I have a pic posted....with my Mom!

HouseOfFire:
>Ross: To anyone with any brains or experience, I believe his [Mystery's] approach comes off as insecure and defensive.

HouseOfFire: A rule of thumb in sales is to never attack the competition. You've given a lesson in that rule. To borrow from your book, it's like one of Mystery's troops wounded one of yours in a border dispute, and you responded with an ALL OUT NUCLEAR ATTACK!
>Ross: TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE? How dare YOU [Mystery] hold yourself out as the final authority on "truth"...you sound like my Bible Banging Brothers, Alan and Steve...

HouseOfFire: You're taking the position that everyone who says "if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't" is holding themselves out to be the final authority on the truth. This goes too far, in my opinion.
>Ross: I think that style of "MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY" will succeed in impressing people with ZERO self-confidence and ZERO ability to judge or trust their own thinking. So that is what he [Mystery] is going to attract, both in male "followers" and in women.

HouseOfFire: I never heard anyone call Mystery a guru. Mystery does not have followers, Mystery has fans. I'm one of them. In a big way. Because I've taken material of his to the field and had it work like a charm. His openers (the ones I've used) are golden. His idea of befriending group members other that the target feels so natural and is so effective I have a hard time seeing how I ever neglected to do it.
>Ross: Mys has some heavy parental messages, probably from a father-figure, about life being difficult and people basically being shiftless, weak, lazy-bastards who need to be beaten into submission or bullied into doing things "THE RIGHT WAY".

HouseOfFire: Mystery says in effect, "stop finding excuses, get off your ass, and get your life together!" This is using a parental voice which many people respond to, it is not being dominated by a parental voice.As you rightly point out, Mystery goes too far in dismissing the potential value of prep-work. Prep-work can make the de-shying process less difficult and lead to quicker results. But I think Mystery's opinion is that a lot of people struggling with shyness will sit around doing nothing and the prospect of an easy solution will keep them sitting around, waiting to avail themselves of that easy solution, all the while continuing to do nothing. Another point to consider is that most of the hard work is not going to be real, but is only in the imagination of the shy person. If a person starts out with some good openers, like Mystery's, they're likely to have some good experiences early on, which will help a lot. I'm going to throw in my two cents here, since I've travelled that road from extreme, pathetic, overwhelming shyness to doing all kinds of walk-ups with more or less nonchalance. For me, a key step was realizing that the weirdest things I was doing (e.g., verbal blunders) came out of efforts to hide my shy feelings. I then realized that it wasn't a big deal if women noticed I was shy, and that some of them actually found that to be attractive. After I stopped worrying about whether I appeared shy, things rapidly got a lot easier. Please! Let's keep it civil and try to be tolerant of opposing views. Personal attacks tend to reflect badly on the attacker.

Clifford: It is my basic policy to try and edit out all personal remarks, because that won't help anyone get laid, but unfortunately I haven't a lot of time to work on getting these emails out and some things slip through the cracks. I try as much as possible to only leave in comments that are relevant, but it doesn't always work out that way. I think there's a lot of mudslinging in the.speed-seduction.community that is totally unnecessary (perhaps it is the nature of all us alpha males...) and I would like these emails to be a refuge from that.

GameMaster:
>Ross: GameMaster (Comments from private email about online dating): I know the top 5% get deluged with mail and sometimes they don't have the time to write back. I'm sticking primarily with the 34 and up crowd, I've found that is pretty much the threshold to be able to appeal to their sense of fair play when it comes to a reply. Lot's of very pretty girls on match.com down here just because the bar scene is so brutal and the nitelife in this city has sort of lost it's luster with most people. Still a pro- players town. Ross: I like that distinction; 34 and up. It may also help to pick women who have already been married once; divorced women aren't so much in a hurry to run to the altar again and are less likely to demand "Mr. Right".

GM : Any girls over the age of 32 that have never been married have issues that have prevented them from becoming so. And you're right, these girls are fairly selective, having had the benefit of experience, but that's something you capitalize on with these skills. They've never been slobberknockered like that before.
> Ross: Do you have a form letter? I've been playing with a few and have one that gets a HUGE response (especially since I hid my profile....now, they can't check my profile and eliminate or pigeon hole me).

