which you talk and listen and ask questions ARE patterns, and if I looked at a transcript, I could probably break it down.

MB: Maybe there are patterns there. I'll play Kiss' "Lick it up" in the car and get them to sing along with me or "I was made for loving you baby, you were made for love me" also by Kiss. They give me that "fuck me" look and I know I am in.
> Ross: So even you are doing more than you know. You may not be doing trance demonstrations or reciting the blow job pattern, but I don't think you need to; remember, women are getting hot just LOOKING at you before you open your mouth, based on your muscles, etc. etc, etc. For many of us here, we don't walk into it with that advantage. It makes me a bit frustrated that this is such a hard point for you to get or accept.

MB: I think that also body language is extremely important - more so than looks, actually. I make sure that I smile at women with that "I just want to fuck you like an animal" look. This is where you smile but you raise your lower lip above your upper teeth but you keep your lips together, you tilt your head down and slightly to the side and sort of let your eye lids drop somewhat for those bedroom eyes and look at them directly in the eye when you are talking to them. This is what I do when I am with them and many have said "Mark, you look like you have sex in your eyes." On the flip side, women that are not attracted to me find this very uncomfortable so this is a good test whether they are open to boning.
> Ross: YOU do not create attraction. YOU do not need to. Your body is your calling card. I can and DO create attraction. We can go into debates about multiplying zeros, but here is my point: I might initially get SOME curiosity..intrigue...etc. But to get a woman to feel the feelings in her body...her tummy feeling butterflies, her pussy feeling physically hot and wet...I have to DO something with my words, touch, etc. YOU get that just walking up, so of course, you don't need to do as much. Yes, a woman has SOME initial interest in what I say, by virtue of my confident approach. BUT..and this is the BUT..that interest does NOT include the physical feelings of sexual attraction. I have to create that. I know, because I debrief my women and virtually NONE have told me they felt those feelings for me when I first walked up. Impressed, intrigued, yes. I will say it one more time: I...HAVE...TO....CREATE....ATTRACTION. So do most guys. You don't. You are lucky.

MB: O.K. Good point, Ross. Let's not argue over this again. I have my view on this and so do you.
> Ross: Congrats. You are sarging her. You are taking the initial physical attraction based on your looks alone and amping it up by how you pay attention and using her responses. Get it out of your head that SS is about a series of recited speeches. That is the model from 1993.

MB: I am beginning to see that attractiveness is more a way of behaving rather than a way of looking. When I am cool, calm, collected, quiet, hushed, my face is relaxed and I move very deliberately I have found new interest from women that previously would not even look my way. So much for physical attraction as being the dominant factor for attraction.
> Ross: If you are really great looking and they get hot and wet just looking at you, you have to do less work. This is my only point. I don't see why I can't get a simple agreement on something that is as common sense and a part of everyday life as gravity.

MB: No woman has ever said to me "You are hot. I want to bang you". They have never expressed a desire to fuck me on the basis of my appearance. It is always on the basis of emotions that I have been able to elicit from them. By the way, there is no such thing as gravity in the sense of earth having some special pulling power on objects. What keeps us on earth is that the earth bends space around itself thus creating a down special sort of like slide that keep us on earth.
> Gregory Rasputin: You're right on, Mark. This is exactly how I feel. Because I am open with girls they want to be open with me. If a girl turns me on, I'm not gonna be ashamed of it. My emotions are who I am, I'm gonna tell her. Girls can tell when you're using a line to get results, and when you're being yourself.

MB: Yes, I do this all the time. In fact, I call it the first thought response. I get a thought and then I externalize it for myself. This is where some of you may think that it's not right to compliment a woman but if that is my thought at the moment then that is what I say. If I am riding in the car with her and I want to hold her hand I will and then tell her how good it feels for me to hold it. No canned lines or any other crap.
>"You know, society teaches you to pursue love, and talks about how glorious it is. And society also teaches you from the age of 12 that sex is some sort of a forbidden sin that you have to be extremely careful about. But if love and sex are the same thing, then how can this make sense?" Get it guys? I bombard women with things like this, and use all my patterning skills to let them grow wings , strong, powerful wings , that allows them to just break away from the chains that society imprisoned them in, and do what feels right, with me.

MB: I'll tell her "sex between two people is so wonderful but sometimes you are single so you have no recourse but to do it with yourself. In fact, I have been playing with myself since the age of 12." They love this and frees them to open up about their sexual preferences. I also tell them how North American society restricts sexual freedom and how it is different in Europe where I lived for 10 years of my life. I guess there is some sort of a pattern there "....feel free to express your sexuality......let go of your inhibitions........allow yourself to cum.......express your desires....."
> I used to be afraid to approach girls, to flirt with girls, to normally talk with girls, and especially to lay down any sexual moves with girls. Thanks to the.speed-seduction.community, I learned how to approach and got the confidence to know that I can do it. So I began approaching girls. Thanks to SS , I learned some amazing things I could do with words, and so I became confident in talking with girls, but the sexual department still gave me trouble until I realized this: I am not the clothes I wear, the car I drive, the job I have, the friends I hang out with, or the girls I'm after. I'm not the language I speak, I'm not even my name. I am the emotions I feel, the thoughts I think, and the actions I do. That's all I am, and I'm very fucking proud of it.