GM : I don't have a form letter or anything. I spend some time with their profile to pick out something of interest and mirror that back to them with a witty note. And something else I've done is surf www.americansingles.com and www.kiss.com for more detailed info from the girls who have posted pics. Most of the time you will find them on another service with much more information about likes and dislikes but www.Match.com has by far more women of quality than any of the other services I've found.
> Clifford: You dangle the carrot, too. I am sure we ALL are curious now to see your letter.

GM : Cliff, the only thing I can tell you is that flippant doesn't seem to work and neither does serious or deep...until you get your foot in the door. And persistence can pay off properly calculated. You can't appear desperate, but you can come across as a good guy with a genuine intuition, or several, about a chick. If they bite on the intuition angle that's a good time to get them on the phone.

Clifford: That comment originally was to Ross based on his comment (repeated above) about his form letter that gets a "HUGE response." We're still waiting, Ross.....!
> Ross: How do you handle the pic problem? I am STILL getting eliminated WAY too often, based on my pic. I can't refuse to send one or I won't get a meeting...at some point they want to see what I look like. I am thinking of setting a challenge frame...seeing if I can get them to chat on the phone for some light patterning/voice charm and THEN send it. What are your experiences...remember, I do NOT have a profile up...that has worked to get me more initial response to my emails.

GM : I have a pic posted....with my Mom! : ) OK, I know that's fucking evil but it was the best photo I could find in the archives. And it doesn't matter if the thing is 5 years old either, which mine is, but I had some girls go through a stack of pics to find the most flattering image they could find. I think the real key is to hook em' with intrigue once you get over this "send me a pic" deal.
> Ross: Yes, but at some point they DO see a pic of you and decide they want to talk to you because your looks are ok, or they LIKE your looks. So...what are you doing to deal with the pic problem and how would you handle it if you just don't photograph fucking well?

GM : These girls won't reply to anyone that doesn't have a pic posted, and believe me, the camera hates my ass. But again, somewhere sometime when the stars were perfectly aligned somebody took a photo of you that you really like.
>Clifford: You can give a woman orgasms just by talking to her and some women shouldn't be called for 5 days after you meet her. And, now that I think about it, telling some women they are beautiful is the wrong thing to do. But none of these are absolutes -- they are all situation specific but definitely not complete nonsense. MB: Well, call me naive but I have yet to find myself or anyone else who can give women an orgasm just by talking to them, not calling a woman for 5 days and then getting a positive response after 1st meeting from her or telling her she is beautiful and have it backfire. So far it seems that these things are supposed to be theoretically true yet in the real world.........Besides why would I want a woman who cannot take an honest complement, low self esteem????? NO thanks.

GM : You're not talking to them, you are MindFucking the shit out of them. And yes, it can be done. No touch orgasms, squirting, orgasms while they're blowing you....only your imagination limits your results. And never tell a woman she's beautiful, Bro! Make them feel beautiful and hold the compliments. And while I agree with your statement about low self-esteem, leave the compliments for the AFC 's...keep your distance from these beggars.
> Dwacon (Saajan Ke Ghar Jaana Hain www.dwacon.com): GameMaster (Comments from private email about online dating): I know the top 5% get deluged with mail and sometimes they don't have the time to write back. Dwacon: That's why I've adopted a "no mercy" approach when sarging a woman. Their lack of logic is painful.

GM : Good attitude, these chicks don't deserve any breaks and I sure as hell don't allow them any online. If they don't write back, I generally take a classy approach to an appeal to get them back in the mix, but I nailed this one chick last week that I had smack down destroyed because of some pissy reply I got from her. That doesn't always work but it did on this occasion, and I "was" surprised to find she looked like a young Cybill Sheppard as she had claimed.

NightLight9:
> A guru master: These days I've been having crazy successes by using a 'qualification frame'. I just boldly ask her questions....do you have a BF ? Do you live with your parents? What do you do for a living? etc. etc. and then saying, "Have a drink with me." Actually, I don't ONLY do that, but I'm giving you a bare skeleton. You guys are going to have to wait for the book to come out (soon, I promise) to get to the good stuff : )
>Ross: I think this is VERY powerful and useful, especially for girls under 25 and super-hotties.

NightLight9: You can't just ask questions like this without framing them and contextualizng if you hope to close. You can ask these if you have rapport and have established that you are someone she wants to converse with. The reasons are two fold. 1) it indicates a great deal of interest in her personal life (you really need a transition to start this type of questioning); 2) if she hasn't decided that she wants to talk to you, this line of questioning doesn't change that in a positive way, and by taking up conversation time it's closing the window on your opportunity to change that in a positive way. It seemed like this would be confusing to newbies (unless I'm the one who is confused and you do just start peppering them with questions, if so, explain).
>Ross: Bingo. Mys has some heavy parental messages, probably from a father-figure, about life being difficult and people basically being shiftless, weak, lazy-bastards who need to be beaten into submission or bullied into doing things "THE RIGHT WAY".

NightLight9: Note that this approach is extremely effective with certain women. Mystery's approach is very overpowering. It comes across in everything he does. Many women like that.
>Mark B.: Over the holidays I spent the entire time, other than with family, with one HB who has become somewhat of a girlfriend it seems, although I am still keeping my options open. Whenever I wanted to bang her I said "hey, you look so hot and sexy right now, I want to make love to you" and began kissing her and undressing her and slept with her every time. I wanted her to do a strip show for me so I simply asked her "I would like you to do a strip show for me" and she did.

NightLight9: This is very much how I do things with women I'm seeing. I say "I want a back massage, will you give me one?" Add "please" when necessary. I don't ask for sex. I just do stuff to them until they rip my clothes off, but still the attitude is very similar. The other day I said to a women, "I am in more dire need of blowjob than any man in the free world." She happily obliged. Right before she started she said "You are so spoiled" and I said "Maybe." Anyway, I agree that you should set your relationships up in such a way that you are being blunt in your commentary and the expectations you have from her. It makes life much easier.
> Mark B.: When I met her, I said "I would like to take you out with me." Then just focused on being fun and easy, kissed her on the 1st date, told her she was hot and that I wanted her. How much easier could this be? Why fuck around with techniques when all it takes is a simple direct expression of what you want while being focused on her, fun and relaxed with a smile.

NightLight9: I'd like to watch you work. I can't do what you described because when I do, women say no. Maybe it's my looks, maybe it's my personality or maybe it's something else, but it just doesn't work. I have to be funny, interesting and create a connection first. Then I can be direct and it works... sometimes. To the point, since communication is so multi-leveled it would be interesting to see you in action. Where are you? I'm in Seattle. Let's get together sometime and shoot the shit.

Clifford: Mark is in Toronto.

NEEDHELPBAD: On a touchy subject - has anyone out there ever had problems getting it up? I'm a young guy but I've been having the disastrous "erectile disfunction" problem quite often for some time. Is there anyone who has experienced this problem before? Right now I use Viagra but I don't want to get stuck using it for the rest of my life. Obviously this makes entering a sexual relationship a BILLION times more difficult. On a few occasions, women have dumped me point blank because of my "problem" and I simply can't go on living like this. I've been to psychotherapy (I'm quite confident that this is psychogenic and not physiological) before but it wasn't useful (probably specific therapist related) and I really feel stuck (and actually quite desperate for a solution). I would really appreciate help with this.

Clifford: Someone I know had a period where this was a problem also. He used Viagra a few times and it was kind of like training wheels for him, and soon he was riding without them... My initial thoughts are that as long as the Viagra is working, just use that. From what I understand, there are a few other things due out shortly from medical science which will take over. Another thing you (or someone here) could try (and let us know the results) is www.lifekeyinc.com which appears to be quasi-Doctor approved.