MB: Women are not that scary. Since I have gone out there I am surprised by the variety of responses from women. From downright total rigidity to total sexual openness but you never know that until you open your mouth first and steer the conversation that way. And when you do sometimes you open up something that "blows you" away.
> That's why if I want to say something, I'll say it. It entered my head I'm not gonna suppress it, and if I want to DO something, then I will just know when it's right to do it, and I will do it. At this point in my life, I don't think about how I'll approach a girl, I don't think about the pattern I'll use. I approach them naturally, because what an approach is for me, is me giving them a chance to taste my personality, and I'm proud of my personality, so I have no trouble approaching. I never think about what pattern to use because it became part of who I am. I normally speak in patterns, and always create very, very vivid images just with my words, and I'm proud of that, too.

MB: We can only be what we are. I believe David from Montreal says this - just express your immediate thoughts. Last week, I was in a mall and a super hot blond HB10 walked right across from me. I was lost in thought and it happened so fast that before I collected my thoughts she was gone. I hoped to find her later but I could not. What I should have done is got her attention and said "You know, I have been walking here and I noticed you but I was lost in thought and not in the frame of mind to say anything of meaning but I noticed and you I would love to have an opportunity to talk to you again" or something of this sort. But what works really well is to just have a clear mind and let things just come out on their own. Not only is this very relaxing and easy but it also seems natural and uncontrived - because it is.
> Gregory Rasputin: Mark, you're describing me here. I have no objection with telling a woman that she is very beautiful to me, and that I care for her, but I also have no objection with telling a woman to stop bothering me if she gives me bullshit. I don't see this as a game (I used to). I'm nice, if she deserves it. I let my girlfriend hear my deepest poetry, I make her feel so appreciated sometimes her eyes tear up and she can't let go of me, but if she's late, for example, to something then I just won't call, and let her chase me and make it up to me. If my girl always deserves a good treatment, I'll always give her a good treatment, without being afraid that she'll get bored, because 1) I KNOW I'm the only guy who can make her feel this way (because she tells me) and 2) people never say to themselves "You know, all these incredible feelings sure are nice, but I'm getting kinda bored, I think I'll go find a way to feel shitty".

MB: You sound just like me as well. I tell women they are special to me, that I love them and love to be with them, that I am happy to be with them and they make me feel good inside. At the same time if she gets out of line, I will let her know right away. And if I do not feel like fucking I will not no matter how much she begs me. Or, if I feel like being alone I tell her, or if I do not feel like calling I will not call her. I treat them like princesses but I never, ever tolerate bullshit and if it happens I let them know right away.
> MB: But ultimately, what makes an AFC - how he does what he does or the results he gets? Gregory Rasputin: What makes an AFC ? The fact that he has no pride in his thoughts, his emotions, or his actions, but instead his pride comes from the car he drives and the career he has.

MB: I threw this question out as a rhetorical one but your answer is interesting, nonetheless. I feel that the implied definition of AFC in the seduction community is one who acts a certain way irrespective of the results he gets. To me, an AFC is one who cannot express his emotions and his desires and as result does not get laid. I am not normally an emotional guy but I was watching a biography on NFL great running back Walter Payton on A&E that did something to me. This guy wore his emotions on his sleeve, he showed great caring for his team-mates often hugging them and showing great affection, he showed his sadness on the field and cried in public when he was dying. After his death, many of his team-mates cried during his eulogy. I never cry about anything I see on TV, but this time I cried after seeing this outpour of emotions toward this man. And I have nothing but respect for him and those that are able to show how they feel openly. An AFC is the ultimate at hiding his emotions and the F frustrated part of AFC is the struggle that is between his emotions and thoughts wanting to come out and his suppression of them in fear of being rejected.
> Gregory Rasputin: How I love hearing those words, Mark. That's true, women do want to be taken. I mean, I do believe that they all get aroused from the thought of dominating their super-confident hunk in bed, but anywhere else they want to have the decisions made for them by someone who's confident. AFC 's are never confident, so when they make their decisions the women think that they don't know what they're doing. When I tell a girl something she says things like "Somehow, I know that in the end, you're right", because I KNOW I'm right, too. I wanna make the decisions in the relationship.