Kbud:
>AdamK.: Dean: The best and safest way to get a tan is to use the solariums/sun beds. When you expose yourself to the sun you are exposing yourself to both UV A & B rays, one gives you the tan, the other gives you sunburn and puts you at risk of skin cancer. The Solariums/Sun beds only expose you to the UV B rays and thus eliminate the risk of skin cancer. Constant tanning though, even from a sun bed, can age you faster. A good Aloe Vera moisturizer is recommended, this also helps in relieving sunburn. Also, a tan from a sun bed doesn't prevent you from getting burnt, unlike a real tan and you still need to use sunscreen. AdamK: This is just plain wrong. Tanning beds are even worse than getting a tan from the real sun. Tanning salon owners like to argue that you can more accurately "moderate" the amount of sun that you're getting, with the beds. Kind of like moderating how much arsenic you drink. Truth is: You're holding extreme rays only 2 inches from your skin. Ask any independent dermatologist: The quickest way to skin cancer is to use a tanning bed. I've seen young (19 year old) girls with big hunks of flesh that had to be taken out of their face... scarred for life... because of their use of tanning beds. Here's a tip: I have a great, year-around tan. How? Sunless tanners have made incredible progress in the last two years. Check out the web site: www.sunless.com The best is one called Au Courant. But I've used Banana Boat spray on my legs and have had several women comment and ask how I was able to get such a nice tan in the beginning of June. ($7 at Walgreens, and it's 100% safe). Experiment with which brand works best for you. Application of a good sunless tanner can take some practice, but when you get it right... it's amazing! A good sunless tanner will leave you tanned like a natural tan. Not orangey sunless tanner.ems or yellow.

Kbud: My present gf has been doing beauty pageants most of her life. She has her own tanning bed and has been laying for three years. However, she says sunless tanners work, but only for about two to three days and then the skin gradually fades back to its original color. How long do the ones from sunless.com work, such as Au Courant? Also, Dean where did you get your information that tanning beds do not put you at risk of skin cancer?

On a Separate Note: My gf is a model, and whenever we go out guys heads turn. We've been together for 3 months, her longest previous relationship was all of 3 weeks. She told me "she's not bored with me because I don't call her five times a day like her previous AFC boyfriends, and don't smother her with attention and act like I'm obsessed." I said, You're lucky I'm not bored with you! I try not to do stuff with her more than three times a week, and whenever we're together and I have to go, she begs me to stay. My fellows, there is truth in the axiom "Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

Clifford: One thing that I have found to be massively successful with women is to almost never tell them what I have done. For example, they ask you "What did you do last night?" and I will (as naturally as possible) change the subject. I make it a conscious rule to not let them put together where I was, what I was doing, etc. when I wasn't with them. And I am relentless about this, I have it constantly in mind. I have become a man of mystery that they cannot figure out and I am certain that this plays a major role. Try it, it really, really works but you have to do it in a very natural, easy way as if you aren't trying to do this or else it comes across as weird.

Jason M.: Last year when I went to Ross' magick seminar in L.A., he recommended to a group of us at lunch one day that we go see Marilyn Seargent at www.nlpla.com for more specific NLP training and consulting. Eventually, I was able to take his advice, and I attended her Core Transformation course. Now, I already have done a NLP prac and Master Prac (with Dave G. and Rex Sikes respectively), but I was mightily impressed with the CT material. It's extremely effective and SO totally simple that anyone who can read out loud can get really impressive results even on the first time. AND it works in any situation, once you have even a minimal level of rapport. I'm writing to let you know that Marilyn is offering a **2 for 1 deal on her upcoming NLP practitioner course**. The reality is, after 9/11, and with the economy the way it is, a lot of people are tightening their belts. And sometimes they're tightening them so much that they're cutting off circulation to their brain to the point that the OBVIOUS benefits of full-on, real-deal NLP training do not always sink in right away. But for anyone who's had a taste of the kind of success that Speed Seduction and NLS can have, if they want more, then the next logical step is where SS came from. So here's what people should know first, and they can e-mail me (Jason at luceo@earthlink.net ) or just call Marilyn at 1-800-807-5666 if they have any other questions: The training is 9am-6pm, 1 weekend a month from January to July, and is audio/video taped in case you need to miss a day or two. Weekends 1 and 2 are intro modules that can be taken independently, and I'm really looking forward to Weekend 2, which is their Hemispheric therapy weekend. I've had a few people do that stuff with me and it's pretty powerful! The 2 for 1 special is $1450, and according to them: "If you prefer monthly payments, interest-free installments are available by pre- authorized Visa or Master Card credit cards withdrawals, or post-dated checks." But trust me, they are REALLY generous with how you make your payments, because they know that what is most important is that they have an opportunity to teach what they know. So if money is tight right now, they will be happy to work with you. I probably don't even need to mention that EVERY person I've ever known who took an NLP prac ended up making enough extra money by the end of the course to pay for it anyway, although I had studied NLP enough that I only was making an extra $5k and had my relocation paid for from Austin to California to work for an Emmy-award winning animation company (Babylon5, ST:Voyager, Twisted Metal etc.)... blah blah blah, brag, brag, brag. : P And of course, if you've already studied SS at all, integrating the methodology that SS came from will only create more choices for you in how to apply it to getting more, of everything you want. And yes, I'm hopefully going to be able to assist them on this training, so if anyone is wondering if I'm just one of their stooges, the answer is yes. So my opinion is obviously biased, but if you want anyone's opinion, wouldn't someone who's done each of his NLP trainings with completely different trainers all around the country count a bit more than the churn-em-out product of someone they'll never see again? You decide. I'm currently doing TOTALLY FREE Core Transformation sessions (usually 45-90 minutes) by phone (well, some people pay me because they just don't feel right unless they do, but I leave that up to them), so if anyone is interested they can e-mail me about that too. I'm pretty booked at the moment, but if they're interested I sometimes have cancellations so they may not have to wait more than a week.

Ronnie: (Separate thoughts...) "I need to get a consensus from the readers here. Those of you may get a kick out of watching a newly released "B" movie called Shallow Hal. In this movie, the main character named Hal is this guy who is totally into how a chyck looks, and has his fair share of strikeouts. He gets dumped by a hottie he went out with named Jill (played by Susan Ward). As the movie progresses, Tony Robbins makes an appearance as himself, where he hypnotizes the main character (Hal) into only seeing the inner beauty of a woman. As a result, etc. etc."

Beauty may only be skin deep, but ugliness goes straight thru to the bone. Most "fat chicks" I have met are bitchy, bossy and embittered. The kindness in their heart is a grain of sand in comparison to their overall weight.

A couple of years ago, they made that movie called "The Tao of Steve", which had an ending that ultimately circumvented the PU lifestyle. It never ceases to amaze me how Hollywood continues to reinforce and mutate it's silly altruistic social conditioning on the masses...

Dean: Real Life Sarge I was at this club the other day with one of my mates. Anyway, I'm scouting around for chicks and my mate comes up to me and conversation goes as follows... He said "You got to come and have a crack at this chick." I said "Why?" He said "I've just had a crack at her and she burnt me." I said "Why'd she burn you?" He said "She told me she had a boyfriend" Always wanting to out do my mate and show him how it's done... I said "Ok, show me where she is, I'll have a crack." I followed my mate to the dance floor and he pointed her out to me. Not bad, a 7 on the Richter scale. The dance floor wasn't too busy, so there was no obstruction to my view and she was right over the other side of the dance floor, probably a good 20 feet away. Anyway, I looked directly at her and pointed to her until she noticed me pointing. When she saw me pointing she looked at me and did the 'Who me?' self point. I nodded my head 'yes' and motioned for her to come over to me. She came over to me and my opening line was... I said "I heard that you've got a boyfriend." She said "What me? No, he is just a friend" I said "So that means you're open for options?" She nodded yes. With that I grabbed the waist of her jeans and pulled her close to me and kissed her, full open mouth, tongues, etc. As easy as that. What do you guys think?