MB: I noticed there is a huge difference between what women say and what they do. Now this distinction does not bother me anymore as I found that just paying attention to body language is more important than the words they say. For example, they'll say "no, stop kissing my neck" but do it very playfully and not push me away that is a sign to keep going, but if they freeze up and get serious you know they want you to really stop. When their words do not match their body language, I know that this is where they want you to step in, assert control and make a decision to continue. This is where it's critical to not drop the ball as this is a test where they are looking to you for guidance and it's up to you to show it to them. This is where they want the men to be men and many AFC 's unfortunately not know any better and drop the ball here.

Dwacon (Diamonds Aren't a Girl's Best Friend... bounce.to/vibrators):
> AdamK: "There's a guy who does a web site called Netvideogirls.com."

Dwacon: We discussed this guy on both Mystery's PUA and also on Mindlist and the conclusion was that these are staged. Just thought I'd share ;^D

Insider: I checked out that site (Netvideogirls.com) because I think it would be very helpful to have video documentation of actual seduction processes happening in the real world. After giving this website a looksee, I suspect that there is one of three conclusions, and am not completely sure which one, though further investigation would warrant here.

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION ONE: (which I am leaning towards): These vids are fake, simply acted out; and acted out rather well. This would include the so-called "reject" vids to give the effect of realism on the site. State laws require every model in such a production to sign release forms, so I am not certain how he could obtain one from the "reject" actresses that don't want to participate. I also am assuming that the powers-that-be would simply shut him down unless he was operating within the umbrella of the law. The other indication to me was noticing how the most of the chicks who show up at his door go from being very shy school-girl-esq, to sucking cock like veteran porn actresses. This shows they've been around the block a few times, brother! Newbie women don't suck cock that good, so the chycks that I saw from the site do not seem so "innocent" to me. With some of the chicks, it's just blatantly obvious when they show up wearing no underwear.

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION TWO: The vids are real, however, the chicks who answer the ads probably realize in the back of their mind that they may need to put out for some dork in order to get through the first door into modeling. The "guy" behind the camera certainly seems likable and he speaks nicely to them, but it's all basic fluff shit convo that, to me anyway, unlike SS , does not seem to have anything that would induce a trance state that would allow him to just simply start fondling and then fucking these brawds within minutes of meeting them.

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION THREE: That simply holding a video camera in front of these chycks triggers an "exhibitionist" quality in them, and after a certain point, they go completely wild. This possibility seems to be far fetched though, maybe this is what placing an ad for calender models attracts. If that be the case, then it might be worth it if any SS bro wants to duplicate this same experiment himself. There may also be cultural differences here. I come from the Northeast U.S. and perhaps Southern California chycks are just simply sluttier and easier.

I do see the value of viewing seduction in the real world as it happens, yet I question whether or not this site is genuine in terms of what we, as PUAs would be looking for. To quote Mystery: "Get OFFLINE for a bit. Go IN-FIELD. Get back INTO the game. The game is played IN-FIELD not online. This is your call to action." and I think that's what I'll do.

Toecutter:
> Ross: I would really like you to get that I am not arguing with you, Mark. From your perspective and experience, every word you say is true. But like a fish, so used to being in water, you have no concept of "dry", you are so used to walking through the world in a body that looks good enough to attract women on sight (you've mentioned how women compliment your looks and body), it is hard for you to see or comment on what is required for guys who aren't so blessed.

Toecutter: Ross, I met a guy from Cliff's list who e-mailed me to meet me the other week. He was an SSer and studies your stuff religiously. He claims he is getting really good, but he is not regularly getting laid. And he emulated a couple of your behaviours that I felt were unhealthy. The second of them was this one of calling himself ugly and talking about the good looking guys like me. I hope he won't mind me talking about him here since I leave him anonymous and I said most of this to his face also (although that was a private discussion and this is public. I am mind reading here a little bit ... no offence if I am a bit off base, eh?) First, let's go back to the first behaviour. The first behaviour is that he will not do clubs and bars. Now, this is just plain ludicrous for anyone who claims to be a seductionist. It is like a ice-hockey player refusing to play NHL hockey and only playing in the Mexican League. Why? It is where the game is played. It is where the girls go hoping to meet a man. It is efficient. All the girls are grouped together, and although they have bitch shields, they are there because perhaps, maybe they just MIGHT meet their Prince Charming. Married women don't go (unless they want to meet a man). It is all single women. So a club puts a PU into context. It is in the correct context. So why doesn't this guy work clubs and pubs really? I mean he says it is because of the noise and the alcohol, but I could tell that he has shyness issues. He pretends to be full of bravado, and all it was some extreme aversion he had to drunk people and the noise. He said these were the only things, but I don't believe him. Because you can always find bars where it is not SO noisy, and within those bars you can always find girls who are not drunk. Especially before midnight when none of them are drunk. So this guy has the same shyness issues that you have and I have and everyone has. But this guy won't get over his. He walks into a club sober, and walks around to see what is there. Everyone is there in groups and he is there alone. My first approach for the evening is difficult alone, too, and I understand how this can be intimidating. But the only answer is to beat the fear. And everyone there is in groups. And he sees a 3 set with 2 beautiful girls and a smooth well dressed guy, and he wimps out. He feels out of place. He feels as if everyone is a member of a club, and he is not invited. He feels like everyone knows each other and they are all looking at him. He leaves without approaching a single set, and tells himself that either of those 2 girls would be easier to approach if they were alone in a coffee shop or shopping mall. And he is right. If you don't have a group set opener, they would be easier to approach. And they wouldn't have bitch shields. So he has not beaten his fear of approaching IMO. It is the only explanation that I can come up with to validate the behaviour. And certainly because of this behaviour he does not do bulk approaches. And that means he does not practice and get better. The next thing that I noticed is that he is always calling himself the ugly unattractive guy who can speak to women. Now, since he is seldom getting laid then this must really fuck with his self esteem. I mean in his self talk, as well as in public talk he is calling himself ugly all the time. This changes his interaction with a girl. I find it a little disturbing that you are egging him on by getting so much fun out of this conversation with Mark B. Mark B. has very little game. And it is obvious (no offence, Mark ... this is beyond the discussion about your game that goes nowhere). I personally feel that Mark B. measures his success differently to me. There is no way that Mark can isolate the club queen from her entourage, for example. But, Ross, when you push Mark's claims as if he can seduce any women with these methods you are not helping. Because if Mark B. can get laid using those methods (or lack thereof) then everyone has to believe that it is just on his looks. I understand that for the short term marketing goals of having customers say "if Ross can get laid, and he is the champion of the ugly guys (while Mystery and DD need no game just like that Mark B. guy) then using SS I can, too", but also privately it validates within the guy's life the fact that he can not get laid. He is able to externalize the blame for his current situation from himself to his looks that he has less control of he feels. (In fact, looks in a guy is about image more than anything and nearly every guy is capable of being attractive. The pity is that this guy I am talking about even with his current misplaced image is not that ugly.) And as he does that, it fucks with his self esteem. It is a self defeating belief as well as extremely limiting. Because after he has said that so often, and most definitely believes it, when he goes up to a girl believing that he is ugly and disgusting, that absolutely is telegraphed through his channels of communication (body language, posture, facial expressions, muscle tension, voice speed, voice tempo, voice tonality, words, etc.). And if he can not believe that he is an attractive, desirable man, how can a woman? So a move that might be sexually bold for me because I believe I am attractive, and am thus playing with her and flirting, when he watches and tries to emulate and model it, his belief makes him telegraph that he is a dirty little deviate of a slimy man because he is doing the same move but believing that he is unattractive. So this belief changes the ENERGY between him and a woman. And it in itself ensures that he will not get laid regularly. Add this belief to the fact that he is not doing mass approaches in nightspots that may change that belief through trial and error and the success that is accumulated through knocking on more doors, and he is doomed to have evolution take care of his sorry arse. Which is a pity really. Because with the thought and work he put into this, and the good system he is using, he kind of deserves to breed. It is sad IMO. So I ask you to be a little more long sighted with this talking about how ugly you are and how easy it is for the good-looking guys and not going to clubs, because there are people out here reading what you say. And these words and behaviours are capable of changing beliefs and are intimately linked with success with women. They are both bad beliefs. I suggest you change them. Because being an attractive man is nothing more than good grooming and self talk.

Max: Cliff, many months ago you wrote in a newsletter that by your observation, the "direct approach" used by Mark B. and others was not based on looks. Ross appears to disagree. What are your comments on this?

Clifford: It's been my experience that looks alone are not the whole story. Sure, some really good looking guys are going to get preferential treatment. No question about it from some women. But many have been burned by good looking guys and they will tell you (and they could be lying) that if a guy is too good looking they won't give him the time of day. I used to hang around with Dr. Ray who is a very good looking guy and many women wanted nothing to do with him (he was pretty successful with many because he was very good at SS and he approached a good number of them - but my point is that looks alone did not make the sale).

I used to go out with Orly who you may have read a lot about a long time ago on my emails. She told me about a year and a half after we broke up that after going out to clubs and bars very frequently since we broke up that there was "not one" guy who approached her as a real gentleman that attracted her in all that time. I had a date last week with a stunning model who hasn't been with a guy in two years (yet she's 23 and works as a bartender in one of the most popular clubs here). Women have a different problem than we do - many of them find it hard to find a guy that they want to go out with. Alex, a PUA here in Montreal, has been asking women (as his pick up line) how would they like to be approached by a guy and many of them told him that they rarely get approached and it's even rarer for them to meet someone they like.

Looks are better to have than not to, but charm, a sense of humour, the ability to take action and approach, and a warmth, I think, will get you further overall than a guy relying only on his looks to succeed.